posted January 17, 2003 04:29 PM         

Thanks for stopping by.. as I said, thought you might find it interesting.

I'm sorry to hear that you are having problems, and I trust that the solutions will be forthcoming. The universe (read God) has an interesting, if somewhat perverse sense of humor... but remember, She'll never send you any more than you have the strength to handle.

Blessings of White Light and a magic promise for tomorrow...

posted January 18, 2003 08:27 AM         

Morgana, hello I saw in Atlantean thread you have fixed angles like me....just opposite.
I find it quite interesting that you joined this thread just after my Sphynx dream and our discussion on the Fixed Signs! Hey A, don't you think so too?

Hope all turns out well with you soon Morgana! sending you

posted January 18, 2003 01:26 PM         

Mystique... well, as you well know, nothing is a coincidence. As it happens I was having this discussion here with you and another discussion with Morgana about things Qabalistic... in point of fact in my sieve-like-brain I have on occasion confused you for each other!

In regard to Qabalah and magic... YES, big connection there, particularly in the followers of the Golden Dawn Tradition.. and then Crowley's offshoot Order. I prefer the use of QBL for the purpose of spiritual unfoldment, after the fashion of Paul Foster Case and his Golden Dawn ofshoot order called Builders of the Adytum.

He was a prolific writer who wrote extensively on Hebrew QBL and Tarot as a means for accelerating the unfoldment of Spiritual abilities. And as much as I admire him, I feel that there is an equally strong connection between the English Language and Tarot as there is with Hebrew.

Of course, since Tarot is a Universal Book, I'm sure that a clever enough person could find correspondences with every language and alphabet... but I have a special place in my Heart for Hebrew and English!

Morgana... please feel free to chime in any time.. this is hopefully more of a forum for discussion than it is for me to spout my own cherished theories. I always learn the most through my discussion with others, as if someone asking a question opens up an avenue for answers to flow. (and isn't that how we truly learn from Higher Mind?)

May Light be extended upon you...

posted January 19, 2003 08:19 PM         

Hi Aselzion, if you are intereseted Quinnie has a nice thread on the Atlantis over at Astrology forum. You might find it quite interesting!

Anyway see you soon!

Love
Mystique

posted January 21, 2003 06:42 AM         

Hi, Mystique, thanks for wishing me well!
Hi, Stella and Jackie and everyone else on this thread!

I finally read all of it. It was quite a concentrated read as there is so much (new) information here. I even scribbled some of my notes, so I'll share them with you, even though my level of knowledge in this area is close to zero...

But before I do, I just wanted to tell you that the other day I was leafing through an astrological book of a very well known and highly esteemed astrologer in our parts (former Yugoslavia), who lived at the beginning of the 20th century, his name is Mile Dupor (you probably never heard of him) and I came across a page where he lists the orbs of PLANETS by which to calculate the aspects. Jut thought you wanted to know.

OK. I think you, with the help of Mystique, have beautifully explained and analysed the subject to those of us who are just beginners in Kabala (we spell it like that too). The thing about adding up numbers and dividing them with 2 and coming up with the middle number, the EQUILIBRIUM, is soooo fascinating!

I have a small question: when you talk about the number 11 and Libra/Justice, you say that duality only exists in the material plane. But isn't it "as above, so below"?

About Libra being the symbol of God/Universe - it kinda makes sense, because we all strive to achieve equilibrium, the balance in all things, yin/yang, positive/negative, etc. Extremes are never good either way, good or bad, only the balance of things is "good".

posted January 21, 2003 07:12 AM         

As I'm more of an abstract thinker, I was of course a little lost in the part where you talk about numbers and their correspondence to the letters etc., so I naturally jumped with excitement when Jakie mentioned the Sphynx, always a fascinating subject. I'll share my thoughts about it in the thread "Atlantead Node Axis" so that I won't stray away from this subject.

As for your thoughts about God, I agree that we are God = I ARE God. All the creatures in the universe are its co-creators and its materialization is the result of our own thoughts (and therefore our actions). I don't believe in a God that is separate from us, somewhere out there in Heaven, almighty and all-knowing, I think that's silly. I think that what we call God is in all of us. Likewise the Devil (but yes, it can be materialized in all kinds of forms again as a result of our thoughts).
Howgh, I have spoken!

