posted October 28, 2008 10:26 PM         

What is most amazing about the Bible are the "saphires in the mud".

Wade through the blood and muck and you find some beautiful truths.

As always, make up your own mind,
and don't get hung-up on literal interpretations.

posted November 01, 2008 01:09 PM         

Its good to see people thinking. Still, you'll have to forgive me, if I have only objections to make...

First, you are in no position to know which skills, etc., are strictly human, and will or will not carry over into future (human or nonhuman) bodies,
or why we are born with certain, advantageous or inadventageous, talents, traits, and/or abilities, into compatible or incompatible environments.
These are the questions which common theories on reincarnation attempt to provide answers for, so,
if you dismiss reincarnation as such, you still have these questions to answer, -- yet, here, you've substituted no alternative theories of your own.

Second, the only people I know who have transcended the ego are enlightened masters, and they are few and far between.
Are these the only souls who can be called "old", or even "older than many, or most"?
If that is your position, I have to say, your comments there dont really make any sense.

Lastly, the analogy of the child and the Nobel Prize winner, like all analogies, can only be stretched so far...
After all, being an old soul, and being an old man are not, and were never intended to be, equivocal.
You should read my second post "Thanks, guys..." for clearer insight into my thoughts on this.

posted November 05, 2008 06:33 PM         

You are correct. Since we have no true objective, qualitative evidence of what really happens after death, all is simply theory. (Personally, I'm trying on new ideas and I welcome your objections because I'm willing to admit I'm wrong and take on new perpectives.) the problem I still have is that if I'm shot in the head and survive - being rendered to some vegetable, most of what was me is lost and therefore impermanent. We act out of the roles we have in this life. Males in general have distinct difference from females. I work with many gay individuals and they have traits of the opposite sex. Many of our reactions can be traced to our Socioeconomic status, birth order, biological temperment. Whether any of this exists beyond death is questionable, but the fact that their is a direct impact on our "soul" from being human cannot be ignored. so I'm open to maybe it is possible that some of this is carried from life to life is reincarnation is possible, but I still feel strongly most of it is not since our egos control most of our decisions and life in general. We truly do not know who we are because our ego clouds ourselves. I also feel that some people totally come from ego and it is a definite possibility that when they pass the spirit gained nothing from that life and remains unchanged. it is a possibility - you do understand that distinction? yes. It is also possible that we come from another planet long long ago. I may not believe it, but it is possible.

I do not trust self-proclaimed advanced souls. All people are flawed - sometimes especially the people that say they are not. Look closer at the "guru" Could this person co-exist in your workplace and mingle with us regular folks. If not, perhaps the person has set themsleves apart as some way of enhancing their "specialness" It is impossible to to not come from the ego since to do so you would no longer have a body.

posted November 06, 2008 04:55 PM         

quote:

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Tink-
If we are all "One" then there are no superiors or inferiors. that concept stems from the ego.

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Kat, I agree that "superior" is an undesirable label. It simply carries too many unpleasant connotations. Personally, I prefer "skilled" or "refined".

quote:

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I think it's important to recognize what is skilled behavior and not skilled behavior and try to have understanding and compassion(not judgement just recognition) for those missing the mark and try to emulate those with high standards. All people have something to offer because in this existence we are born with different traits.

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Absolutely. So many are very sensitive to the idea of judgement - and with good reason, of course. A hateful and compassionless judgement is an act of the lower self. I believe that nurturing a proper recognition of the above mentioned skills and a sense of moral discernment are essential to our spiritual growth. Also, as you said, we all have attributes and natural talents. Rather than just criticising, when we remember to always look for the beauty and strength in another spirit, even those less "refined" than ourselves, we do so much for the advancement of our own soul, don't you think?

quote:

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I would trust a highly intelligent doctor to diagnose which antibiotic to use for a sinus infection, just as I would trust an honest and highly skilled mechanic to diagnose a noise in my car. I have abilities that others do not have so I am responsible for seeing them through. If we are "one" then the answers are within us or readily available if you search.

