posted November 11, 2007 06:16 PM         

Does it exist? What do you think?

Can a person's karma be measured or estimated
based on the evidence of this present life?

Material and Spiritual Karma:

Some say that there are two types of good karma.
Materially good karma comes and goes.
A person born wealthy, or with certain talents,
who is sheltered from the harsher side of life,
and acheives great material success in the world
(as an executive, author, movie star, etc.),
may think they are an old soul with lots of good karma.

But some who teach about karma will say that such people,
if they do not make spiritual use of their good karma,
are just blowing their karmic wad,
and will come back, next time, or the time after next,
as a starving person in Africa, or something.

Likewise, many are born sick or deformed,
and attribute this to "bad karma",
but maybe it is just a speed bump
in the larger scheme of incarnations.
Perhaps it is the last vestiges of bad karma
being exhausted, once and for all,
and the next life will be truly fortunate.
Perhaps Hitler reincarnated as a saint.

They say spiritual karma is never exhausted, it only grows.

But who knows.
One rascal writes it,
with or without good intentions,
and a million fools repeat it.

Is there really a difference between spirit and matter?

Does everything come and go?

Have we all incarnated as avatars many times?

Who really knows?

Ecclesiastes says:
"Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?...
There is no end of all the people, even of all that have been before them: they also that come after shall not rejoice in him. Surely this also is vanity and vexation of spirit...
For who knoweth what is good for man in this life, all the days of his vain life which he spendeth as a shadow? for who can tell a man what shall be after him under the sun?...
God also hath set the one over against the other, to the end that man should find nothing after him...
a man cannot tell what shall be; and what shall be after him, who can tell him?"

And, yet,
the first line of Ecclesiastes:
"Cast thy bread upon the waters:
for thou shalt find it after many days."

Some say animals reincarnate as people,
and people reincarnate as animals
(especially those who enjoy mostly the sensual side of life).
Some say a person never reincarnates as an animal.
Who knows?
Who do we believe?

I think its very possible that we do not have individual souls,
or, rather, that our souls are deeply intertwined.

There are stories of Bodhissatvas
who stopped short on the brink of Nirvana,
and returned for the sake of others,
swearing never to attain salvation
until after all other sentient lifeforms.
Perhaps this is how it must be?

Perhaps none of us will reach Nirvana
until all of us do.

Perhaps we will all reincarnate forever.

Perhaps the "goal" isnt not to reincarnate.

I don't know.

What do you think and why?

posted November 11, 2007 08:00 PM         

I just think there are all sorts of reasons why things happen.

There are so many different ways in which we learn.

posted November 12, 2007 09:50 AM         

You know, at least in India, we believe in cycle of death and rebirth and the principle of 'good karma, bad karma' as much as one would believe in maths!
The belief is ingrained since childhood when stories of Ram, Sita, Krishna are told by grannies and via comic books and TV serials. It is a belief that is INGRAINED in the collective consciousness of the country. It is part of the culture. I do not know but would suppose that the belief of the holy trinity of father, son and holy ghost is ingrained in Christian society in much the same way, with much the same faith.

I like to think that the concept of karma is like the concept of energy!!

Energy (whether potential or kinetic or gravitational or magnetic, electrical, whatever!) is not what ACTUALLY exists. Its a hypothetical concept. Force is what actually exists and we could solve all the problems of physics without any reference to energy. Energy is only a representation of an effect of force. We employ the concept of energy to make problems easier and better understandable! Similarly, karma could be a necessary hypothetical concept that solves problems! It may be only that and may not exist. So, if this be so, then what is that thing or entity or 'force' whose effect karma is? That would be our work. Since force has energy attributed to it -- only a hypothetical concept so we can have the 'potential energy' of work dubbed as karma!

