posted March 13, 2004 11:56 PM         

Well... not to play games with semantics, but when a person makes a choice to take anothers life, that is all he is doing, making a choice.

In a particular context that may be considered, or judged, GOOD or BAD depending upon the situation.

For example, if the victim were say, Adolf Hitler, we might judge his killing a GOOD thing.

Conversely, if it were Jesus, we might judge his killing a BAD thing.

However, if we belonged to the Nazi party, Adolf's murder might be judged a BAD thing.

And certainly, if we were a member of the Roman Coucil or perhaps the Sanhedrin, we might judge that killing Jesus was a GOOD thing.

What is done is done... the GOOD or BAD is merely a judgement we place upon the action.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but who are we to JUDGE good or bad, particularly in the case of abortion, unless/until we have "walked a mile in the prospective parent/s moccasins"?

Just a thought...

Blessings...
A

posted March 14, 2004 12:50 PM         

Yes, yes of course I see your point, but I can't help but think we have strayed wildly from the topic at hand.

The matter we began with was abortion.

Of course criminals should not be allowed to walk the streets. To be honest, and perhaps a wee bit old fashioned, perhaps if the punishments fit the crime, there wouldn't be so much incentive to commit the crime. In other words, I believe there is a certain appeal to Hammurabi's code of an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.

A perfet solution? No. Better perhaps than sending people to prison and supporting them for countless years while the poor middle class are struggling to pay their taxes, feed and shelter their families and still manage to have a bit of fun? Maybe.

I am not sure what the right answer is to your dilemma... but I think perhaps we ought to keep our commentary to the point at hand, which was the rightness or wrongness of abortion.

And to that I say, have a look at the Lexigram. The word itself will offer some fairly startling clues.

I can't believe that a loving, caring God could condemn his children for making the difficult and painful choice of terminating a pregnancy.

If we believe in the concept of a Soul, then we should know that that Soul will manifest in exactly the way it should. Perhaps as I say, the Soul is choosing the experience of cell division and eventual abortion or even miscarriage.

Again, who are we to judge?

Complex... and I'm sure not going to be solved on a message board, but still good fodder for discussion.

I bid you Peace...
A

posted March 14, 2004 08:29 PM         

Which brings me to the word "deserve". Why do some people deserve things that others don't (excluding karma or God) indeed, what does anyone deserve, and how do you know for sure anyway? This reminds me of a time in high school...

I was 13 years old and went to school one day where I was informed at the assembly that a 15 year old guy died in a house fire. I was commenting to my friends that he must have deserved to die as why would God take him if he didn't? It was purely philosophical - not meaning to hurt anyone or even thinking about the way he died, or knowing any facts about the fire. I said it out of some need to understand how he could die. Other people saw this a different way however, and the next day in school I was "beaten up" but not too badly - just one punch. I was sure everyone would beat me up for the rest of the year as this kid was very popular. However, the next day it was forgotten. Things do happen out of the blue, but I believe they are linked through Karma and God - they are ways of understanding. I believe the solution to your delemma of living without laws can exist but only in cultures where the entire population has completely regressed memory - ie, if everyone can remember all of their actions, and the things others had done to them since the start of their existance. Only then could we understand that we are a web of everything - an interactive being that has cause and effect on eveything including us. We are not just flesh beings living until we die. By being conscious of our actions we are able to transcend them and live our lives with the utmost fulfillment. Unfortunately (?), society doesn't work that way, and dreams become difficult to fulfill, however, that too can become a reason for existance - to strive. We must also realise that things do happen which can cause us great harm and emotion, but we must get over these things and move on. Break ay negative karmic cycles... I loved Linda's view that we should thank anyone who does harm to us in an effort at breaking these cycles.

Abortion however is vastly different. It is questionable from any angle you look at it. Many factors can lead to unwanted pregnancies - it's not anyone's fault, and yet it can have major effects on many people. I don't think there is a right or wrong here - it's extremely grey.

posted March 16, 2004 12:11 AM         

Best of luck finding what you're looking for.

Dean.

posted March 16, 2004 12:47 AM         

Yes it does indeed seem like the splitting of more than just shades of gray, doesn't it.

In terms of abortion, my HOPE is that most of them are accomplished long before your mythical 8.5 mos.!!

In terms of abortion being a form of birth control for people that don't want to take responsibility for their actions and plan ahead, like Linda, I am not advocating this course.

In terms of rape... the percentage of those cases that actually lead to pregnancy are much more rare than one might think. However, I think the incidence may be higher in incestuous familial relationships.

I agree with Dean in that if we are going to allow abortion, we should convesely allow euthanasia for the elderly or terminal who are longing for release, but are currently unable to get it legally.

End of life matters are very personal, and I'm not sure I want the government dictating what is right for ME or MY BODY. All I want them to do is make it LEGAL so that if and when I need to avail myself of that option, it is available at that time!

It's kind of like same sex marriages... someone is always going to be offended by another's choice that they don't understand... and as we know... "the humans kill what they do not understand", as our history so blatantly shows. Case in point, the burning times when witches, or at least those accused of witchery, were burned at the stake or hanged for their differences.

