posted April 13, 2013 01:54 AM              

"School forcibly snatches away children from a world full of the mystery of God's own handiwork, full of the suggestiveness of personality. It is a mere method of discipline which refuses to take into account the individual. It is a manufactory specially designed for grinding out uniform results. It follows an imaginary straight line of the average in digging its channel of education. But life's line is not the straight line, for it is fond of playing the see-saw with the line of average, bringing upon its head the rebuke of the school. For according to the school life is perfect when it allows itself to be treated as dead, to be cut into symmetrical conveniences. And this was the cause of my suffering when I was sent to school....my mind had to accept the tight-fitting encasement of the school which, being like the shoes of a mandarin woman, pinched and bruised my nature on all sides and at every movement. I was fortunate enough in extricating myself before insensibility set in."
~ Rabindranath Tagore

posted April 13, 2013 02:01 AM              

These impulsions of destiny frequently are stifled by dysfunctional perceptions and unreceptive surroundings, so that calling appears in the myriad symptoms of difficult, self-destructive, accident-prone, 'hyper' children - all words invented by adults in defense of their misunderstanding... I want us to envision that what children go through has to do with finding a place in the world for their specific calling. They are trying to live two lives at once, the one they were born with and the one of the place and among the people they were born into. The entire image of a destiny is packed into a tiny acorn, the seed of a huge oak on small shoulders. And its call rings loud and persistent and is as demanding as any scolding voice from the surroundings. The call shows in the tantrums and obstinacies, in the shyness and retreats, that seem to set the child against our world but that may be protections of the world it comes with and comes from...

The War Against Children, as Peter and Ginger Breggin entitle their recent book, threatens American children with an epidemic of troubles caused by the methods that would cure them of their trouble. The familiar evils of other ages reappear in the guises of helping programs... As in colonial days, drugs to ease the coolies’ pain and increase their indifference will be provided by those who cause the pain.

Children have become the sacrificial victims of Saturn-Moloch, as in the ancient Mediterranean. They are also the scapegoats for scientific fears of the anomalous, of the excessive, and of the paradigm-shifting movements of imagination that first appear as new -- that is, in the young. What is already taking place in our "mental health facilities," where drugs are dispensed with less shame than condoms, would have benumbed during their childhoods probably every one of the extraordinary people told about in this book.

The vicious inadequacy of treatment is not intended by practitioners, who mean well. It results willy-nilly from the inadequacy, or viciousness, or theory. So long as the statistics of normalizing developmental psychology determine the standards against which the extraordinary complexities of a life are judged, deviations become deviants. Diagnosis coupled with statistics is the disease; yet diagnosis coupled with statistics is the very name -- Diagnostic and Statistical Manual (or DSM) -- of the universally accepted guide produced by the American Psychiatric Association and used by the profession, the health care providers, and the insurance payers. Yet the whole of that thick, heavy, and lightweight book provides accounts of the various ways the daimons affect human fate and how sadly and strangely they often appear in our civilization.

This book prefers to connect pathology with exceptionality, exchanging the term "abnormal" for "extraordinary" and letting the extraordinary be the vision against which our ordinary lives are examined. Rather than case history, a psychologist would read human history; rather than biology, biography; rather than applying the epistemology of Western understanding to the alien, the tribal, and nontechnological cultures, we would let their anthropology (their stories of human nature) be applied to ours.

posted April 13, 2013 02:41 AM              

quote:

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Originally posted by T:
This was a nice one to wake up to:

“Any change, any loss, does not make us victims. Others can shake you, surprise you, disappoint you, but they can’t prevent you from acting, from taking the situation you’re presented with and moving on. No matter where you are in Life, no matter what your situation, you can always do something. You always have a choice and the choice can be power”. Blaine Lee

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posted April 13, 2013 07:48 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Heart--Shaped Cross:

Incidentally,
that's my favorite line from Emerson,
but I prefer it as he wrote it:

"Heartily know..."