I think your spiraling about the alphabet is downright brilliant, as it is of course the reflection of your own knowledge and enlightenment in this area. When I looked at the letters, I got almost the same results, except for the first two, AJS and BKT. But needless to say, I couldn't make anything out...

It's interesting what you said about the Book of Tarot/Thoth... I have Crowley's tarot at home and I think it's the best that I've seen, and sooo beautiful. He (and the artist he worked with) really paid attention to details and depicted the meaning of each card beautifully.

As for the number 666... Isn't it also the number of the Sun? I think I've read that somewhere. Beast equals Man, as Man is the Sphinx: the material plane, flesh: Taurus, the Ego: Leo, the Spirit or the subcouscious: Scorpio, and Man: Aquarius. Maybe I'm exagerating here... I have a feeling I got something wrong, but I don't know what...
And: Aquarius is the 11th sign in the Zodiak!

I think I basically said all that came to my mind, sorry I can't say or ask anything intelligent or enlightening. I'd just like to say that your thoughts about each number with its letters (AJS, BKT and others) are simply brilliant! I especially agree with the last one, number 9. And 8. And...

So thanks again for inviting me to this thread, I hope you'll find someone more stimulating to talk with - and I'll be there to read it!

posted January 21, 2003 11:10 PM         

Wow.. you were prolific!

In terms of the Crowley Tarot, I can't relate to that particualr deck.. I've tried to use it once or twice and gotten a headache. I don't think the deck is bad, but I'm not a great Crowley fan in general, he walks a wee bit too close to the Left Hand Path for my particular tastes. But artistically I think it's a striking deck.

When I reference Book T as the Tarot or perhaps one of the books of Thoth, I was referring to the fabled book that Manly Palmer Hall wrote of in The Secret Teachings of All Ages:
"According to legend the Book of Thoth's pages were covered with strange hieroglyphic figures and symbols, which gave to those acquainted with their use unlimited power over the spirits of the air and the subterranean divinities. When certain ares of the brain are stimulated by the secret processes of the Mysteries, the consciousness of man is extended and he is permitted to behold the Immortals and enter into the presence of the superior gods. The B.O.T. described the methods by which this stimulation was accomplished. In truth, therefore it was the Key to Immortality...
...The book is still in existence and continues to lead the disciples of this age into the presence of the Immortals. No other information can be given to the world concerning it now, but the apostolic succession from the first hierophant initiated by Hermes himself remains unbroken to this day, and those who are peculiarly fitted to serve the Immortals may discover this priceless document if they will search sincerely and tirelessly for it."

It is my belief that the Tarot is one aspect of these teachings, preserved in picture symbols that were held safe for posterity by the Gypsies.

It makes an interesting story at any rate!

posted January 22, 2003 06:03 AM         

As for Crowley, I can't say I know much about what he taught, I just read his novel "The Diary of a Drug Addict" (I don't know if this is the right translation) and I found it to be brilliant, but that's all, I'm not his fan, I'm not attracted to his teachings at all, although I have a friend who's quite deeply into all that, but I don't really take him seriously But I think you can learn a lot from everything, it doesn't matter if it's from the Left or the Right Hand Path, because it all depends on you - on how YOU will absorb and interpret it. The Left Path can't hurt you if you don't want it to, I think that you alone are responsible and in charge for your destiny. I just take what I find useful from every discipline or teaching or religion or whatever, but in regard to my own moral standards which are universal (found in Christianity and witchcraft alike), and discard what doesn't fit them.

But I do find his tarot very useful, I used it and studied it for a while, but it never compelled me to research Crowley's teachings any deeper, and I have it for about 10 years now. But it's true that I didn't try much of the other kinds of decks, so...
But Crowley was a student of Eliphas Levi, wasn't he? I have his book Transcendental Magic, but I'm ashamed to say I haven't even opened it yet... It was on sale and I bought it as I thought I might find it interesting to read one day.