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Yes, I trust that the answers are there within. I also feel we must, at one point or another, afford a certain degree of trust to a skilled guide that would help us uncover that often deeply buried truth. This is a humbling and very often painful sort of surrender, but, it seems to me, inevitable for those seeking initiation.

posted November 06, 2008 06:27 PM         

HSC I reread my comments and have the following to add. I was under some time constraints and maybe this clarifies the situation. Probably not.

Here is my alternative theory. It's hard to put into a nutshell and give supporting facts in a short reply... and it will probably change in a few months and that's the good fun of this all because theory and knowledge are not of importance in the untimate sense only your ability to choose to come from a loving place. that's it that the core of it.

God is expansive energy, No emotion, ego, etc.( Too incredible to express and define.)There are qualities to this world which are not clear, but certain behaviors thought pattern, and actions are in alignment with this source and others behaviors thought patterns and actions are not in alignment with Source. Ego, separation, fear, and lack are not in alignment. Love, expansion, connection are in alignment. We can either plug into this Source or choose to remain unconscious and act our our default behaviors and roles that we grew up with and react through unskilled behavior. Some people luck out with great parents, money, looks, talent, safety, etc. but guess what? that doesn't matter anyway. Can you come from a place of love or is everything based on lack and fear? If we are truly one with source and each other, a theory I now hold is that there are no separation of souls and source energy. We are one big pot of soup that runs through everything, every blade of grass, tree, animals it's like we are all plugged in and only a few of us are aware of this. We are all human and unfortunately some of us are better packaged than others. Biology,SES, environment, and everything else makes us what we are as a human ------ and the truth is none of it matters!!!! We get hung up on it, we view it as unfair, We expect rewards, We think we are entitled. We think we are superior. We view some situations as better or worse. We think some people are disadvantaged. We think some are advantaged. We created all of this story about everything. We created this humanity and all of it's conditions!!!!! Not God. We ran the course our way and created poverty. We created racism. We held people down and kept them from reaching their full potential. We are all in this together and we all either wake up or continue this illusion! If we continue with our little roles and do not wake up then, we all suffer. (read New Earth please)Some of us who have never tapped into source will live a shell of a life and just die off. Source will remain unchanged always. there is nothing to improve with Source. If a person advances then mass consciousness improves and the chances of source energy filtering through is improved. Source energy is perfect we are not and the less perfect we are, we become like a knob that isn't quite on the radio station. The source energy is reincarnated, but we humans have one life to live. Our body and anything attached to it - dies! Your comment "... you are in no position to know which skills, etc. are stictly human, and will or will not carry over into future..." is only partially correct. Science has shown what happens when our brain is impaired and injured. some view this evidence of atheism, but I feel that there is a consciousness the energy that dwells in everything. I believe that this energy continues on - not us. Humanity dies. If we connect and align with this energy, it can flow through us now and we can lock on a connection and that part of "us" that clicked with the energy continues on. the bible states that we are separated like wheat from shaft and I think the part that is pitched is the human part. The concept of reincarnation is a perpetuation of the ego and separation. There is no separation and inconsistency in the "domain" of God only this world.

People that have transcended the ego are fortunate people that won the awareness lottery. they have an obligation with sharing their insight with others but not to view themselves as superior. some people will never get it. But if others treat each other in a loving mannerm, more and more of us will.

posted November 10, 2008 08:50 PM         

Its nice talking with a thoughtful person...

I hope we will be able to assist one another despite the apparent fact that our essential approaches to these matters seem to be at variance. The very conclusions of your thoughts, the places where you seem to have come full circle, and arrived contentedly at a platitude you have always taken for granted... are places that I begin my inquiry. And the same may be true of your inquiries into my conclusions. I encourage you to find your own truth, and stick with what works for you, even as I voice a truth of my own which may be, to all human understanding, antagonistic to yours.

I would agree that love is primary, but we may have very different ideas, as people often do, about what constitutes loving behavior. Some will say that love is whatever makes the other person feel good, and that, if you provoke discomfort, you are not loving. Some will say that love is precisely what provokes and challenges another person to confront their shadow and unhealed wounds. Some might say that love includes taking the time to articulate yourself clearly, to use punctuation, etc., in order to distinguish one thought from the next, and to save your reader any additional trouble in figuring out your meaning. Some want you to be clear and direct. Some want you to hem and haw a little, for delicacy's sake. Some want a balance between directness and delicacy, but who can agree on when that balance has been perfectly maintained?