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"Give all to love, obey thine heart!"

What an amazing coincidence that you know the poem; I used to have it memorized. After I posted this yesterday, my family went out for a long drive, and it occurred to me that I had written verily instead of heartily. But I was too far from my computer to correct myself.

posted April 13, 2013 08:21 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Heart--Shaped Cross:
But, would you expect any less, from someone with Uranus exalted Conjunct the Sun, Venus, and Midheaven in the 11th? Do I still have to mention my Aquarius Moon, or the fact that Uranus is Parallel both my Sun and Moon? Like you, I don't list these things in order to talk about myself, but to back-up a serious claim.

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Holy cow! Erm...I mean...Wow, so much Uranus! So are you Scorpio Uranus conjunct sun? Some say Uranus is exalted in Scorpio.

quote:

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Originally posted by Heart--Shaped Cross:
Try to understand: In the modern world, among spiritual seekers, there is almost nothing more conformist than the rejection of religious traditions.

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I understand that all too well. Partially in an effort to be non-conformist, at one point I took up Calvinism. I was a hardcore Calvinist for about six years in my 20's.

quote:

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Originally posted by Heart--Shaped Cross:
And let's be clear: Waving my "Christian badge" doesn't get me passes or win me any favors.

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No? I know plenty of people who want to see my Christian badge, and hold me at bay when it's not forthcoming.

quote:

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Originally posted by Heart--Shaped Cross:
What they don't grasp is that I'm attempting a revival of the faith of the first Christians; most of whom were not followers as much as forgers of Christian theology. Traditions, even ancient traditions, can be living, breathing, evolving entities.

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After studying the Bible extensively I have concluded that it teaches predestination and salvation by election, and that the Bible is dead serious when it says, ""Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it." (Matthew 7:13) And I think that hell is the ultimate divisive concept; with it being inextricably part of Christianity, I feel compelled to reject Christianity altogether.

And with all due respect, I believe that whatever personal religion one cobbles together using the raw material of the Bible bears only a superficial resemblance to the ancient traditions. After all, in ancient times, God spoke directly to the people. Furthermore the people back then didn't have access to the Scriptures but relied on the rabbis.

quote:

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Originally posted by Heart--Shaped Cross:
My Jupiter is in Leo (another suggestion of religious individuality) tightly squaring Chiron. This makes me a Chironic figure in the sphere of religion and religious identity. I attempt to be a bridge (a Chironic word) between the "settlers" and the "nomads".

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My Jupiter is in Aries conjunct Chiron. I have also attempted to be a bridge...but my bridge is not doctrinal, philosophic or intellectual whatsoever. It is entirely based on love and acceptance. And time after time, I accept religious people, and they reject me. They burn my bridges. What then?

quote:

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Originally posted by Heart--Shaped Cross:
In addition to this function, I attempt to bridge the gap between mysticism and atheism. Much as Jung did, I present coherent psychological explanations for the employing of mystical terminology; Jupiter in the 8th ruling my Sagittarius Mercury, Mars, and Neptune in the 12th; Neptune ruling my Pisces South Node in the 3rd. Jupiter makes more aspects than any other planet in my chart, and my chart ruler is in the 9th. It's Saturn.

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Let me think...were you born around 1979?

And hello there Cappy rising, I'm a Cappy sun with Leo rising, Pisces moon, Aquarius Mercury. Scorpio north node.

Saturn in the the 9th explains your abiding interest in religion; Virgo NN would seem to favor concrete doctrine over airy-fairy New Age nonsense, wouldn't it?

quote:

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Originally posted by Heart--Shaped Cross:
If you see churches as hindrances, I imagine you must be opposed to the existence of different cultures, as well. You may appreciate them, as you say, but, ultimately, you wish to see them abolished and replaced with a single world culture, yes?