So this Book of Thoth is only a myth nowadays, and the Book of Tarot does exist, you say?

morgana

posted January 22, 2003 09:15 PM         

I have never seen 666 as related to the Sun. It reduces to 18/9 which in Linda's numerology is related to Mars.

I have read that 9 is the number of the Sun, this was put forth by Faith Javane and Dusty Bunker. They pitch an interesting case for it too: "The Sun is assigned to 9 because it is only after you carefully progress through the previous steps, 1 - 8, that you can attain a position of respect and leadership, as well as a full recognition of your inner potential. The true inner self is expressed under a 9, as you become the humanitarian, the universalist who reaches out to the multitudes to lighten their burdens through your understanding, wisdom and compassion." -- Numerology and the Divine Triangle.

Bunker goes on to say: " Some place Mars with the number 9, and the Sun with number 1; however, this seems backward, in the sense that these placements imply that we start our cycle with complete knowledge of ourselves and an attitude of equitable sharing of our talents and abilities through the Sun, and end our cycle with the ego-centered energies of Mars and the little self." -- Numerology and Your Future.

Interesting and great food for thought. My only thought in this case is that the SUN is really numbered 10 which implies the completion of one cycle and the beginning of the next. 10 = 1. The ZERO adding POWER and DEPTH to the 1.

In terms of the Book of Thoth... is it only a fable? I am inclined to think NOT. However I suppose that I will only KNOW for sure if and when I am approached by the unbroken line of Initiates that are keeping it "safe".

Is the Tarot Book T.. yes in some ways I do believe it is... it certainly is hieroglyphic in nature.

In terms of Crowley, and the Right and Left Hand Paths... hmmm. Well, I do not give the Left Hand Path power in the form of fear, but does it employ energies that I personally don't want to muck about with... YES! Do I believe that Crowley mucked about with those forces, YES.

So though I agree that we can learn from all sources, there are lessons that I can learn from OTHERS experience. I don't have to stick my own paw into the fire to see if it's really hot, particularly after I've seen a few others get their paws burnt that way! Make any sense?

Peace and Light...

posted January 23, 2003 06:09 AM         

OK, here's the thing about the Sun. When taj asked this I was afraid for a moment that I only heard about this, but then I remembered I read about it.

Here's a part of the introductory text from the book:

"The Kabbalah teaches that it is possible to impose a sigil, or graphic representation of any name, on KAMEAS or squares. This can be done by ascertaining the numerical values of a name according to the Hebrew alphabet and then tracing a line connecting these numbers on the KAMEA. This connecting is know as a SIGIL."

Here's the kamea of SOL (the SUN), according to this (but I can't put it in a square, unfortunately, so I'll just list the numbers):

6-32-3-34-35-1
7-11-27-28-8-30
19-14-16-15-23-24
18-20-22-21-17-13
25-29-10-9-26-12
36-5-33-4-2-31

You can see that each row (vertically and horizontally), when you add it up, gives the sum of 111. Since there are 6 rows (6 is the number of the Sun in Kabala, right, at least in this book) either way, the sum total is always 666.

What are your thoughts on this?

posted January 23, 2003 04:13 PM         

I have heard of Qabalistic Kameas or Magic squares, but I don't know enough about them to really speak intelligently. I have a series of Tarot Lessons here to read that speak of the Kameas and their use in meditation/spiritual unfoldment; so I'll have a peek at them and see what I can discover.

From what I understand, how high an Adept you become has little to do with LEARNING and discipline, and almost everything to do with meditation, desire and re-membering!

Peace and Light...

posted January 24, 2003 04:16 AM         

OK Aselzion, see you later!

posted January 26, 2003 04:07 AM         

In Hebrew Qabalah the Sun is associated with the 6th Sephira on the Tree of Life, known as Tiphareth. Does this make the Sun's number 6? I don't think so!

Of course I may be wrong, but I'm too used to the Sun being number 1!

I think I still need to learn more about Magic Squares to speak intelligently, but I do know that there is a cool thing that happens when you connect the numbers on the Magic Squares... you get a Planetary Sigil, that can be used to work magic.

Guess it all depends on what one's definition of magic is!

Until next time...

