posted November 07, 2012 07:48 PM            

I will say I wish all the best to you in finding where you belong in the Universe. I do believe that all of us must find our place where we fit and it will be different from others' paths. But that is what makes the Universe so beautiful - these differences. The most important thing is to respect each other's choices.

posted November 08, 2012 07:48 AM            

quote:

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I am so sad thinking how astrology, who was supposed to be the tool that helps us open our eyes, to become more tolerant and open-minded..it actually makes many of us label people, categorise things and do exactly the thing you tried to avoid in the first place.

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Religion does the same, but it's more acceptable this days... you won't be stoned or burned to death like in the old days (still doable in some regions of this world ) ...as history shows - in the past, many wars were fought in the name of some religion... the natural resources of this planet was part of the reason - wile the other was related to "the enemy having different believes"...

With advance knowledge of astrology - you get to understand that people are more than their Sun sign... so there's no room for judgement in that direction... and should be the same with religion - but i look around and i see a lot of people who call themselves believers - even fanatics to one point... yet "they're stucked" in basic principles - the ones used to teach children... and can't grasp any meaning beyond that - still taking things literally as if the bible is a history book - but if you take it literally... it's more like a fairy tell - the kind that children believe in...

...and yes, it's true - "ignorance is bliss" - indeed I was happier as a child... but for some reason - i don't think lobotomy is the answer... cause that's the only thing that could turn me in a sheep...

quote:

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God made us in his image as companions, so we do not need other means to know the truth because he is the truth, the origin,the source. By knowing God, I think we get to know the whole creation. Scientists, occultist,yogins and whatever gurus or other spiritual teachers may be, never answered one simple question: who made all this universe and how are WE possibile? as long as this question stands up, there is a God.

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...i see God in a different way... the biblical ideas - where we're supposed to be made by his image are part of ancient understanding - where Earth was the center of the Universe - and we're God's (the biblical God) special creation - so special that He asked Lucifer - to bow down and worship His creations... the more you read the bible - the more you notice that "this are human ideas" - and it's not that God created us by his image... but the other way around - those who wrote the Bible - created God by human image, both in terms of traits and behavior... a way of saying - that we're so special that we should worship humanity's Ego - in the form of God - our creator from above... and that idea resonated with humanity... especially in monarchic times - where a Human (king, ruler... "Caesar" for example) was treated like a God... they rather worship a God from the heavens than one of their own...

...and yes - even from ancient times - God was used as answer for everything humans couldn't explain at that time... and with time passing - the more we evolved in knowledge - the smaller "that God became" - this days you have to ignore a lot of things to believe in that God and the things attributed to him in ancient times...

Personally - since this name (God) already has a defined meaning - i won't redefine it... but what i understand by God - is closer to Spinoza's God ... and even more than that...

===

I do believe in Love - even tho it's blind on the surface and the outcome is rarely what we expected to be... "Love is Light" - and sometimes it's attracted even by darkens... a way of showing us that love has no boundaries... it can be a risky path - and sometimes we can drawn in that darkness... and it goes without saying that "love is rarely a simple thing" yet, being something that meaningful - feels like it's worth it... wile ignorance - is simply darkness - the kind that resonates with fear...

============
Kamots

posted November 08, 2012 02:09 PM            

This thread isn’t some kind of “rant for the absolute truth”, but a personal testimony of an (unexpected) discovery throughout my spiritual journey, than changed my life completely. And the fact that I found something very dangerous about occultism and the new age movement made me come back here, to try to warn people about it. My motivation was to attempt to protect people, both old lindaland friends, whom I had nice conversations with, or strangers like you. I hope you too, would attempt to warn me about anything you were convinced could be putting me in peril, especially if it was about my soul. So this is no attempt at judging or imposing anything on anybody. Just sharing something I feel should be shared.

Still, I did and do expect to have my opinions being immediately dismissed or somewhat ridiculed, as you have, when you claimed I got caught into some kind of local energy or “found the local God” (when in fact, I have been agnostic for 25 years, then a complete new age follower for 3 years and professional astrologer for 5, until I unexpectedly “met” Jesus Christ, in Africa, through humanitarian work with people in extreme poverty). I say this without animosity, but I think you should perhaps ask yourself more questions before passing the type of judgement you have passed here. Why? Because I was one of you, then suddenly left.