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I see divinity in aesthetics, and the variety of beauty in world cultures is, to me, a manifestation of spirituality. I wish no harm upon it. However, I can conceive of the world being made more beautiful by global unity...yes. I can imagine there being a more enlightened aesthetic.

For instance, if all people get to the point where we can see aurus, and interpret color with greater awareness, we may find universal agreement regarding the optimal placement of colors. Who knows?

quote:

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Originally posted by Heart--Shaped Cross:
I don't care. I just honestly feel that any attempt to force that situation would be a violent act.

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I agree.

posted April 13, 2013 08:22 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by mirage29:
Faith & Heart--Shaped Cross & Everybody here...

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posted April 13, 2013 08:25 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by SunChild:
Thank you Faith!

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posted April 13, 2013 12:25 PM              

Oh, the humanity!

Faith,

November 6, '78, boston
Ascendant at 20' Cap

I hope you'll be able to indulge me here, as I've written a good deal more than I intended. Even if you have the patience, you may not have the time for such an in-depth discussion. Please, don't feel rushed or pressured in any way to respond as thoroughly as I have done. You owe me nothing, and may dispense with reading all that I have written -- the composition of which was done as much for my own development as for the fostering of understanding between myself and anyone who may chance to read it. I do, however, think you will find it worthy of your attention.

quote:

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No? I know plenty of people who want to see my Christian badge, and hold me at bay when it's not forthcoming.

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Absolutely. But, that's just the first question. As soon as you hold it up, they want to take a closer look. The badge is only authentic if it bears an exact resemblance to their own.

quote:

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After studying the Bible extensively I have concluded that it teaches predestination and salvation by election,and that the Bible is dead serious when it says, ""Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it." (Matthew 7:13) And I think that hell is the ultimate divisive concept; with it being inextricably part of Christianity, I feel compelled to reject Christianity altogether.

And with all due respect, I believe that whatever personal religion one cobbles together using the raw material of the Bible bears only a superficial resemblance to the ancient traditions. After all, in ancient times, God spoke directly to the people. Furthermore the people back then didn't have access to the Scriptures but relied on the rabbis.

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We will often find what we look for, particularly in a book as comprehensive, and full of contradictions, as the Holy Bible. Teachings are given for many species of religious seeker, and it is inevitable that one will gravitate to the ones which appear clearest in the light of their own perspective. As we change and grow, certain verses recede into the background while others, which we overlooked, become more prominent. Some are subordinated to others, which were once subordinate to them, and some simply take on entirely new meanings.

The verses which may be taken to suggest predestination and salvation by election are there, I believe, to indicate the necessity of abandoning the personal will. We cannot grab at God, but we can release our grip and discover ourselves in His hand.

As you probably know, the Bible itself was "cobbled together" from a wide array of gospels and other scriptural writings, during the Council of Nicea. Most of what passed for scriptural and doctrinal now passes for apocryphal. Archaeological findings and historical scholarship have presented us with a view of the early Christians which is anything but homogeneous. There were many groups, as there are today, taking various stances on the teachings of Christ, and, to a large extent, they were accepting of one another. Unlike today, they understood that the Spirit could speak to them directly, so their scriptures were not merely handed down, but composed on the spot. In a more recent century, the revelation of George Fox, the founder of the Quakers (now The Religious Society of Friends) comes closest to this wisdom:

"Then what had any to do with the scriptures, but as they came to the Spirit that gave them forth? You will say to me, 'Christ saith this, and the apostles say this;' but what canst thou say? Art thou a child of the Light, and hast thou walked in the Light, and what thou speakest, is it inwardly from the Lord?"

As this quote suggests, those who made the spirit, the "indwelling Christ", primary were not beholden to either scriptures or rabbis. My own study of the early Christian movements suggests that they were highly revolutionary, and seldom dependent on rabbinical influence.