Your conclusion, for instance, that a loving person is one who blends into any environment, is something I question, though it is something you reference almost off-hand, to support the validity of things which I find far more convincing by themselves. I dont think Jesus or Buddha would care to fit into an office situation, or that the manifestation of their highest purpose has anything to do with office buildings, or making people even more comfortable with the status quo. I just don't buy that. You may say that they have the ability to do that, but, what does it mean to have an ability which you will never use, and the using of which would negate who and what you are? Really, it is an ability which you have, but have not the ability to make use of, lol. I think, rather, that they may have required something of you, in order for you to feel connected to them. I think they would have encouraged this shift, not by mimicking (I want to say "aping") the everyman, but, by shining proudly, yet lovingly, in their own right. I think they were able to be different, and to distinguish themselves, without coming from an egoistic motive. I would even go so far as to say that the people who cannot fit inconspicuously into this society may, more often than not, be more "skilled" or "refined" than the others, in a certain area, or sense. J. Krishnamurti wrote: "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." I think he was onto something.

As for Oprah.. I like her and I think, for the most part, her heart is in the right place, but I often see her taking a very self-righteous and superior attitude towards many of her guests. I see her very bluntly (and very publicly) "correct" them in little matters of new age nomenclature which hardly matter at all -- and she will interrupt their recounts of abuse and other very personal experiences in order to point these things out, very smugly, it seems to me. In those instances, she seems to come from a place of intellect, and overconcern with the theories, rather than sympathizing, empathizing, and being present with the person in that very powerful moment. Perhaps she has become a little desensitized to people's stories of suffering, having listened to so many?

As for the whole "superior" versus "skilled, refined"... I suppose it is a distinction worth making, for expediency's sake, but we know well enough that the ego will just read "superior" when you type "skilled" or "refined", while, when we are coming from a place beyond the ego, even the word "superior" poses no stumbling block to our understanding. So, in this sense, it can be very telling to use the word "superior" and see whose ego objects first, lol.

I disagree that an egoless being would be disincarnate, although it is possible. There is a tendency to think that, if a being has a body, it has a perspective, and, if it has a perspective, it is subjectively oriented, and incapable of directly participating in that higher life. I cant easily articulate my impressions of what enlightenment is, although I believe it mingles the seemingly contradictory notions of identity and non-identity. It is, in essence, playing a part, a distinct, individual, and particular part, while being fully conscious of the fact that this "part" is actually being played by the whole -- and yet, there is no distinction. You are located in the body, yes, but this localization is a sort of agreed upon farce. At least, this is what I seem to have heard, and it sounded cool to me, so, I'll believe in it, tentatively, for the time being. An enlightened being, a God, who did not reconcile in himself these two contradictions would seem, to me, less magnificent, and less complete.

I also dont think that it is possible to make no progress, or to go backwards, in a lifetime, although that can appear to be the case. It makes more sense to me, -- or perhaps it is just a more beautiful thought -- to suppose that, although the path may zig and zag, may level off at times, and even appear to double back on itself, it is still the path up the mountain, and the shortest distance between the summit and the peak. Maybe its my Jupiterian optimism that wants it this way, but, anyway, it makes a beautiful and crazy kind of sense to me.

nice talking,
HSC

posted November 11, 2008 06:58 PM         

My views are that there is no way to escape the ego whether your Oprah, or anyone else. No way! so I agree she has recently taken on a superior attitude and I have made a discerning judgement to still consider her a teacher. I do not give over any power to her as a some would to a guru and I take everything in question like I always do!

I agree - Love is difficult to define, not even the course of Miracles can define it. Much of my current journey has occured because I questioned "what if God is not Love?" It's been a Hellish and eye-opening path of exploration and I would only recommend it if your willing to spend alot of time sorting out the many views that arise.