Likewise, I think you got a little hasty on your judgement of Religion, reducing it to a bunch of human inventions that claim we should “worship humanity’s Ego - in the form of God” and religion being something who creates more lobotomized sheep, or hatred and fanaticism (people burning and stoning each other, or fighting due to different beliefs), than anything else. Try comparing that first with the teachings and person of Jesus Christ. That man, who Christians believe to be God incarnate, lived and died with his arms open, especially for those no one cared for or hated (the poor, the sick, the prostitutes, tax collectors, were all thought to be hated by God by the Jewish culture). Jesus always opposed violence and actually got in the way of a woman being stoned to death (Mary of Magdala).

posted November 08, 2012 07:00 PM            

The Bible is written in a unique EPIC style, full of SYMBOLISM and elements/words that had a special meaning in the jewish culture back then. It takes some learning of the culture itself, in order to extract certain things that are written. To be understood, the bible must be studied in-depth.

You can google the correct interpretations of the Bible just as easily as you can google the Bible/Christianity ignorant or even hating ones.

That cursed fig tree passage was a prophetical parable, meaning it didn't literally happen, but contained a message. The fig tree symbolizes Israel (which ultimately represents God's children - all humanity) and how it didn't produce fruit "because it wasn't in the proper season" (this is said in St Mark's Gospel). Jesus "curses" it (i.e an epic/dramatic way of saying that God allows you to pay the consequences of your own sin, so you can learn from it) and the fig tree withers. Later, on THE SAME DAY it was cursed, the fig tree is abundant with fruit.

This is a prohpecy about all of us (not just for Jews or Jerusalem), about how not bearing the fruits of love makes us wither, but because God never gives up upon us, the time for bearing fruit will eventually come. And when it does, it will be wonderful. As for Jesus harming anyone, the New Testament is full of passages like these:

"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it." John 12:47

For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. John 3:16

Then he forgave his torturers during his agony.

Jesus died for the salvation of ALL, not just the believers. God made himself into a simple man, to come and pay for the consequences of our wrong doings. So that the day you die, He can say, "you should be condemned, but I already went to hell in your place, so here's my forgiveness and my love. Accept it."

Hell is then about willingly reject the gift of forgiveness and salvation, which is given freely. But some people hate God during their life and will continue to hate Him in death. Some others will have created, willingly or not, bonds with the devil, which may complicate things a little.

Why did you select the fig tree passage out of all the numerous passages throughout the Bible, that show that God's mercy is infinite?

posted November 08, 2012 07:31 PM            

It is actually quite normal not to understand that passage. The Bible is not something we can understand with our own intelligence. I had to pray more than once for the Holy Spirit to explain this one to me. I was stuck with this passage for a couple of weeks going grrrrrrr i don't get it, this sounds awful!!

EDIT: and I found this passage from Hosea that supports my view in the Cursed Fig Tree interpretation:

"So I am going to take her into the desert again; there I will win her back with words of love. I will give back to her the vineyards she had and make Trouble Valley a door of hope. She will respond to me there as she did when she was young, when she came from Egypt. Then once again she will call me her husband - she will no longer call me her Baal. I will never let her speak the name of Baal again. At that time I will make a covenant with all the wild animals and birds, so that they will not harm my people. I will also remove all weapons of war from the land, all swords and bows, and will let my people live in peace and safety. Israel, I will make you my wife; I will be true and faithful; I will show you constant love and mercy and make you mine forever. I will keep my promise and make you mine, and you will acknowledge me as Lord. At that time I will answer the prayers of my people Israel. I will make rain fall on the earth, and the earth will produce grain and grapes and olives. I will establish my people in the land and make them prosper. I will show love to those who were called "Unloved," and to those who were called "Not-My-People" I will say, "You are my people," and they will answer, "You are our God." (Hosea 14-23)

posted November 09, 2012 01:06 PM            

quote:

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This thread isn’t some kind of “rant for the absolute truth”, but a personal testimony of an (unexpected) discovery throughout my spiritual journey, than changed my life completely. And the fact that I found something very dangerous about occultism and the new age movement made me come back here, to try to warn people about it. My motivation was to attempt to protect people, both old lindaland friends, whom I had nice conversations with, or strangers like you. I hope you too, would attempt to warn me about anything you were convinced could be putting me in peril, especially if it was about my soul. So this is no attempt at judging or imposing anything on anybody. Just sharing something I feel should be shared.