Christian symbolism and the teachings of Christ provided them with a framework into which they could pour their ongoing revelations and interpretations of doctrine, but the Spirit continued to speak and give dispensations appropriate to different times, places, and individuals. An emphasis was placed on the practices of meditation and pacifism, but much disagreement has always surrounded the "finer" points of doctrine.

My own understanding is that one chooses, or cobbles together, a type of Christianity which attempts to remain faithful to the revelations of Christ, as well as to one's own revelations. While challenging oneself, each man's conception should also be tailored to suit the specifications of his unique spiritual needs. The Christianity to which I subscribe is more Gnostic in its approach than the forms we recognize today. While there are basic principles which I insist upon, there is much more which I leave open to discretion. In other words, disagreement is not only welcome, it is encouraged -- for we are all different, and the doctrines which apply best to one person may not apply best to another.

As for Hell, and how it has been interpreted, I will say only two things: First, even Buddhist scriptures speak rather menacingly of various hellish realms into which the soul may fall. Some Gnostics argue that this is one of them. Disagreeable as it may be, "Hell" is a common aspect of many traditions, and perhaps more likely to unite than divide them. Many would agree that, not to be enlightened, is to exist in a kind of hell. My own understanding of the doctrine of "eternal damnation" is one you may be unfamiliar with. It is well explained by Valentin Tomberg, a student of Rudolph Steiner, "This subjective state of soul is neither long nor short -- it is as intense as eternity is." The perception of eternity arises with the abandonment of hope, which may be occasioned equally by either an experience of profound despair or profound bliss.

More of Tomberg's treatment here:
http://uranianheart.blogspot.com/2011/06/eternal-hell.html

quote:

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My Jupiter is in Aries conjunct Chiron. I have also attempted to be a bridge...but my bridge is not doctrinal, philosophic or intellectual whatsoever. It is entirely based on love and acceptance. And time after time, I accept religious people, and they reject me. They burn my bridges. What then?

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That's an intense placement, and I can see why you are drawn to a parsed-down, no frills spirituality. I do not blame you in the least; I understand not only why it would appeal to you, but why it would work for you.

To answer your question, "What then?", I would imagine that, according to your own teaching, you must try to meet them with love and acceptance. We are all flawed, even those we consider religious, or who merely consider themselves religious. The way is indeed narrow, and those who practice it faithfully are rare, whether they are Christians, Muslims, or "New Age Hippies".

Love and acceptance ought to be enough -- for me, it is a perfectly acceptable "no man's land"; a fine place for all of us to meet and come together, in order to discuss our differences. I believe there is such holy ground, not merely in the empty spaces between religions, but in the hearts of them, as well. Sometimes, though, it helps to speak the language of the locals, in order to gain admittance. By employing Christian terminology, and quoting scripture, I have led (and been led by) more than a few Christians to that place. From there, often, not only can they perceive their own faith more clearly, but the faiths of others, as well. I believe that, without that common language, they might never have chanced to go beyond language, as you have done. Of course, more frequently, they'll just call me an impostor the instant I suggest a more liberal reading of the text.

quote:

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And hello there Cappy rising, I'm a Cappy sun with Leo rising, Pisces moon, Aquarius Mercury. Scorpio north node.

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Hello there.

Very cool placements. I like to create "natal charts" for fun (I have notebooks full of them), and the Pisces Moon pops up pretty regularly. I suppose I envy that, to some extent.

quote:

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Saturn in the the 9th explains your abiding interest in religion; Virgo NN would seem to favor concrete doctrine over airy-fairy New Age nonsense, wouldn't it?

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It certainly does incline me to an appreciation for tradition and the more intellectual trappings of spirituality. Also, to an emphasis on the concrete practice of what is purest in religion - the mystical experience.

quote:

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I see divinity in aesthetics, and the variety of beauty in world cultures is, to me, a manifestation of spirituality. I wish no harm upon it. However, I can conceive of the world being made more beautiful by global unity...yes. I can imagine there being a more enlightened aesthetic.