Thus, even if it is only a hypothetical concept, it remains useful.

posted November 12, 2007 10:21 AM         

Isnt work an example of "kinetic" force?
Isnt the force always there in "potential"?
Isnt it true that energy changes forms,
in the sense that kinetic force is communicated
from one point to another, but, that,
the energy never originates in any place or time;
it is always circling, and when it reaches the individual,
"Vwalla!" - work.
In this sense, the karma of an individual
is linked to the karma of the ALL,
and we ourselves are just waves,
rising out of and falling into the ocean.
Karma, like the life of the individual,
never originates or dies, but only seems to.
So, the true life is the life of the ALL,
the true karma is the karma of the ALL,
and the only works are the works of the ALL.
(((((But, THIS is THAT.)))))

"Or", is karma our potential energy,
and the kinetic energy, when it reaches us,
adjusts to our potential like a mold,
so that the same force is fortunate for some,
unfortunate for others?

But, if there is only one force...
Shaping us and filling us,...

It's like walking the razor's edge, isnt it?

In order to be in the world, we must perform actions.
In order to be in the truth, we must know inaction.
So, living the truth in the world, is the action of inaction.

But is this what we are,
or what we are trying to be?

Or is it both?

"Oh well, whatever, nevermind."
~ Kurt Cobain
(incarnation of Shiva)

Thanks for your comments.

hsc

posted November 12, 2007 06:07 PM         

The west do not believe in it. But in their actions its apparent they believe in "What comes around goes around".

posted November 12, 2007 07:21 PM         

Yes, that is what Karma Yoga (union through action) is about. The word is derived from "kri" meaning, "to do". Becoming an instrument of God, keeping him in mind at all times and giving your work and the fruits of your labor to God. Losing yourself in the "work" and in and for the love of God. The karma yogi does not expect or anticipate any rewards for the work "he does". He knows who the real Doer is.

posted November 12, 2007 07:34 PM         

quote:

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I think karma became a distortion; an excuse to judge and abuse.

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posted November 12, 2007 07:36 PM         

~ Kahlil Gibran

"Follow your bliss." ~ Joseph Campbell

posted November 12, 2007 07:38 PM         

quote:

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I think karma became a distortion; an excuse to judge and abuse.

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posted November 12, 2007 07:41 PM         

karma perhaps is a teaching principle...a guiding force, leading us always back to ourselves. once we re-discover our essence, we have transcended the bounds of karma. i have stated elsewhere this idea of karma, as that of a shoe...and the manner in which we lace it on our foot. should we tie it too tightly we will feel pain, and adjust accordingly. should it be too loose, we will feel discomfort, and adjust as well. when it fits, we walk in comfort, on the path that we are on.

once we've made the necessary adjustment, the need for the karma no longer exists...and we move on. if we fail to adjust appropriately, we remain in discomfort. it's always within our capacity to walk in comfort.

i see karma as guidance rather than payback. sometimes we must add and at times we must subtract. as the moon waxes and wanes. as goddess bestows and relieves.

so what is karma then, but an agent of love, the substance that holds the universe together....the source of creation?

posted November 12, 2007 07:42 PM         

quote:

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so what is karma then, but an agent of love, the substance that holds the universe together

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posted November 12, 2007 07:58 PM         

quote:

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there is a reason for everything..that happens..for every action..a re-action..the universal laws are very simple..you reap what you sow..you get what you give..every bad thing that has happened to me in this particular life..was put in motion..from the beginning..I accept my karma..and learn and grow..and forgive..coming full circle..this allows me to keep a balance..a center in me..
evil..and darkness..and fear..are only as strong as you allow them to be..an evil entity..has little energy..very low..ah..but feed it your fear..and negativity..and watch it grow. ..." Lotusheartone.

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posted November 12, 2007 08:33 PM         

i love life -- it's a blessing, a privilege, a delight, to have this opportunity to be in this life, every nuanced bit.

everything in it is a song. that's what i believe.

but i suppose some could choose to see it differently though.

posted November 12, 2007 08:38 PM         

Albeit, its not material money but spiritual money.

LH, made a good point of finding the center within us. To find the center is to be in the now (present). When we are in the now, past and future are not in conflict but at ease. In actuality they don't exist because they become clear. Most of us burn our pay backs with a conscious understanding of past. Love makes you understand, from understanding comes acceptance or even rejection(rejection is not a bad thing), and then comes forgiveness.