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I read it, but maybe i tried to cover to much with such a brief answer...yet, it's better that way - because your reply to my last post gives me a better perspective. From your previous post i noticed that you dabbled with Astrology, reiki, theosophy, crystals, chakra healing, multidimensional healing and among other things - you were also a clinical psychologist... from that alone i can tell that you were lost - you walked many paths in search for something and they all made sense to you in some way, but they all work with different energies and different set of beliefs... and later, you found Jesus in a place were the empathy of the world resides, a place where the Christian energy is very strong - a place were Jesus was like a beacon for lost souls such as yourself:

"...until I unexpectedly “met” Jesus Christ, in Africa, through humanitarian work with people in extreme poverty)"

...at that point you were dealing mainly with one source of energy - Christianity and the path of Jesus... which has a strong influence in those parts... your state of mind was weaken from the paths you walked before, your sense of identity was distorted - but in that place Christianity made/makes sense - wile the others... not so much... you can't make much use of astrology in such place.

Maybe Jesus was/is the answer you're looking for... but if you studied Astrology like you said you did - and have enough knowledge of psychology... you wouldn't put it like that - since you'd be aware that "your path" is something that resonates with you and those like you... "wile others are different in their own way and so is their path" - That being said, quotes like this:

"My motivation was to attempt to protect people, both old lindaland friends, whom I had nice conversations with, or strangers like you. I hope you too, would attempt to warn me about anything you were convinced could be putting me in peril, especially if it was about my soul."

...are based on "your fears" and your resolution... and indeed - this might be the right thing for you... since by nature - you seem more sensible, more empathic... and dealing with other people's energies can be uncomfortable (like a poison for your own) - especially the negative ones... Christianity has a large energy pool (made of love or the same thing love is made of) - so, by anchoring your faith in that - it can be what you need to live a better life... but others are more evolved from this point of view - they either have great regeneration capabilities or great perception... which helps them deal with such energies or avoid them... and by saying this - i'm not speaking in my own name - maybe not like you, but i'm also more sensible in my own way... there are times when i can't deal with "certain natal charts" - and i don't want to work with the energy of those who committed suicide... both Good and Evil - is present in any path we take... it's rarely just one.

Main purpose behind Astrology is helping people, helping those who are lost and in need of an answer... which they might know, but being such a hard time for them at a certain moment - they can't cope with their sense of identity - both with themselves and the world around... and that's were Astrology can clear some things... if the astrologist is capable at what his doing - since this is also a form of counseling...

...back to your story - personally, i can see Jesus as a symbol for love, love for humanity and a peaceful world... wile Satan as a symbol for the opposite... and since this is a positive resolution for you... maybe i shouldn't share my point of view on this subject - how may i put it... i wouldn't recommend people to use Marijuana... yet there are some with a terminal illness and for them it can be very useful, it helps them bare their fate... i tend to give extreme examples (and this can be one of them), but maybe it's easier to understand that way.

posted November 09, 2012 03:31 PM            

I am saddened that you insist in taking hasty conclusions and passing judgement upon me and my journey, rather than asking yourself (or me) the questions that might lead you to a better understanding of the situation. It is always better to have more questions in our minds, than answers. Especially when dealing with strangers or when the issues at stake are complex. Is there anything more complex than a spiritual journey?

There could be so many things I could reply to what you have said and concluded about me, but I fear it would not change your viewpoint, which you have firmly based around energy influences.

But just so you know, Senegal, the african country where I worked, is a country where 94% of the population is muslim. And the specific place I was in, was a no man's land, with hunger, poverty and sickness. As for the Christ, He is not an energy anyway, as God is beyond space, time and matter (solid or ethereal).

I agree with you with one thing however: I was lost. But aren't we all lost and aren't we all seekers?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WZ04ou612U

posted November 09, 2012 07:00 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
"There shall be signs in the sun, the moon, and the stars." - Jesus Christ, Luke 21:25

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Randall, there was a time I used to justify compatibility between astrology and the Bible, using passages such as that one. But the verse you quoted has to be put in its proper context, in order to be understood.

In chapter 21 of Luke's Gospel, Jesus is prophetizing the destruction of the temple and of Jerusalem ("temple" and "holy city" ultimately extending to our hearts, where God wants to inhabit, but is rejected by mankind). He speaks of the signs that precede his Second Coming and gives the parable of the fig tree. All this is done in a completely metaphorical language, rich in symbolism and deeper meanings.

It is by no means a passage that says "ok crew, change of plans, forget everything I told you about putting your full faith on me, instead of putting your faith on your own empowering human instruments. From now on, whenever you want to discover who you are, find guidance/reassurance in your life, gain understanding of your past or what lies ahead of you, just forget about me and use astrology instead. Like for example, when you want to know if you're compatible with someone, place your faith in synastry and composites."