A highly skilled person (not loving- not sure where you got that?)blends into any environment means basically they know how to "hold their own." Yes they may not want to be part of certain situations but they can effectively deal with a variety of circumstances. Jesus had a family accountant which implies he may have been wealthy. He also dealt with people who were criminals, ill, etc. He fit into a variety of circumstances and situations. (This comment really was intended to apply to many "spiritual" people who have dropped out of society and and taken on a personna because they really were escaping something they were not able to deal with. I've met plenty of these and steer clear, but treat them respectfully.) It is correct that "It is no measue of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." But someone who is skilled can effectively deal with the challenges of any unskilled situation with anyone. Since I am in modern times in America, I've found that the best teachers (informal - they don't know that they are teachers) are cameleons. watch for this and see if this now makes sense.

I think most people do not think in terms of skilled and unskilled behavior because to have skilled behavior takes alot of of learning, modesty, and frankly most people do not know the difference between the two - we just act and react. Yes ego will say "I'm more skilled." And it will also think that my skills are correct and yours are not.(more reinforcement that we can never escape the ego!)Should we then use "workability?" Let's say an advanced person uses behavior that is highly "workable" (he he) I think the result are in the pudding or whatever that saying is. (Yes then that will be sujective again.) No way to escape the ego til your gone. We can only plug into "God" and do our best, make a stand for what we hold as our truth, let our light shine and all that cliche stuff, be respectful and try to use behavior that's "workable."

posted November 12, 2008 11:58 AM         

I have found this post interesting from the start.

Kat I agree with you about enlightened/old souls should be able to adjust to most situations, it would be a natural thing for them, to not only assess the situation at first but to know where they stood before they spoke since this is an example that Jesus set with several situations recorded in the Bible.
I would have to disagree with you on Jesus being wealthy while here on earth though. His father Joseph was a Carpenter, and most historians agree that he was raised in what is considered a middle class enviroment.
Whatever the case is though, Jesus knew how to handle himself the right way in every situation, because he relied so heavily on his connection to the Spirit, and his father never failed him.
I am sure he had learned that in previous incarnations, but what was important was the fact that he was able to use that knowledge to make the right decisions. Working through his Karma steadily to become one of the greatest men in our history in that recorded lifetime.
I agree with HSC in that Jesus honestly would not have cared if he fit in, in an office setting. He knew when to speak and when to stay quiet, and demonstrated it time and time again. He was almost a "quiet rebel" I think. lol

Life on Earth here is not meaningless though. Nothing done in this universe is meaningless least of all your spiritual journey this time around. You Kat are here for a reason, just as HSC is, and so am I. The talents and gifts that we carry over from past lives are just that, talents and gifts. Earned through tough lessons and strenuous trials.
I am sure if we had and if we have the recollection of the things we went through to acquire leadership skills, healing powers, psychic abilities, and esoteric knowledge, we would not or will not think them so special to have in a showy way, but cherish them and cultivate them humbly, just as there were recieved.
Like you Kat I too believe we are all equal. Our level of consciousness is something of a different matter. And I think that is what we tend to judge as "old" souls and "young" souls. Whatever the case is, does it really matter in the scheme of things?
Our whole experience here on Earth was designed to make
us turn inward and learn about the "God" that is in all of us. We are all made in his image, and it is going to be amazing to watch the changes take place in this earth over the course of the next 4 years and watch people find that connection again. It is a journey that we all have to make alone and I imagine alot of us will not be able to finish.

Our ego is huge and it is something that we contend with everyday. Every action and every decision. But I kind of view my ego as this force to be reckoned with. Somtimes it runs away with me, sometimes I run away with it. But I think the key is balance in everything we do. And I think we all know when our egos have swung out of balance, the question is do we listen to the form of correction that the universe will so promptly send to us whether we recognize it our not. But once we learn to put our egotistic notions in the proper place, we rise above there entrapment and have the ability to operate in a place of more free will, where the ego shuts up, but even that is not permanent. I think staying balanced is a lifelong long process. Which is why I guess your comment Kat of :

----Optimism is a good thing and great for exploring. Have fun with it your spiritual journey and know that it's all meaningless.---

Kind of did not resonate well with me. lol
Meaningless is such a hopeless, sad word.
Its a dark word to me in the context that you used it.

But it was nice to meet you Kat and your thoughts certainly are interesting. What a delightfully deep and philosophical person you are, one of my favorite type of souls.

posted November 12, 2008 07:21 PM         

quote:

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My views are that there is no way to escape the ego whether your Oprah, or anyone else. No way! so I agree she has recently taken on a superior attitude and I have made a discerning judgement to still consider her a teacher.