Most scorpio (just 3 days less than Nov 22) have a tendency to delight in revenge and keeps the karma cycle ever running

Perhaps everything has its purpose in place otherwise you won't see them in existence or around us. Good/Bad is indeed relative, we have to determine what is the meaning or leave it to God (let him take over). I do not worry about what I ate yesterday or what I will eat tomorrow. Same with such issues of life that we face every day.

posted November 12, 2007 08:42 PM         

quote:

---

a post from a while back ~

karma perhaps is a teaching principle...a guiding force, leading us always back to ourselves. once we re-discover our essence, we have transcended the bounds of karma. i have stated elsewhere this idea of karma, as that of a shoe...and the manner in which we lace it on our foot. should we tie it too tightly we will feel pain, and adjust accordingly. should it be too loose, we will feel discomfort, and adjust as well. when it fits, we walk in comfort, on the path that we are on.

once we've made the necessary adjustment, the need for the karma no longer exists...and we move on. if we fail to adjust appropriately, we remain in discomfort. it's always within our capacity to walk in comfort.

i see karma as guidance rather than payback. sometimes we must add and at times we must subtract. as the moon waxes and wanes. as goddess bestows and relieves.

so what is karma then, but an agent of love, the substance that holds the universe together....the source of creation?

---

posted November 12, 2007 09:10 PM         

from rsarchive

Also, this site seems to be credible in explaining some of Steiner's concepts, though I am not 100% sure. The article here provides some interesting points. I especially liked the inclusion of chance occurrences, or random influences, in the Universe.

posted November 12, 2007 11:11 PM         

They have an amazing ability of attuning to a collective rhythm/harmony,
while retaining individual ability to wander their own way.
The flitter off, then come back again somehow syncing right back into the mass harmony, as if they had never wandered away. Like an otherworldly mysterious dance, they move together. It's amazing this intuition they have for each other that moves them as One. It's fascinating to watch.

Also amazing to me, is the trust they have that going their lone way, they won't lose their way back.
The intuition of syncing, breaking away, returning (the dance) is within all of us.
We forget. We don't trust ourselves or each other. Most importantly, I think...
we don't trust surrendering ourselves to Universal Waves we cannot see. It's scary to let go and break away. To just trust we will be taken care of.
So, we remain stuck in a closed circle that goes round and round again and lose our own song in it.

To me, karma is breaking free--
in doing so is how we find our way back.
Breaking free = Liberation.
Liberation returns us,
only this time, with new awareness of patterns that chain us the mindless wheel.
We can flitter off, yet return in a harmony that allows us to BE and doesn't hold us back or down. Oneness and Freedom are best served, best embraced, best understood together.

posted November 13, 2007 12:10 PM         

HSC,

Let me explain my point elaborately. I only wished to emphasize the fact that we sometims use hypothetical concepts to understand and study diff. things. Do we not? Numbers are abstract entities, no? But there existence helps us count things.

Just that I wanted to emphasize.

SInce you raised the question, so I will tell you that the work of a force is defined as kinetic energy. If you write Newton's third law, F = Ma. And do some basic calculus on it, you will find that the work of this force (disance that the object on which it is aplied multiplied by the magnitude of the force) equals the change in kinetic energy of the object. (Further: Now forces and conservative and non-conservative. Thus we can say that sum of works of these two forces equals change in kinetic energy. Now we take the work of conservaive forces to the right side of the eqn and write potential energy instead of it! Thus potential energy is the negative of the work of conservative forces. Thus, finally work of non conservative force = potential + kinetic enegy.]

Thus since force is in the left side of the eqn and it is the mathematics of it that evolves that gives us the concept of energy, so clearly force is what actually is! In fact it is frm this mathematics that we have developed the concept of energy.

That is it my friend. If you like you can use this model to analyze karma. Like you have done I see!

Any more questions are welcome. Hope that was clear enuf!