Bright Blessings...

posted January 26, 2003 11:58 AM         

So this is the difference, then? "Associated with" and "the number of"? I see... Thanks.

Yes I know about the sigils, but I haven't tried them out yet... I still know to little of all this. Maybe if/when you try how they work, you can share your experience...

See you later!

posted January 26, 2003 01:44 PM         

Hmmm, you know what I just noticed? You said that each line in the Kamea that you posted added up to 111. When I look at that astrologically/numerologically.. I see SUN SUN SUN! Interesting.

As to whether or not I actually witch up the gumption to play with the magic squares for real magic... I probably won't. I know a quicker way that eliminates all the ritual and brouhaha!

Let me know if you decide to play tho!

In the Light...

posted January 27, 2003 05:10 AM         

I will, but that probably won't happen in the near future or even at all. This is all still kinda transcendental to me...

You have a creative way of thinking. OK, if 1's are all Suns, their energy is compiled in the number 6, the Tiphareth. 6, 6, 6 - Tiphareth, Tiphareth, Tiphareth, just like 1, 1, 1 is Sun, Sun, Sun.

And why is the Sun only 6th on the Tree of Life?
Or is it because it has to be in the Center of the Tree? Or maybe because the ego (Sun, Leo) is in-between the Material and Divinity, slightly closer to the Material world? (I'm speculating as I write, sorry...)

Let me also ask you this (or just your opinion on this): Why is the number 666 the number of the beast and the number of man? Where does this come from (besides from the Bible, obviously)?
Is it only the obvious connotation that the Beast is really Man or is there some deeper meaning here?
Could it be that this has something to do with the Ego of Man (Sun, the number 6)?

I hope I haven't burdened you too much with my questions. It's just my way of expressing my thoughts.

Hope you had a nice weekend!

posted January 28, 2003 12:18 AM         

Always so full of questions.. what a lovely thing! Let's hope I can remember them all as I write!

Ok as for why the Sun is the 6th Sephiroth on the Tree of Life. Well according to what I've read, Tiphareth IS the EGO center, but that EGO is the ONE EGO.. or God; the Great I AM.

The 6th Sphere, as we know is Tiphareth and it also has the names ADAM, designating generic humanity, Melek (king), and Ben (son).

All saviors and king-priests are, in the myths of mankind, associated with the Sun. Sun gods are gods of justice and its administration. Apollo, among the Greeks, was the rewarder and punisher as well as patron of the arts, especially of music. The Egyptian god Osiris is also a dispenser of rewards and punishments, a god of fertility and a Sun god. In The New Testament, the "Son of Man" is a judge, a king, a fertility source (for from him flows the water of life), and is called "Sun of Righteousness".

The Ego represented in Tiphareth is the ONE EGO. As the Sun warms the world, so the One Ego sends its power into human lives.

The placement of the Sun in the 6th Sephiroth also has to do with the placement of the planets in Chaldean order from Sphere 3 to Sphere 9 as follows:

1 - Kether: The Beginning of the Whirlings
2 - Chokmah: Masloth, Sphere of the Zodiac
3 - Binah: Saturn
4 - Chesed : Jupiter
5 - Geburah : Mars
6 - Tiphareth : Sun
7 - Netzach : Venus
8 - Hod : Mercury
9 - Yesod : Moon
10 - Malkuth : Sphere of the Elements

As to why 666 is the number of a beast and of a man.. well, that's what John's vision told him.

Numerologically, 6 is Venus = WOMAN
9 is MARS = MAN (the 6 and 9 are mirror reversals, or shifted polarities) and 6+6+6 = 18 and 18 reduces to 9. A man.

In English Qabalah 666 = FOX. The beast! Sly, cunning.

That would be the SIMPLE explanation. I'm sure that 666 would transliterate into some Hebrew word that would expand on the meaning, but I don't have that info to hand... however, I will try to find it.

Interestingly, the 18th Higher Arcana Key is The Moon, and it is pictured as "a rayed moon from which drops of blood are falling. A wolf and a hungry dog are seen below, catching the falling drops of blood in their open mouths, while still lower, a crab is seen hastening to join them." Much food for thought here... any ideas?

I think this is a good place to stop for tonight.

Hope this helps some!
Blessed Be...

A

posted January 28, 2003 09:28 AM         

Why exactly are three 6's needed to "give birth" to one 9, the Man?

Do you think 666 is the origin of the expression "foxy lady"? Just kidding.

This tarot picture of the Moon is indeed puzzling to me and I must confess I don't understand it. First of all, I don't know why the Moon is bleeding, what does the blood stand for, and secondly, I don't know what the dog and the wolf stand for in symbols. As for the crab, well, is it only astrological (Moon-Cancer)?

Moon reflects the Sun's light and illuminates the night, the darkness, but in a whole different light. But why are those three animals creatures of the night? And here's the blood again...

Well this is beyond me. I need a little help, just a little clue perhaps...
I'll see if I can find something regarding those symbols in my books and I'll come back.

See you later!

posted January 29, 2003 05:28 AM         

"The crab denotes the sign of Cancer, the Moon a night filled with the howlings of the enemies of man and with dread (the bloodstains on the road). Bloody dew or golden tears shed by Phoebe? The Hebrew "tsade" represents the end. (...)"

I guess this card is slightly different from yours, A. It says there are two dogs howling, not a dog and a wolf, and there are also two towers representing boundaries (of the human mind). "Its general meaning is disappointment", says here.

Who is Phoebe?

posted January 29, 2003 03:02 PM         

Umm... Phoebe: One of the Charmed Ones?!?

Sorry it's taking a while to get back, I had to work last night and am just waking up now.

Moon in Tarot... One of the Cards I've seen from the Esoteric Tarot uses Hebrew YODS drifting down from the Moon rather than blood. I think I prefer that Imagery!

I think this card has a lot to do with the subconscious mind, and as much lunar symbolism as it contains, it is astrologically related to the sign Pisces. In the tarot that I am using for meditation there are 18 YODS, or drops of LIGHT, symbolizing the descent of the Life Force from the Above to the Below. This is verified by the fact that the Hebrew word for LIFE is chai, and that Hebrew word has a number value of 18.

Paul Foster Case writes this abot The Moon:
" The shellfish rising from the pool is a symbol of the early stages of conscious unfoldment. In these first developments, the individual seems to be isolated from the rest of nature...
The path, rising and falling, has been worn by the feet (Pisces) of those who have traveled this way before. It passes between 2 canines, one a dog and the other a wolf.
The wolf remains what nature made him, the dog is a product of human adaptation.
The two towers represent the handiwork of man; they represent the mental attitude of the average man, who conceives himself to be surrounded by a hostile environment from which he must protect himself..."

If you are interested in Tarot and its connection to Qabalah, I would strongly suggest a book by Paul Foster Case called The Tarot: A Key to the Wisdom of the Ages. It's very enlightening!! And I'm sure you can find it online at Amazon.com or on Ebay or even a local bookstore.

As an aside... I think that the numbers of the Planets that we use in astrology/numerology are related to the Planets as we have been taught by Linda and others.

I think that their plcaement on the tree of Life has more to do with the nature of each of the Sephira, and not so much to be taken as the planetary numbers. Does this make sense.. I haven't had my coffee yet?!

I'll look up Phoebe and get back to you on that.

Hope this covers everything, if not just put me back on track!

posted February 01, 2003 04:49 AM         

Hope you had a good rest since last time

So the blood probably stands for life. I also prefer that image, it seems more spiritual to me.
It's a very modern explanation, this one. It doesn't seem ancient at all - the dog as product of man, the two towers as hostile (??) environment, and what I don't like is the symbolism of shellfish as symbol for undeveloped consciousness - it reminds me of the theory of evolution. I prefer the Cancer-Moon symbolism (or perhaps they are one and the same?).

I understand about sephiras and their numbers, but why are they connected to planets at all, if their numbers are completely different from the ones in numerology? Why are the sephiras associated with these other numbers at all, then?
(These are more rhetorical questions, but if you perhaps know the answer...)

Yeah, that Phoebe is a strange one, doesn't sound very Hebrew or anything