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That's healthy. I think we are all each other's teachers, and even the "lowest" of us still has something in him/her which most others still need to learn. So, it is good to look past character flaws in order to perceive what a person has to offer. If Oprah works for you, that's great.

quote:

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I do not give over any power to her as a some would to a guru and I take everything in question like I always do!

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It is good to question everything... I have been doing it all my life, and I wonder if there is an end to it. Will I ever be secure enough in what I think I know, in order to act on it with complete devotion to an ideal? What about faith? The whole guru-trip is pretty interesting, and I'm not sure what I think about it. What TINK wrote, about being humble, and surrendering the personal will, all sounds very lofty and noble. I just wonder how much effort it ought to take, or, if it can happen more organically.. can we trust, without dismissing our doubts and reservations? Can we arrive at a point of understanding, for ourselves, without adopting the belief system of someone who we see as more powerful? Tradition is a strange thing.. what is it, really, but the democracy of the dead? I have been accused of practicing a self-serving, "cafeteria" brand of religion; where I pick and choose what to accept and what not to, according to my own inner lights and preferences. Sometimes I even create a new dish (only to later find that someone else has beat me to it, lol). Does it make more sense to simply swallow whole whatever doctrine has been handed down? Lord only knows how many cooks were in the kitchen... The meal they ultimately offer us is not something any one of them prepared, but, rather, a mish-mash of doctrines more or less arbitrarily compacted. And, in selecting any tradition, one must neglect other traditions, so, one is making a choice there, just as I make a choice to follow one part of a tradition, and not the whole. Really, there is only one tradition, and many denominations.. so, just as TINK, for example, chooses one denomination, from many, I choose one doctrine from many within a particular denomination. The only difference is that I select each doctrine separately, and create my own religion, rather than subscribing to a religion sanctioned by some other authority. Maybe it is because I cannot locate the authority of any denomination.. they all seem to be a mish-mash of doctrines, not even compiled by a single individual, but by collaboration; and I mean the collaboration of tradition; the democracy of the dead. I suppose it would give me comfort to belong to a group of like-minded aspirants... a "church", or a "sangha". But I prefer to go my own way, and to think of the whole world as my church and my sangha, and to erode those distinctions which many people find so imperative. You probably have a similar view of this.

quote:

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I agree - Love is difficult to define, not even the course of Miracles can define it. Much of my current journey has occured because I questioned "what if God is not Love?" It's been a Hellish and eye-opening path of exploration and I would only recommend it if your willing to spend alot of time sorting out the many views that arise.

---

I just finished reading a great book, by a shaman lady who I was lucky enough to do some healing work with. The book is "Healing of the Soul; Shamanism and Psyche", and there is a lot of eye-openning stuff in there, which she reports from her personal experiences in the spirit world. Although we should understand that much of what she sees is "distorted" to fit her own perception and level of development, there is a lot to take in. She talks about how there are thought-forms that exist, created by (or creating?) our beliefs about them, and they grow to take on a life of their own. So, she says there is a thought-form Jesus. But I have to wonder, what about the soul of the real Jesus, if there was one? And how many thought-form Jesuses are there, anyway? I mean, he must appear slightly different to everyone who imagines him... But, anyway, yes, I came away with the feeling that there is definitely dark energy, and a war going on between good and evil, no matter how much i may want to deny it. She spoke of a place that her guides took her to see, and they protected her in a very thick bubble, and she saw it.. swirling in the space of another dimension, black and brown and grey, sucking in everything around it, and spitting out bits of itself. She was told, this is Hell. The Hell people have created and fed with their beliefs in it. So, what do we do? We need to be aware of these forces, in order to combat them, and, yet, we seem to give them power just by believing in them!

I always said, there is nothing that God can say or do, or reveal to me at some future point in time, that can justify the cruelty that exists down here below. If indeed these things exist (toture, rape, ritual abuse, holocausts) and are not merely a show put on by God -- and, really, for all I know, it could be an illusion, since I myself have never experienced anything so evil and unjustifiable, -- then, in the words of one philosophical saint, "Something is rotten in the state of Denmark." So, I dont go in for that "God is love" stuff, while equating the God who is love with the God who is everything, and who created this world. Or rather, I do, but with the full awareness that this is something I need to tap into, and to create! On some level, God is love,.. and the work may not be complete.. God's love may not be in control down here on earth. But, somehow, by willing that, and maybe even by simply believing in it, we can make it a reality. Tricky stuff.

quote:

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A highly skilled person (not loving- not sure where you got that?)blends into any environment means basically they know how to "hold their own." Yes they may not want to be part of certain situations but they can effectively deal with a variety of circumstances. Jesus had a family accountant which implies he may have been wealthy. He also dealt with people who were criminals, ill, etc. He fit into a variety of circumstances and situations.

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I dont know where you get your history, but, I am not sure the biblical Jesus ever existed. But that makes no difference, because religion, as I see it, is about truths, not facts. Whether or not he lived and died as they say, takes nothing away from the truth and beauty of the ideal he represents. But, to respond to your point.. Yes, he ate with "sinners". But, in doing so, he broke the taboos of his culture, and this is anything but "fitting in". He would not have been wealthy, though, if he was the same man who said "[If you would be like me.. ] Sell all that you have and give to the poor. It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter heaven." And, most importantly, he was crucified for his way of life. That is the supreme example of not fitting in. He was tossed out of the world for being who he was and doing what he did. Can you say that he "held his own". Well, sure, but only in that he was willing to die; to accept the consequences of his way of life.

quote:

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(This comment really was intended to apply to many "spiritual" people who have dropped out of society and and taken on a personna because they really were escaping something they were not able to deal with. I've met plenty of these and steer clear, but treat them respectfully.)

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I think you may be misjudging these people, and missing out on some of the best teachers available to you. The archetype of the wounded healer is emerging with special prominence in our time, and these people have much to impart, to those who can see past their wounds. That very same sensitivity which makes a person incapable of fitting into a "normal" job may very well be a mechanism which grants them insight into higher realms. Sure, the ideal teacher would be capable of anything, but, as you like to point out, we are all flawed; even Oprah. A few choice quotes ought to illustrate my point fairly well:

"In the psychopathic temperament we have the emotionality which is the sine qua non of moral perception; we have the intensity and tendency to emphasis which are the essence of practical moral vigor; and we have the love of metaphysics and mysticism which carry one's interests beyond the surface of the sensible world. What, then, is more natural than that this temperament should introduce one to regions of religious truth, to corners of the universe, which your robust Philistine type of nervous system, forever offering its biceps to be felt, thumping its breast, and thanking Heaven that it hasn't a single morbid fibre in its composition, would be sure to hide forever from its self-satisfied possessors? If there were such a thing as inspiration from a higher realm, it might well be that the neurotic temperament would furnish the chief condition of the requisite receptivity."
- William James "The Varieties of Religious Experience"

"The truly creative mind in any field is no more than this: A human creature born abnormally, inhumanely sensitive. To them... a touch is a blow, a sound is a noise, a misfortune is a tragedy, a joy is an ecstasy, a friend is a lover, a lover is a god, and failure is death. Add to this cruelly delicate organism the overpowering necessity to create, create, create -- so that without the creating of music or poetry or books or buildings or something of meaning, their very breath is cut off... They must create, must pour out creation. By some strange, unknown, inward urgency they are not really alive unless they are creating."
~ Pearl Buck

"What keeps most people from suffering very much is lack of imagination.... Everything great that we know has come to us from neurotics. It is they and only they who have founded religions and created great works of art. Never will the world be aware of how much it owes to them, nor, above all, what they have suffered in order to bestow their gifts upon it."
- Marcel Proust "In Search of Lost Time"

Often, the people who are so successful in the world accomplish this at the expense of developing spiritual faculties. I was reading about this, and how it corresponds to a failure of the upper chakras. Certain people appear very together and accomplished, and have no problem making things happen in the world, but they neglect relationships and higher thought. Always, there has been a distinction observed throughout history, between men of thought and men of action. It has become a cliche that some of the greatest creative geniuses were absent-minded and inept in dealing with worldly matters, almost childlike in their need to be taken care of and looked after. We may want to deny this for various reasons, but the evidence is clear to anyone willing to confront it.

quote:

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It is correct that "It is no measue of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." But someone who is skilled can effectively deal with the challenges of any unskilled situation with anyone.

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Define "effectively".
Would getting yourself crucified qualify?

quote:

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Since I am in modern times in America, I've found that the best teachers (informal - they don't know that they are teachers) are cameleons. watch for this and see if this now makes sense.

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I've seen it. But the versatility has more to do with a lack of boundaries between people, so they are able to slip into situations and make others feel like they are "one of them", so they can communicate things which others may not otherwise be open to. And, yes, I think there is a certain kind of person, a certain kind of teacher, whose presence is very unassuming, and whom you would not suspect was anything special. But I dont think this is a mark of all great teachers. Its just one kind. And, in the end, it takes all kinds.

quote:

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I think most people do not think in terms of skilled and unskilled behavior because to have skilled behavior takes alot of of learning, modesty, and frankly most people do not know the difference between the two - we just act and react. Yes ego will say "I'm more skilled." And it will also think that my skills are correct and yours are not.(more reinforcement that we can never escape the ego!)

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I will admit that my behavior is not skilled. I am more lunar, and instinctual in my approach to life. A more solar person might see this as merely reacting, but my experience is different. I admire the skills of earthy and solar people, who take a very active, detail oriented approach to life. I'm more of a free spirit who sort of exemplifies Tolkien's famous line, "Not all who wander are lost,". I do not say that my way is correct and their's is not. I think the truth is somewhere between us, and it is a balance that is difficult, perhaps impossible, to achieve. Perhaps no single person is ever meant to achieve it. Perhaps there is no single type of ideal; no single image of the perfected man. Perhaps we all have different parts to play, as the various organs of God. The hands should not deny the heart, nor the head, and vice-versa. We should honor and respect our differences, and the different gifts we each bring. If you look for only one type of teacher, or one type of gift, you may be missing out on a lot.

quote:

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Should we then use "workability?" Let's say an advanced person uses behavior that is highly "workable" (he he) I think the result are in the pudding or whatever that saying is. (Yes then that will be sujective again.)

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Indeed, it will be subjective. The pudding tastes different to different people. One person may accomplish a great deal, writing many books, with much wisdom, but they will be useful only to a certain type of seeker, and useless to everyone else. Someone may never write a line, but his words will be remembered, and written down by others, and, even if there is no book, no object we can look to and say, "Ah-ha! Pudding!", still, his thoughts, and his energy, have passed beyond himself and into the life of the world. And who knows where they will end? One man's pudding (his great and towering accomplishment) may never have come into being without the quiet encouragement or insight of another, forgotten individual. Such is life.

quote:

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No way to escape the ego til your gone. We can only plug into "God" and do our best, make a stand for what we hold as our truth, let our light shine and all that cliche stuff, be respectful and try to use behavior that's "workable."

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Yes! And, most importantly, we must be flexible, and open to change; we must realize that our wisdom is incomplete, and the purpose of life, at least, in part, is to bring us into contact with others who will challenge our preconceptions, and expand our understanding of what is God, or godly.

quote:

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Optimism is a good thing and great for exploring.

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Optimism and pessimism are both forms of expectation,
and I personally find neither of them very "workable".

quote:

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Have fun with it your spiritual journey and know that it's all meaningless.

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Unfortuneately, none of it is meaningless.
Every look, every smile, every grimace,
and every word, cruel or kind, finds a heart.
But, yes, we need to be careful of taking it so seriously
that we are unable to remain flexible and open.

I enjoyed this very much.

posted November 12, 2008 07:33 PM         

Can I see your chart?

Yours too, oneruledbymars. Can I?

this is me:

posted November 14, 2008 03:19 AM         

I liked what you originally wrote, TINK.

I thought it was very well done.