For instance, if all people get to the point where we can see aurus, and interpret color with greater awareness, we may find universal agreement regarding the optimal placement of colors. Who knows?

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Beauty is one face of God, and the aesthetic experience, at its pitch, blends seamlessly into the mystical experience, as all colors of the spectrum come together in white light. As I like to say: Substance is the height of style; good form takes the form of the good.

I don't know if we will ever respond identically to certain colors or arrangements of color, although it is a fascinating idea. It seems that Venus is differently constellated in every chart.

Thank you for the opportunity to dialogue on these things more than superficially. It's rare that anyone here has the time or the inclination to invest so much, but it's something I live for. I wish you a pleasant and enlightening day.

posted April 13, 2013 04:26 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Heart--Shaped Cross:

Ascendant at 20' Cap

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I drew up your chart, your Mercury is conjunct my Venus, fancy that!

quote:

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Originally posted by Heart--Shaped Cross:
I hope you'll be able to indulge me here, as I've written a good deal more than I intended.

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It's par for the course when you're serious about religion...conversations always get long, don't they? Religion is just a long story in and of itself.

(edited for clarity I hope)

quote:

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Originally posted by Heart--Shaped Cross:
Even if you have the patience, you may not have the time for such an in-depth discussion.

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Thank you for your understanding. It's true I have more interest here than time.

quote:

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Originally posted by Heart--Shaped Cross:
Absolutely. But, that's just the first question. As soon as you hold it up, they want to take a closer look. The badge is only authentic if it bears an exact resemblance to their own.

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No, some people are satisfied, to the extent that they will allow interaction to continue, if I say I believe in Jesus. Anything is possible with people, you know?

quote:

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Originally posted by Heart--Shaped Cross:
The verses which may be taken to suggest predestination and salvation by election are there, I believe, to indicate the necessity of abandoning the personal will. We cannot grab at God, but we can release our grip and discover ourselves in His hand.

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I like your interpretation but don't see how it is Biblical.

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."

Acts 13:48 ESV

Whoever isn't appointed has hell to pay.

quote:

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Originally posted by Heart--Shaped Cross:
As this quote suggests, those who made the spirit, the "indwelling Christ", primary were not beholden to either scriptures or rabbis.

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Then why use the word Christ?

quote:

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Originally posted by Heart--Shaped Cross:
An emphasis was placed on the practices of meditation and pacifism, but much disagreement has always surrounded the "finer" points of doctrine.

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Which gave rise to violence.

quote:

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Originally posted by Heart--Shaped Cross:
More of Tomberg's treatment here:

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Interesting~ thank you. I will check it out later.

quote:

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Originally posted by Heart--Shaped Cross:
To answer your question, "What then?", I would imagine that, according to your own teaching, you must try to meet them with love and acceptance.

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I do, but as I said, they either excommunicate me or pester me for a confession of faith...with a very non-persuasive theology, no less. They seem to put too much importance on the redemptive potential of "easy believism."

quote:

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Originally posted by Heart--Shaped Cross:
Sometimes, though, it helps to speak the language of the locals, in order to gain admittance.

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I can't stomach Billy Graham.

quote:

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Originally posted by Heart--Shaped Cross:
Of course, more frequently, they'll just call me an impostor the instant I suggest a more liberal reading of the text.

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See how we are in the same boat? Just speaking different languages...

quote:

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Originally posted by Heart--Shaped Cross:
Very cool placements. I like to create "natal charts" for fun (I have notebooks full of them), and the Pisces Moon pops up pretty regularly. I suppose I envy that, to some extent.

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Wow, cool notebooks. Thanks for liking my moon. It's in the 8H.

quote:

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Originally posted by Heart--Shaped Cross:
Also, to an emphasis on the concrete practice of what is purest in religion - the mystical experience.

