posted September 06, 2006 10:40 PM              

FREE WILL=6+18+5+5+23+9+12+12=27=9
same as GOD
GOD=7+15+4=17=8=1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8=36=9
a triangle or triple of 3.
FREE WILL IS of/from GOD.

We are God experiencing the human condition and learning and growing.
Creator/Reactor/Creation.
The Creator IS the Creation.

posted September 06, 2006 10:46 PM              

That was a nice quote, Steve.

Worthy question as well, Mirandee.

posted September 06, 2006 10:58 PM            

Not to draw you into this debate, but,
the pulling of a trigger is but a tiny part
of a scene which, in fact, has infinite implications.

It is not as simple as saying "he pulled the trigger".
That is a mere operational definition of the act.
It sees only the appearance,
and explains nothing.

We must ask "Why did he do it?"
That "why" is the essential development
in the larger story of "how" it was done.
Without that "why",
he could never even lift
the barrell to put it into his mouth,
or lift the finger to pull the trigger.
So, the "why" is also the "how".

We are, after all, talking about choice.
We are talking about how choice is linked to will.
So, the "how" is not "how is it willed",
but "how is it chosen?"
How/Why is the choice made?
Not, how is it carried out.
Where is the man in the choosing of it?

What are the thoughts he considers?
How did he choose to think them?
Was he ignorant of their existence
before he selected to become aware of them?
How did he choose not to think other thoughts?
Did he have to think those other thoughts
in order to choose not to think them?
How did he choose to think the thoughts
that thought to consider which thoughts to consider,
and what to think about them?

What are the feelings he experiences?
How did he choose to feel them?
How did he choose not to feel other feelings?
Did he have to feel them in order to choose
whether or not to feel them?
etc., etc., etc.

Such are the riddles that abound,
when we imagine the man to be the source
of all that comes to him
and all that accounts for the substance of himself and his decisions.

posted September 06, 2006 11:34 PM            

Sure, a complacent man will make use of it for convenience' sake, but, if hard pressed to find an excuse, he will just as easily do without one. Complacency neither seeks, nor requires, any excuse, in order to make it complacent (or to permit it to be such as it already is). A complacent will is satisfied with itself, with or without justifications, but a righteous will does not accept even the justifications which are afforded it.

Knowing that "all the world is a stage,
and all the men and women merely players,"
does not alter the plot of the divine tragi-comedy.
Someone who is cast as a hero
is not at all fit to play a layabout,
nor would he want to.
He would neither wish to play that part,
nor any other part.
Nor would he think to abandon the part he has been given,
even if offered a way out of the play.
For there is no "out".
As long as he thinks, he thinks as a hero.
If he considers abandoning the quest,
know that this, too, is written into his blood,
and he will do what he is created to do,
just as it is intended from the beginning of the world.

Has he abandoned his quest?
Then he was never the hero at all.
We mistook him.
But, has he refused to abandon his quest,
even when provided with a God
upon whose shoulders he could easily lay all blame?
Then he is truly the hero,
whose destiny it is to be an
unself-conscious channel for that Light,
whose source he knows full well is not his own.

posted September 07, 2006 01:31 AM            

Mirandee: >>>>Question: Do we all agree that man can control his/her own destiny?
If so, then the next question is how does humankind control their own destiny?

I believe that, if each takes control of him/her self, the humanity will take care of itself.

There is a saying "There is enough in this universe for every mans needs, but there ain't enough for one man's greed."

This must become the fundamental truth for all civilzations, not just this earth but other worlds out there as well.

Mirandee - Its Krishna that said "I'm the one who kills, I'm the one who is killed." I said once before he represents the supreme I of God. May be the light filled him too. He convinces his disciple Arjun to pick up arms and fight the battle. Do not look at the relationships of uncle/brother on the other side of the field. Look only at who is for the truth and who isn't. Krishna then reveals his supreme form to him, but before that he gives him a divine vision so that he does not get blinded. Thats a summary. The original story of the battlefield spans many volumes of book.