I think I understood you.

posted November 14, 2008 04:12 AM         

For heaven's sake:

When you lie, kiss your baby bye bye bye
And if you're true, the whole wide world will laugh with you
When we see nothing's wrong with you and me
Time will tell, it might even bring
a wedding bell

If you think that I'm a loser
Well you suck, 'cause you know I ain't nothin' but a user
Of your love I can't get enough
Girl it's true, the whole wide world is smiling with you

Push th' little daisies and make 'em come up [4x]

Sometimes I know, and sometimes I'm on the go
But I'm comin' back, so don't give me no flack, yeah
It's all you, and it's me too
And it's your world, you's the girl, you's the girl
Happier than sh!t, things that might go click with me
Click with you, is that love? Is that love, ohhh...

Push th' little daisies and make 'em come up [8x]

Watch the little daisies grow, little daisies grow
Now just push th' little daisies and make 'em come up
Watch them grow, watch them grow
As I push the little daisies and make 'em come up
Make 'em come up, make 'em come up,
Make 'em come up, say

Push th' little daisies and make 'em come up

posted November 14, 2008 04:13 AM         

2.) I have always found that mercy bears richer fruits than strict justice.

3.) If I were to try to read, much less answer, all the attacks made on me,
this shop might as well be closed for any other business.

4.) If you look for the bad in people expecting to find it, you surely will.

5.) If there is anything that a man can do well, I say let him do it. Give him a chance.

6.) The highest art is always the most religious, and the greatest artist is always a devout person.

7.) The dogmas of the quiet past are inadequate to the stormy present.
The occasion is piled high with difficulty, and we must rise with the occasion.
As our case is new, so we must think anew and act anew.

8.) Our defense is in the preservation of the spirit which prizes liberty as a heritage of all men, in all lands, everywhere.
Destroy this spirit and you have planted the seeds of despotism around your own doors.

9.) The probability that we may fail in the struggle ought not to deter us from the support of a cause we believe to be just.

10.) Towering genius disdains a beaten path. It seeks regions hitherto unexplored.

11.) If I were two-faced, would I be wearing this one?

posted November 14, 2008 05:50 AM         

They are supposedly excellent for assisted meditation.

I know a Libra, a lawyer named William, who reads Aurobindo and floats.

I recently had a very pleasant intellectual and spiritual conversation with him.

He's a very generous man who let's a lot of younger people use his tank.

This one young man had been coming twice a week for six months.

He started with a half hour, and now he likes to float for 6 hours at a stretch.

He was extremely relaxed and smiled freely, and told us that, before using the tank, he was practically a different person.

He was so full of anger, and all this business with his father. "Now," he says, "my father loses it on me, and i just sort of smile and go on with my life."

They spoke of being very aware of what attachments arose within them, and how they could easily choose not to react and follow the impulses.

Because they were so relaxed, the habit energy didn't carry them away, and they could see that it was not themselves.

They were relaxed, and yet, things still arose... They understood themselves as the perceiving consciousness.

After a while, the habit energy just sort of began to exhaust itself and grow faint.

My best friend has a tank. William bought it for him! $4,000 It was a time when Daniel really needed the help.

Also, Dan's father had done a good turn for him once and he meant to karmically repay the favor.

It looks as if I shall be taking advantage of this fortuneate contraption, after some lost time of imbecillic procrastination.

Jupiter is poised to enter my first house soon, and conjunct my Moon, so the signs are looking good for me.

I appreciate your concern for my speedy development, I really do, but you neednt worry.

You can be happy for me now, and maybe encourage me sometime to drive the 45 min each way to see my friend and use the tank?

Who knows; pretty soon, I may even be more "skilled" than you, lol.

with mixed feelings,

but mostly love,

posted November 14, 2008 09:57 AM         

Loved the poem HSC.
And congrats on the use of the Tank.
I know you will make those trips faithfully, but
please keep me abreast of the progress!
God speed you there and back each time.

Hmmm......I have never heard of that before.
Gosh I have got so much to learn!

lol

posted November 14, 2008 10:18 AM         

No, I've never used a flotation tank. I'm so self-involved, I suppose you could say I live in a sort of perpetual, homemade self-flotation device.

I've no concern for your development, speedy or otherwise. I wasn't blessed with much, but I do have absolute faith in the process. I trust everything is timed perfectly, and certainly not by me.
"A thousand violins cloy rapidly without percussion"

quote:

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Who knows; pretty soon, I may even be more "skilled" than you, lol.

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