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Why spend time focusing on the less than pure, except for mere entertainment? Is there a difference between a "real" Christian and a theologian who behaves well? I guess my Aries energy is evident here.

quote:

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Originally posted by Heart--Shaped Cross:
Thank you for the opportunity to dialogue on these things more than superficially.

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Thank you, too, for the interesting conversation.

posted April 13, 2013 05:57 PM            

So as not to derail this thread even further, if you would like to respond, please meet me here at Hearth and Home.

Also: This old Shaker hymn sums up my spirituality pretty well, at this point: Simplicity. Are you familiar with the song?

I thought it was Quaker, but just realized it is Shaker. Big difference, surprisingly enough.

Last: I love the education quotes you posted above.

Best wishes

posted April 14, 2013 02:10 PM              

"Skepticism is the chastity of the intellect."
~ George Santayana

"If thou do ill, the joy fades, not the pains:
If well, the pain doth fade, the joy remains."
~ George Herbert

"Sum up at night, what thou hast done by day;
And in the morning, what thou hast to do.
Dress and undress thy soul..."
~ George Herbert

posted April 14, 2013 03:44 PM              

Ribbons from tenderest moods are spun,
and flowers drawn -- one by one by one;
inside a wakeful heart our silken thoughts
unfurl, and soft words like petals drop,
by art, into the world.

Build a fire!
Devote your heart to God,
and you will find what you seek;
your own heart will become the treasure.

That love exists --
that even the notion of love exists, --
is proof that God exists, and that he loves us.

Asking God for mercy and forgiveness is like asking the sun for light and heat; these belong to the incorruptible nature of divinity itself; and though clouds of ignorance may cast shadows of guilt over the souls of men, the sun does not go black, nor does the Lord condemn.

posted April 15, 2013 09:59 AM              

~ Kabir (Sufi)

"It's enough to have faith in one aspect of God. You have faith in God without form. That is very good. But never get into your head that your faith alone is true and every other is false. Know for certain that God without form is real and that God with form is also real. Then hold fast to whichever faith appeals to you."

~ Sri Ramakrishna (Hindu)

"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."

~ Bertrand Russell (Agnostic)

“Like the bee gathering honey from the different flowers, the wise person accepts the essence of the different scriptures and sees only the good in all religions.”

~ Mahatma Gandhi (Hindu)

“There is only one God and He is God to all; therefore it is important that everyone is seen as equal before God. I’ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Buddhist become a better Buddhist, and a Christian become a better Christian.”

posted April 15, 2013 03:01 PM            

― Peace Pilgrim

“There is no arguing with the pretenders to a divine knowledge and to a divine mission. They are possessed with the sin of pride, they have yielded to the perennial temptation.”

Walter Lippmann

Those who are possessed by nothing possess everything.

posted April 15, 2013 03:08 PM            

this is a quote thread, Focus! lol *talking to myself

here's a new one:

posted April 15, 2013 08:08 PM              

The veil must be thinning even more, I've been getting rid of so many possessions, many others are too. Stuff I have been attached to I couldn't care for now.
So I am not surprised this is happening even more so now. It's like the conscious are becoming more conscious than ever dreamed before and the unconscious are seeming to become more 3D dependant.

I came here to post this::

The right motive for seeking self-knowledge is that which pertains to knowledge and not to self. Self-knowledge is worth seeking by virtue of its being knowledge, and not by virtue of its pertaining to self. The main requisite for acquiring self-knowledge is pure love. Seek knowledge for pure love, and self-knowledge eventually crowns the effort. The fact of a student growing impatient is proof positive that he works for reward, and not for love, and that, in its turn proves that he does not deserve the great victory in store for those who really work for pure love. - Helena Blavatsky

posted April 16, 2013 07:30 PM              

Blavatsky had one hell of a temper.

Manly P. Hall is fantastic. Love the quote!

It reminds me of that story
about two monks crossing a river.

For those who haven't heard it,
or who, like me, benefit from reminders: