posted September 19, 2005 02:49 PM         

Hello dear.

Its going to take me a little bit to put my thoughts into words... intelligible words, anyhow.

I have some house and business stuff to take care of, but when I'm done with that I will be back for the discussion.

I will say now that I don't really know what to believe. Asking a Libra to choose is a dangerous game indeed.

Fayte,

Please, take part. I'm interested in what you have to say on the subject. I've perused the other thread (didn't really read it thoroughly), but now you have my curiosity peaked and I'm going to have to go read it from start to finish and see what's up.

Really... please share. This subject, and what you seem to know is very interesting to me.

Admittedly, I've never read anything religious. New Agey, spiritual stuff is more my genre. The closest I've come to reading any thing religious are the quotes I come across in other books, usually getting to some point that proves something wrong with the mindset the specific religion (typically Christianity) creates.

Something about religion in general has always turned me off.

posted September 19, 2005 03:59 PM         

I've been perusing a few threads in UC this afternoon. I notice that you often seem very hesitant to share your opinions, particularly those concerning religious or spiritual matters, for fear of offending others. I couldn't help but wonder why.

I'm so sorry you endured such cruelty in the name of "religion". My own religious/spiritual upbringing was, while traditional, also rather liberal and open-minded. I was spared a lot of mindless dogma, thank God, and allowed to come to my own conclusions without fear of eternal damnation.

I've heard stories like yours but it is admittedly still a bit hard for me to understand.

Just wanted to say how sorry I am. That's a heavy cross to bear.

I agree with you about the New Age stuff, btw. A whole lot of well-intentioned nonsense. I guess I'm old school - I believe you have earn it.

Absolutely no nastiness intended, LS. But my feeling is that the transcedent quality of spirituality w/o the grounding force of religion (and I do not mean the church) is like the soul w/o a body. It gets mushy.

posted September 19, 2005 05:02 PM         

Tink, I see what you are saying. Maybe I am equating religion with churcy stuff, and that isn't right.

I feel like religion/spirituality is a personal choice and no one has the right to tell you that your personal belief system is wrong. There are many roads in this life. It is not logical that only ONE road is the correct choice. Because of this belief, religions that suggest THEIR belief is the only right way... they know only true word is backward and outlandish to me.

I view any religion that thinks itself above any other as direct threat to humanity.

Much like the point Ra was making in GU about government getting too big, religions/churches that get too big become corrupt, greedy, and useless.

Cultish type ceremonies aren't necessary to be a spiritual person. Having a label isn't what it takes.

Questioning the existence of a figure named Jesus Christ will not bring eternal damnation upon me.

Reading books on subjects other than one specific religion isn't blasphemy, it is intelligence. It is wise. It is open-minded. But this isn't what the church wants you to believe. Why is that? For the common good?

I do not believe in a supreme being that created us in "his" likeness, and then gets p!ssed and damns us for all eternity because we made mistakes. That to me sounds like a very vain god... to only have us here to make "him" look good.

There are a lot of religions that suppress women. Women bleed monthly as a punishment for eating the apple in the garden of eden. Women aren't even a whole being without a man... we are merely a rib.

Many of this came to be because women were worshiped by the heathen pagans, and the new monotheistic religions had to squelch anything and everything that had to do with their beliefs... including but not limited to taking their religious holidays and rituals and turning them into their own.

There are a great many reasons to be skeptical of mainstream religions.

I think they are dangerous, unnatural, and hinder the process of evolution.

Although, I do have to say that the most fun I've ever had at church was at a Southern Baptist church on Sunday morning. As a little girl, my grandparents lived across the street from the church. The music would draw me in from across the street. The energy bouncing around that room was amazing. I've never experienced anything like it at any other church. It felt so awesome!

posted September 19, 2005 05:35 PM         

Most beautiful words.

posted September 19, 2005 06:36 PM         

ILove, The best I can figure is that the savior-god dating furthest back mentioned in the book would have to be Osiris, who has been said to have lived up to 22,000 years ago.

The Jesus story is similar to the story of Krishna too, he was worshiped in Europe around 800 BCE.

quote:

---

Mithra/Mitra is a very ancient god found both in Persia nd India and predating the Christian savior by hundreds to thousands of years. In fact, the cult of Mithra was shortly before the Christian era "the most popular and widely spread 'Pagan' religion of the times," as Wheless says. Wheless continues:

Mithraism is one of the oldest religions systems on earth, as it dates from the dawn of history before the primitive Iranian race divided into sections which became Persian and Indian... When in 65-63 BC, the conquering armies of Pompey were largely converted by its high precepts, they brought it with them into the Roman Empire. Mithraism spread with great rapidity throughout the Empire, and it was adopted, patronized and protected by a number of Emperors up to the time of Constantine.

Indeed, Mithraism represented the greatest challenge to Christianity, which won out by a hair over its competitor cult.

---

• Mirtha was born of a virgin on December 25th in a cave, and his birth attended by shepherds bearing gifts.

• He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.

• He had 12 companions or disciples.

• Mithra's followers were promised immortality.

• He performed miracles.

• As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.

• He was buried in a tomb after three days rose again.

• His resurrection was celebrated every year.

• He was called "the Good Shepherd" and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.

• He was considered the "Way, the Truth and the Light," and the "Logos," "Redeemer," "Savior" and "Messiah."

• His sacred day was Sunday, the "Lord's Day," hundreds of year before the appearance of Christ.

• Mithra had his principal festival on what was later to become Easter.

• His religion had a eucharist or "Lord's Supper," at which Mithra said, "He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved."

• His annual sacrifice is the passover of the Magi, a symbolical atonement or pledge of moral and physical regeneration.

Furthermore, the Vatican itself is built upon the papacy of Mithra, and the Christian hierarchy is nearly identical to the Mithraic version it replaced. As Walker states:

The cave of the Vatican belonged to Mithra until 376 AD, when a city prefect suppressed the cult of the rival Savior and seized the shrine in the name of Christ, on the very birthday of the pagan god, December 25.

posted September 19, 2005 06:41 PM         

Oy... its hard to say.

It all makes a lot of sense. There are too many coincidences involved for it to be untrue.

It could be that there really is one true being that was all of these characters.

posted September 19, 2005 07:05 PM         

In my mind, the Church and religion are two different entities. While I acknowledge the need for the Church in some situations, I personally have very little use for it at the moment. I also have more than a few beefs with it. But that's another story.
However religion is another matter. Religion to me denotes structure. Discipline too. These are dirty words in our culture, worthy of suspicion. And no wonder ... they're difficult to practice. Most of us are lazy - physically, mentally and spiritually. Fast food nation and all that. I'm not a fan of the if-it-feels-right-do-it philosophy. I'm a fan of the discipline must preceed dominion school. Of course I'm failing miserably, but I'm still a fan.

I agree that the idea that there is only one faith is silly. Personally, I favor Christianity for myself, but I have no issues with other Paths. I'm an adoring admirer of the Buddha, I'm charmed by American Indian beliefs, and I retain a life-long affection for Judaism. (And give me a good Celtic pagan any day of the week!) They're all established Paths, proven by experience and time.

All the beefs you listed, I think of as invalid interpretations made by a Church. I don't think of them as part of the religion itself.

Daf (sorry) has an interesting thread about Mithras around here somewhere. I was initially struck by the similarities in ancient myths too. I read a book similiar to the one you've mentioned during my mid-teen atheistic period (fun! ) To make a loooong story short, I believe the myths prove, rather than negate, each other.

"there are too many coincidences involved for it to be untrue" Exactly.

posted September 19, 2005 07:16 PM         

So... lemme make sure I am understanding you correctly.

Do you believes all of these similar savior-gods are the same person who has come back over the centuries?... i.e. Jesus is/was Osiris. Jesus is/was Krishna?

I agree that there are many concepts claimed by religion (rather, the church... sorry... old habits die hard) that are good and decent. Self discipline being a big one (and I'm failing right along with ya ). Our collective entitlement complex will be the death of us, for sure!

posted September 19, 2005 08:07 PM         

Well ... I'm trying to say that the similarities prove the Truth.

The idea that Jesus was reincarnated Osiris is an interesting one and I'm willing to give it a try. I do believe there are certain rhythms to be found in intiation practices no matter the culture. I think there is a reason for that. I think they have taped into an eternal truth. Also, because they work.

posted September 19, 2005 10:40 PM         

O.K. this is bringing a deja vu back to 1995, I had just re-read Star Sign, and started to read about Isis and Osiris, ya know Linda talked a lot about them in the book.I really felt called to read about them, and even got a book for Christmas that year called "The Passion of Isis and Osiris" by Jean Houstan. I only read the first couple chapters. I then had my first baby and went into the "motherhood" state till this New Orleans disaster. You could say I was awoke from a daze. Of course being a mother is certain to loose you a few brain cells. hehe.I was still reading and searching, I just forgot about those figures. So here we are...

You said Osiris dates back to about 22,000 ago! And with similar stories to Jesus. WOW
It seems mans body probably did originate in that area, and the Pyrimids...very mysterious. I am more than willing to entertain this again, and do it right this time.

I read a book three years ago called "Signs in the Sky" by Adrain Gilbert and to sum is: The Astrological and Archaeological Evidence for the Birth of a New Age. His journey led him to Egypt, and The Pyrimid of Giza, and to Isis and Osiris. He is also an astrologer and has some very interesting thoughts about constellations and
their connections to ancient peoples and writings, he believes the constellations really are these people in most cases. He is very sure(of course who isn't I know) that Orion is the signifier to the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end of the age. He with research, believes that Orion's latest journey thru the sky started at the Summer Solstice c.2400 B.C. - A.D. 2000. He also talked of the end of the Mayan calendar in 2012.

WOW!

fayte.m
The fact that you are indeed a writer is not in the least surprising...it shows in your words and depth of character. Do you have any published works, or are you in the research stages on them all. You may need a good orginizer in your life, when I was in school I wanted to work for James Michner(I hope you all know who he is) and be his assistant. All writers need that, they are too busy researching and creating to keep it all orginized, and if they do, they must be near god-like.

I keep thinking I wish we all lived in the same town, so we could get together and brain-strom over tea, coffee, water, coke...
I don't think any one town could handle more than a couple of us LL'ers. lol

fayte.m
awaiting your input, have you been down this road yet? or are you gonna push us some more, not that I don't need pushing or prodding, Taurus girl that I am.

LibraSparkle... thank you soo much for typing all that out. I hope I get my copy soon!

posted September 19, 2005 10:58 PM         

Do you mean that you want to discuss Jesus/Yeshua as a regular man with a message?

I bet you do have more to add.

What do we have to do to get it out of you?... Tickle you?