But what struck me most was, there is this incarnation of Krishna when there is peace in that area and a great war is on the horizon in which many men would be killed. He teaches its ok to fight a just war. Then Buddha came to the scene. Although his teachings did not survive long in India, but his message went far and wide to the east. I wonder if there was a single war when it spread. I'm sure Buddha wud have said the same "Its ok if you are called to fight a just war." One then disrobes his orange gown and slips on the soldiers garments.

500 years later Jesus appears at a time when belief of people in that area is "Eye for an eye". Does he teach everyone, to not fight with the sword? Perhaps not, I think, even though the bible says otherwise. May be I'm wrong. Perhaps when every body in theory are brothers and sisters and death of the body does not mean death of soul, then why must we resist the sword if it takes our lives. If it makes your killer happy why not?

Did anyone watch X-men(2006) the movie? In that movie theres this story of Jean having tremendous power within her after she survives death. She lets the power control her. She sees Wolverine standing in front of her, and comes back to her senses. This is also depicted in the Hindu mythology story when Kali, the goddess is intoxicated with all that power she used to kill a terrifying demon. Then she starts killing everyone on the path in that intoxication. Seeing this Shiva (God) lies under her feet. Seeing her husband in this manner, sense dawns on her and she is back to normal.

Fayte>>> Creator = Creation
Such a profound truth. Parallels "I am that I am" or "Energy can neither be created nor destroyed."

Perhaps HSC you are referring to what lies beyond Creation? What happened before the chaos? Was there order before chaos? Now that there is order will there be chaos again. I loved Carl Sagan's quote on hinduism and their theory on cyclical universe. Its there in the wiki link.
Does getting the jews out of Egypt represents coming of Light from chaos? Perhaps our Creator is telling us a story.

Science cannot fathom what lies beyond creation. Perhaps, we must just be contend and know that beyond creation is Love. Love never ceases to exist.

Or perhaps we must simply believe in Carl Sagan when he said the universe is-was and ever will be.

Humankind has broken the sound barrier. Will we ever brake the light barrier in this universe? Or perhaps even go 20 percent of that speed. Bizzarre experiences are possible if we do.

Lotusheartone>>>Universal laws
Interesting. Perhaps the laws are dictated to men so that we know that it is not just we who are doing what we are doing, but it is God who participates in every activity of ours as well. And there fore we have to adhere to those laws, like it or not.
For example: "Take rest." Do not overwork. Sit back. Rejuvenate your mind. Those laws are for ones own good and therefore for God in a way.
Or peaceful coexistence. Or do not steal. What is stealing? Its giving more than receiving perhaps, or receiving more than giving
Or being faithful so that the children is not corrupt. Doesn't science says its all in the genes? I may eat pizza and pancakes everyday, but still live till 112. Or I may smoke 10 cigarrettes a day and still not die of lung cancer? Isn't it all in the genes. Well lets not be racist by what we have inherited. Lets also not be sexist. For fun's sake its fine but not at the expense of others

Is it that whoever messes with those laws the laws screws them back? Hahaha

But God in his infinite wisdom made those laws for men and not the other way.

Sorry for all those ramblings... Have to check my Mercury transits. BRB.

posted September 07, 2006 02:34 AM              

I haven't the notion to acclaim it nor refute it.
Contemplate it, yes, in a free-flowing-spiraling of thoughts off one another, perhaps.
I like that.

Should I expend energy proving I am right, when I've never come to such finality of resolution myself?

I could look with my eyes all around, scoping, observing, taking everything in.
Such enormous suffering must wail up into the heavens.

Fragile life is held in my hands,
beating there ever so hopeful to be cradled and inspired or held.

In an instant, I could turn away.
In an instant, I could comfort.
In an instant, I could dissect, decree,sing or cry.
I could give in.
I could be strengthened.
Or I could flow into the fulfilling place that beckons me to enter...listening, wondering, sharing, giving, exploring.

Something doesn't feel right here...frozen in headlights. Acceleration beyond where I've yet to be. Or tail-spinned, regardless, spun off of my current highway.

Maybe tomorrow I will feel differently.

goodnight.

posted September 07, 2006 02:58 PM            

quote:

---

It is not as simple as saying "he pulled the trigger".
That is a mere operational definition of the act.
It sees only the appearance,
and explains nothing.

---

There's a difference in curiosity styles that can be explained by Sun sign, but I hesitate to say anything for fear it might seem like an attack when in actuality it's merely an explanation. I think it would be safe to say that Scorps often want to look beneath the surface, while other signs may allow the surface to speak of itself to a greater degree.

How it is willed IS how it was chosen. What are our choices if not the actions of our wills?

What are the thoughts he considers?
I don't know the thoughts he considers (being a hypothetical and all).

How did he choose to think them?
I see you're saying that because our thoughts are involuntary that they must originate from some source. What if they don't? How about astrology, and the affect that has on a person's thought processes? Why would a God of infinite love cause the thought of suicide in someone who might take him up on the offer?

Was he ignorant of their existence
before he selected to become aware of them?
Possibly. What difference would that make? I have the capacity to go any random site on the internet, and expose myself to any number of new thoughts. It doesn't mean that those thoughts and that information are going to necessitate a pre-destined action. Those thoughts and the information thought about could be completely benign and hold nothing whatsoever for me. I absolutely believe in the presence of useless information in our lives.

posted September 07, 2006 05:50 PM            

quote:

---

A complacent will is satisfied with itself, with or without justifications, but a righteous will does not accept even the justifications which are afforded it.

---

There are quite a few unrighteous wills in this world that believe themselves to be righteous, or go to great lengths to show the righteousness of their wills while being false (at least by the perception of others who are witness to the hypocrisies).

Every temptation in the Bible speaks more to man's free will, than it does to pre-ordained destiny. Jesus and Job couldn't even be said to have been tempted if they had no independent will in the matter. Nor would satan be so intensely interested if there were no free will to tempt. Part of what makes Jesus so compelling is the submitting of his will to God's will.

posted September 08, 2006 02:42 AM              

quote:

---

I believe the free wi11 to do the right thing is so important..every action has a reaction..we are governed under the Universal Laws that rule this Planet..and God gave us these rules to follow..to have a good and happy, productive, and fulfilled life for as long as we chose..we broke these laws..and you get what you give..this chaos we live in day to day..is of our own making..our choices..
I believe it is very important..to amke the right choices..for the good of ALL..in LOve and Light..Peace on Earth.

---

Mannu said:

quote:

---

I believe that, if each takes control of him/her self, the humanity will take care of itself.

---

AG said:

quote:

---

How it is willed IS how it was chosen. What are our choices if not the actions of our wills?

---

Exactly!!!! We are not just creatures of fate or chance. Life doesn't just happen to us. We have the choice to take control of ourselves and our lives. In doing so we can create new lives and change anything about ourselves and in doing that we also have the ability to change our world for the better. Mankind has an indomitable spirit within us that allows us to rise from the ashes of the worst things in our lives like the Phoenix. We see that all the time in our world how people rise above the worst catastrophes and carry on and rebuild their lives. That is born out of the will. The choice to take control of events and work towards change.

Jesus said we "could move mountains" if we had the faith and belief in ourselves. Not saying he meant we could literally move mountains but that it was a way of saying we can do anything that we put our mind to. We can. People do it all the time. We all can name some event in our lives where we chose, through our free will, to not allow that to overcome us and defeat us but instead to overcome it and use the experience to learn and grow.

We are not puppets controlled by some being we call God. If God had wanted robots he would have created robots instead of people. Instead he created human beings and gave us free will so that we could be co-creators with him. He made us caretakers of this world and everything in it and each other too.

We are not blown about by the wind of fate or destiny. We control our own destinies and the destiny of the world by the choices we make for ourselves and for our world. In making choices we sometimes screw up and do the wrong things. Then we pay the consequences for it by being hurt, hurting others, and generally making a mess out of our lives, possibly the lives of others and the world. Those screw ups can be lessons if we choose to allow God to help us learn those lessons.

Or we can choose not to do all the things I just said. We can choose to just let life happen to us and blame it on something or someone outside of ourselves, we can choose to just give up and let the things that happen to us make us bitter and hate filled and miserable, and we can choose to never think about our actions and the effect they have on ourselves and others and ultimately the world. We can choose not to learn the lessons of our screw ups. And ultimately we can choose not to believe in God. And we can choose to rationalize away free will and not believe in that either. But ultimately whether any of us here on this thread believe in free will or not, it is only due to the fact that we had the free will to make that choice.

Lotus I think you are very right. I also believe that every word and every action has a ripple effect on the world. It is like taking a stone and tossing it into the water. The ripples flow out from that just as they flow out from every act we do. Those ripples we put out is what creates either peace and love or a world in chaos filled with evil and hate. If our world is in a mess it is due the actions of humankind.

To do nothing is our choice too and I think that apathy is the opposite of love. Not hate. There is a passage in Revelations where Jesus is talking to the different churches and he says to one of those churches, "you are neither hot or cold but lukewarm." He goes on to say, " I would prefer that you be either hot or cold and because you are lukewarm I will vomit you right out of my mouth." Pretty harsh words in regards to apathy.

posted September 08, 2006 07:30 AM              

I'm reminded of those miniature Zen Gardens..it is most important to til the Garden of the Soul..patiently and carefully with fore-thought. ...

posted September 08, 2006 11:25 AM            

If you argue that will precedes choice,
all you are saying is that will is not chosen.

Choices based on pure will are blind,
random, chaotic, and unconscious.

A conscious choice, on the other hand,
is determined by the knowledge at one's disposal
and the powers of reason with which one is graced,
as well as by desire and intuition.

posted September 08, 2006 02:55 PM            

You have to decide that there's a decision to be made, which I'd tribute to will.

Then you have to make that decision, which is the choice.

Then the result of your choice represents your will.

posted September 14, 2006 03:39 AM            

The belief in individual autonomy
is the result of man's inability
to view components as part of the whole.

That all things bleed into one another,
and lose the appearance of separateness,
is clear to anyone who exercises
the ability to see things peripherally,
and to turn one's head,
in order to perceive more than what
is immediately visible of the world.

The viewpoint of an individual is narrow and materialistic
if it does not take fight on the wings of the intellect,
in order to perceive a bird's-eye-view of creation.

The imagination, like a phoenix, can climb higher still.

A god's-eye-view perceives ALL things
as components of a larger whole,
and the choices of a limited mind/will
as determined by the machinations of the One Mind/Will.

Who fails to consider the relationship
of a limited mind/will to the larger Mind/Will
of which it is an infinitesimal part,
does so at the bidding of his/her ego,
which is ever fearful of being lost in the Greater Whole.

"Whosoever would save a self shall lose it,
but whosoever would lose a self for the sake of the Kingdom,
shall have life everlasting."

This is true.
It is not politically correct.
It is not popular.
It does not cater to the whims of the masses
and their egoistic, delusional preconceptions,
lauded in the jargon of the "new age".

I do not expect to be agreed with,
or applauded for my honesty,
on account of having said it.

But, I would request that anyone who
might think to accuse me of disrespect,
ask themselves this question:
Whether it shows more respect for a person
to speak to them as one might speak to a small child,
incapable of chewing his or her own meat
(or even swallowing and digesting it at all),
or to speak to them as one might speak to a grown person,
capable of chewing his or her own meat
(and swallowing and digesting it without internal complaint).
"Milk for babes, and meat for strong men."

posted September 14, 2006 07:56 PM              

I can only offer my individual perspective, which is probably different than another's might be.
Your thoughts inspire me to contemplation/expansion, and I've felt genuinely inspired to spiral from them, as I always do.

But there became a sense that the natural direction of my freedom of expression or 'spiraling', was in some way attempting to be controlled. There seemed to be an expectation of response or at least in the way I should respond, and this began to feel repressive, so my natural response was rebellion.
I never believed it was your conscious intention and there was no harm done. I just fluttered off for a bit to freer spaces, where I felt my ponderings would be taken or not, but Free to flow onwards in their natural direction.

I appreciate honesty and intellect. I appreciate all of your posts, which have obviously been written with much care and thought. I don't feel any need for validation or applause either. I don't want philosophies pampered onto me like a child, (although I think to put away all childish things seems sad to me) but I do strive for Freedom in all ways. Above all I want Realness, which is why I feel I cannot fully embrace many New Age concepts. It seems oftentimes New Age metaphysical philosophies, imho anyway, seem to deny One for the other...
or in other Words, in so emphatically embracing Oneness, above All, from this very focus restrict the more broader expansion of growth found in embracing All, without exclusion.

I entirely planned on fluttering back, and I knew time would find me tempted to spiral with you again.

So while I'm here...we've discussed Will in so many of its various forms, but have we discussed No Will yet?

Could All, being truly All exclude the existance of the other?
How could there be Will, without No Will?

posted September 14, 2006 08:07 PM            

I love you!!
I love everyone!
Yes, no,
never put away ALL childish -
or maybe, that should be, childlike -
things!
Childhood is fun.

Hey, I just watched "Elf"...
Have you seen it?
It is cute.
I feel like Will Ferrell's character, "Buddy"
almost half the time, -
its just one of my moooooods.

I feel like Christmas!!!

Yay!
I dont want to repress anyone.

But I think some things are true,
and some things are illusions,
and....
Actually, no,
I think all things are illusions,
or, rather, all things are true,
but some things are more true than others...
hmmm....

I'm not sure what you mean by No Will,
but it sounds super interesting.
A penny for your thoughts?

posted September 14, 2006 10:29 PM            

I don't know what to make of this HSC. Are you keeping up the topic? I don't discern any new information. I do see some implied insults:

"man's inability to view components as part of the whole"

"The viewpoint of an individual is narrow and materialistic if it does not take fight on the wings of the intellect,"

"does so at the bidding of his/her ego,
which is ever fearful of being lost in the Greater Whole."

"the masses and their egoistic, delusional preconceptions, lauded in the jargon of the 'new age'."

Those are some pretty heavy charges to throw at people, and probably not justified by simply saying that you're talking adult to adult.

I don't buy any of the talk of intellect or near-sightedness, nor do I care for Lotus-like claim of other people's fearfulness as an excuse for why people don't see things your way.

I feel like I'm being harsh here, and I really have no interest in being mean to you as I see you as a very sensitive person, but at the same time I'm responding to what you wrote the way you wrote it, so if it's harsh it's merely in response to the somewhat condescending tone you chose to write in.

I think this all goes back to being an effective communicator. If you want people to take your ideas seriously, then it's your responsibility to present them in a way that doesn't offend. It's not a matter of age. It's a matter of respect. Simply being an adult doesn't give one license to speak insultingly.

1 Corinthians 13:11 contains this passage:
"When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me."

The rest of the chapter is entirely about love:

1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

posted September 14, 2006 11:38 PM              

quote:

---

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

---

So beautiful, AG. The very reasons that I chose to respond in the way I did. (in rememberance of special glimpses)
But then I'm the ultimate rambling Fool, who regardless of anything contrary, never ceases to believe in everything meaningful and good. It's not an easy path, and not one I'm sure I would recommend. You weren't harsh, good friend, just Truthful from Your Self. And that's admirable.

I've never seen Elf, HSC, but I had the feeling that reminding you of the importance of remaining innocent at heart was redundant.

No Will would be the random occurrences beyond all control. Beyond ours. Beyond God's. We are comforted with order and reason. It keeps us safe in our little nests.
So comforted, that this is a concept of which most people don't begin to entertain.
Not as much the concept of ourselves not having control, we can accept that a bit easier. But the concept that there are things even beyond God's control.
It's too disconcerting to most. There's an instability in it that would shake our entire foundations.
God not in control???!!!
Why, the entire Universe may implode any second!!!

That would be, once again, thinking in extremity. Will/No Will...the balance might be what is holding it All together in harmony, for all we know.

posted September 16, 2006 12:45 AM            

I appreciate your sensitivity
and your point of view.
I am not dismissing it,
but I feel I have considered it a great deal,
and I still chose to speak as I do.

There remains a deep ambivalence in me
concerning the manner in which I speak,
but I feel it is a matter of integrity,
and necessity, for me to speak bluntly.
I understand how parents must feel,
when they say, "This hurts me more than it hurts you."
And I know how they must feel,
when their children dont believe a word of that,
and accuse them of having no love for them.

I know that speaking this way
will not win me the greatest number of listeners.
I know it will not make me popular,
or make me look like the compassionate soul
that I feel I truly am.
But looks can be deceiving,
and so can our personal reactions.
What hurts you to hear,
may save your eternal soul a lot quicker
than some pretty words,
designed to make you smile,
and lull you back to sleep.

I am not a politician.
I am not overly concerned with
attuning myself to the Libran vibration.
I am not going to tend every seed perfectly.
There are others far better suited to that task.
I am here to scatter seeds,
and let them fall where they may,
and let them be rejected, or taken to heart.

I assure you,
my arms are indeed wide open,
but I am more than open arms.
I hold a key, or, rather,
I wear it close to my heart,
for it cannot be held in the hand...

The eye of this key is slight;
it must be threaded like the eye of a needle
and worn in this way, close to the heart,
if it is to be carried at all.
One cannot enter the kingdom without it.
For, although the heart stands ready
to receive any and all who would knock,
the mind is like a lock on the door,
and such is the need for understanding.

"Strait is the gate,
and narrow is the way that leads to salvation,
and few there be that find it."

It may resemble an insult,
when I inform you of your ignorance,
and the baser motives
which lead you to reject my instructions,
or the uncompromising words in which they are given.
But it is only your pride which stings.
Do not think yourself immune to such snares.
And do not shoot the messenger,
when the news seems bad
(which is in fact good);
do not blame me for what you lack,
simply because I make it known to you,
and present to you that key
which you have long sought
without knowing what it is you seek.

My key is this:
Do not think there is no power greater than your own.
There is but ONE power in all creation,
and it is this which ought to be regarded
before any man regards himself.

"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom:
but fools despise wisdom and instruction."

Do not be a fool.

Do not cling to the mirage of freedom
which you think resides in your mortal will.
See how it is given to you by God.
See how it is God who gives,
God who withholds, and God who takes away.
See that no man is responsible
for the good or evil that is wrought in him.
This is understanding.
This is the way to forgiveness,
acceptance, and, finally,
the great love of which you speak.

posted September 16, 2006 09:05 AM              

Every question is worthy
and for each indidual to determine
its validity, not you.
It isn't your place to presume
anything about anyone,
or to assume their relationship
with or understanding of God.

Others would show you mercy, humility, thoughtfulness and compassion,
in ways you wouldn't show them.
Yet you expect others to
believe you are a messenger through God
of mercy, humility, thoughtfulness
and compassion--
your message of God's will is lost
in Your own

and yet you believe us
too ignorant to notice this obvious hypocrisy.

F*ck talk of Will, you have overstepped boundaries of consideration,
You have continued to insult others here who are very wise themselves and dear and have shown time and again they are humble enough to listen to you.
They have much to teach you.

What does it all mean?
Why can't we know?
There's something greater
out there
than we could ever fathom
Some deep mystery
just beyond our grasp
Unattainable in this lifetime
yet lingering ever still

Forever haunting us
with its hidden promise

Forever lost
in our stubborn Will.