We haven't really come as far as we think in some ways, eh?

In the Light...
A

posted March 16, 2004 09:21 AM         

And the lexigram won't work if the word is 'abortion' (singular) instead of 'abortions' (plural), which Linda used.

If we only had sex with our own Twin Selves, if no rape ever took place in this world, if we only had sex when we were not teenagers, when we were willing to have a baby, if we carried out our contraceptive methods duly...no abortions would be needed.

You may call me unrealistic.

posted March 16, 2004 09:53 AM         

Once again, I must say- Linda owed us an explanation of her change of thought.

posted March 16, 2004 12:58 PM         

quote:

---

I must say- Linda owed us an explanation of her change of thought.

---

posted March 16, 2004 10:00 PM         

1) the mother is on medication for a specific dis-ease which will cause the baby to be deformed
2) the mother or the father has a hereditary dis-ease which will pass onto the child
3) the pregnancy is life-threatening to the mother

A pregnancy resulted from rape is a result of violence and hate, I would question why a woman would have to suffer from such immense agony- bearing the child of her rapist. I'm beginning to change my point of view. Throughout the pregnancy, the mother would go through tremendously mixed emotions, and the foetus can feel it, too. What would the child feel, whether it will be adopted or otherwise, when he/she finds out that he/she is the result of rape?

Hopefully I'll come up with some more ideas on this very issue.

posted March 17, 2004 12:55 AM         

I wanted to say I was against abortion but at this very moment I just want to say that of course under certain unusual circumstances, abortions must be carried out, but such practice must not be abused.

I hope I'll be somewhat enlightened and return to this section soon.

posted March 17, 2004 12:31 PM         

In the film, Percy (Alison Elliott) has been repeatedly raped by her stepfather since her adolescence. She gets pregnant when she is sixteen. 'I hate what he did to me, but I found I loved the life growing inside me...I could feel him, moving, even...(paraphrased) I swore that I would protect him and never let him go through what I went through...'

(But her stepfather one day drove her to a motel and shouts at her that the last thing he needs is another mouth to feed, and he beats her, she loses her beloved unborn baby and because of this attack, she can never have children again...)

Another film is based on a true story, which unfortunately I can't remember the title, starring Anne Bancroft and Gloria Reuben. Bancroft is raped by a black man and after giving birth to a baby girl, she sent her away for adoption. Decades later, Reuben tracks down her birth mother, and it is a happy reunion. But later Reuben asks Bancroft (paraphrased) 'Did you send me away because my skin colour reminded you of that rapist? In the end, you sent me away...' Bancroft says (paraphrased) 'when I looked at you, I saw him...'

'And I still haven't found what I'm looking for...'- I mean the answers. Should one have an abortion due to the fact that it has been the result of rape? At what stage can the embryo be defined as 'suitable for a seemingly painless abortion'? Exactly at what stage can the foetus be defined as 'too old to be taken out of the womb'?

Or maybe Linda was right the second time. An unborn child does not have a soul yet...it has not taken its first breath, hence it doesn't have a soul...forgive me if I somehow incorrectly recall what I have read in 'Star Signs'. And I agree that, in a country where abortion is legal, the practice tends to be a lot safer. Once again, I'm taking the Netherlands for instance, where it is legal, the abortion rate is, as a matter of fact, much lower than predominantly Catholic Ireland, where abortion is illegal.

But if the reason for constant, repeated abortions is casual sex, than wouldn't the mother feel as though she has just taken her child out of her body, as though there is a sense of loss...and somewhat feels empty, confused or even guilty?

I've never heard of undertaking an abortion when the mother is 8.5-month pregnant. I assume it would endanger the mother's life. I've never witnessed an abortion and thus cannot imagine at that stage if the foetus would experience enormous pain.

However, Linda was not anti-adoption. She said in 'Star Signs' that when you take a child who has no one to depend on and love him/her, miracles will happen. Even your Karma will very likely be erased. Taking somebody else' child as your own and take good care of him/her is indeed a great kind of love...

After examining the pros and cons, I find myself beginning to be convinced that, Linda was probably right in 'Star Signs' after all...

Still, all of us are searching the truth. Or rather, our own truth...

Love
Peace
Joy

posted March 17, 2004 01:15 PM         

I am fervently pro-choice. I don't think abortions are the greatest thing since spring rolls (mmm thai), but I definately think that the choice should be available for all women.
Although this might seem like a technicality of sorts to some, here is my perspective: you can't kill something that isn't alive, that hasn't been born. I agree with Linda that the fetus is more or less like a robot ... it can respond to stimulus as long as it is connected to the mother. But a response is not the same as a feeling. I do not believe that the spirit/mind/soul is connected to the body until it is born and takes it's first breath. That good old first breath wherein astrologers and even some neurologists have realized that the brain is seemingly "programmed" for life (for astrologers, affected by the planetary influences). Your natal chart is cast for when you were born, not conceived, for a reason. Your you-of-you may have waited countless years before choosing another incarnation, waiting for the proper time to be born ... to breathe and be "programmed" by the cosmos for the right life pattern. I do believe that the spirit/soul/mind watches over their intended body whilst the mother is pregnant, etc, but he/she is not connected to the body. (Similarly, when you die, your spirit/soul/mind may watch over your physical body but is no longer attached to it.)
I don't think having an abortion is a great thing to do. Certainly it exerts a great burden on the prospective mother's body to create a new body and then be forced to reject it, not to mention any emotional/mental problems that could arise from feeling guilty or just feeling the loss of what could have been her child. It is also probably quite unpleasant to the prospective child, since it now has to wait around for another equally favorable "time" to be born. If all this sounds rather impersonal, I am sorry. It's just how I see it. It is wasteful, but not murderous.

To sum it up, especially as far as the legality of the issue goes, my own philosophy towards abortions agrees with the saying "If you think having an abortion is wrong, then don't have one."

This may sound like a ludicrous comparison to some but I'm going to throw it out there anyway.
Let's consider two situations.
(1)Person A commits a murder. He planned to kill soandso, thought about, mulled it over, and decided to go through with it.
(2) Person B is driving home from a late movie one night, in the rain. Perhaps he should have waited until the storm passed, but he didn't. Unfortunately, he did not see some poor fella' running across the street in a rush to get out of the rain. Person B accidentally kills the man, though he had no intentions of doing so.

In a court of our current laws, person A would be charged with first degree murder. Person B could also, quite likely, be charged with manslaughter.

Let's consider another couple of situations.
(1) Person C finds that she is pregnant but is not ready for that situation, financially, emotionally, mentally, etc. It causes her alot of grief and pain, but in the end she decides to have an abortion.
(2) Person D finds that she is pregnant and is overjoyed. She has been waiting a long time for this and is thrilled. The months pass and one day, out of the blue, she has a miscarriage. She is devastated.

Person C intended to end her pregnancy. Thought about, mulled it over, and decided to go through with it. Person D accidentally ended her pregnancy ... she had no intentions of doing it but regardless, it happened.
If one is going to argue that Person C committed a murder, then it logically follows that Person D committed manslaughter ... and that is, in my opinion, ridiculous.

As for the issue of what is right and what is wrong, or how do you really know the difference between good and bad, goes ...
I tend to agree alot with what dafremen (I probably mispelled it ) wrote in his post "Perception is Not Reality."
Yes, whether something is good or bad depends alot on where you stand, what your personal biases and interests are, etc. However, and I realize that I am probably a part of an overwhelming minority here, I do believe that there are Universal Truths ... that Right and Wrong exist independantly of whatever we might like to pretend they are. Our entire third dimensional existence is based upon polar opposites. Dark and Light, Positive and Negative, Male and Female. They are constantly in aspect to each other in order to bring about change, growth, and even life into being. There are a million examples of "what you might think is bad I might think is good" that I could present and all of them would be equally valid. These are not what I am referring to. I think, through our ability to connect with our Higher S-elves, we can be shown the Truth ... which includes what is truly good and truly bad. There is a big difference between positive evil (a volcanic eruption destroying acres of land but that will in the long run stimulate fertility) and negative evil (the mass murdering of people just because you didn't like them). There is no doubt in my mind or my soul that the former is good, no matter how apparantly negative it may seem, and that the latter is bad, no matter how positive it may seem to the people committing the murders.
Love is good.
You could argue for the rest of your existence that it is bad, or evil, or potato, or dirt ...
Love is what it is and it is good.
I think lacking the courage of your convictions can be devastating to an individual. You could easily spend your life sitting on the fence because you can't decide whether or not you want to do something. You could just as easily live a "bad" life and waste your opportunities to grow into a positive, loving, and light filled person because, "since good and bad are just a matter of perspective anyway," you're just going to choose to perceive your actions as good. The matter of perspective is tricky but I think in the simplest terms, the perspective really only matters to ourselves. I think, in reality, the higher beings (intelligences, forces, gods and goddesses, or even just "God" ... whatever you call them) know quite well the differences between what is good and what is evil. If there was no difference, life could not progress because there would be no purpose. Conflict exists to create something new. What are we still struggling to live for down here on Earth if there is no real good or bad? What purpose would spiritual evolution have? LOL why would we even be here in the first place, if not for good and bad?

posted March 17, 2004 02:09 PM         

Imagine bearing a child of a rapist...it's just disgusting. It's not fair.

And, again, it's one's Free Will choice to decide whether it is RIGHT or WRONG to keep the baby or have an abortion.

I've never been baptised, but I go to Mass. However, I am ABSOLUTELY pro-contraceptives. I am ABSOLUTELY pro-birth control and family planning. I don't think it is a good idea having too big a family.

Sorry if I have changed the subject for a moment...

posted March 17, 2004 03:04 PM         

Please visit this link as soon as you get a chance: http://www.mothering.com/news-bulletins/march2004.shtml

I am absolutely outraged!