Trust in the LORD with all your heart; do not depend on your own understanding. (Proverbs 3:5)

However, the following references to astrology seem clearer and less symbolic to me:

“All the counsel you have received has only worn you out! Let your astrologers come forward, those stargazers who make predictions month by month, let them save you from what is coming upon you. Surely they are like stubble; the fire will burn them up. They cannot even save themselves from the power of the flame. These are not coals for warmth; this is not a fire to sit by.” (Isaiah 47:13,14)

"When you enter the land the Lord your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. Let no one be found among you who sacrifices their son or daughter in the fire, who practices DIVINATION or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord; because of these same detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you. You must be blameless before the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 18:9-13)

“At that time, declares the Lord, the bones of the kings and officials of Judah, the bones of the priests and prophets, and the bones of the people of Jerusalem will be removed from their graves. They will be exposed to the sun and the moon and all the stars of the heavens, which they have loved and served and which they have followed and consulted and worshiped. They will not be gathered up or buried, but will be like dung lying on the ground. Wherever I banish them, all the survivors of this evil nation will prefer death to life, declares the Lord Almighty.” (Jeremiah 8:1-3)

“But God turned away and gave them over to the worship of the heavenly bodies.” (Acts 7:42)

This is what the LORD says: "Do not act like the other nations, who try to read their future in the stars. Do not be afraid of their predictions, even though other nations are terrified by them. (Jeremiah 10:2)

“And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon, and the stars – all the heavenly array – do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the Lord your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.”
(Deuteronomy 4:19)

“I will stretch out my hand against Judah and against all who live in Jerusalem. I will cut off from this place every remnant of Baal, the names of the pagan and the idolatrous priests – those who bow down on the housetops to worship the STARRY HOSTS, those who turn back from following the Lord and NEITHER SEEK the Lord NOR INQUIRE OF HIM.” (Zephaniah 1:4-6)

The above Scriptures clearly reject the use of astrology and other forms of divination by God’s people. God not only cleanses his kingdom of all divinatory influence, he outright condemns those who practice its art.

"See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the universe, and not according to Christ." (Colossians 2:8)

“Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

posted November 09, 2012 07:40 PM            

BIBLE, ASTROLOGY AND THE THIRD TESTAMENT

BY TIM STEPHENS
(The early pages below were drawn from my Astral column preambles.)

ASTROLOGY AND THE BIBLE:

Well, I’ve finally read the Bible from start to finish. The word “astrology” is not used once, but “astrologer/s” occurs ten times – once in Isaiah, and nine times in Daniel. The prophet Isaiah, speaking as God, uses the word while he is taunting the kingdom of Babylon (Isa 47:13). God does not actually condemn astrologers in this passage, though he comes close. While telling how Babylon, one of Israel’s enemies, will one day be defeated and destroyed, he says all their magicians and astrologers will not be able to save them. Here’s the text (all quotes are from the New International Version of the Bible):

“Let your astrologers come forward, those stargazers who make predictions month by month, let them save you from what is coming upon you. Surely they are like stubble; the fire will burn them up. They cannot even save themselves from the power of the flame….each of them goes on in his error; there is not one that can save you.”

This passage is most often quoted by Christians and Catholics who want to prove that astrology comes from the devil. However, read Isaiah’s passage again, this time substituting “warriors” for “astrologers.” Or “King” for astrologers. Or “wise men” or “fighting men” or “shields” or “swords” or “armies.” Let’s use a military theme:

“Let your heroes come forward, those warriors who proclaim so often how brave they are, let them save you from what is coming upon you. Surely they are like stubble; the fire will burn them up. They cannot even save themselves from the power of the flame….each of them fights in vain; there is not one that can save you.”

Now it sounds like a passage we see many times in the Old Testament, when a prophet taunts an army or foreign nation. (Although more frequently such predictions of defeat are spoken not directly to the enemy but to the Israelites, to assure them that they will vanquish their enemies. God/prophets also use the same taunt or warning against Israel, when the tables are reversed. The Israeli army is defeated about as many times as it wins.) “Let your warriors and your shining shields try to help you; let your city walls try to stand; when I (God) use my might against you, you cannot win” goes the typical warning/taunt. In the Old Testament, shields, warriors, city walls, swords, etc., are never bad in themselves. Both the good guys and the bad guys possess them.

Isaiah’s taunt regarding the astrologers is similar: in the strictest sense it is not a criticism of astrology per se, but of those who use it. (Just as swords or shields are not blamed or credited for defeat or victory, but the warriors who wield them.) Isaiah’s words, in the barest interpretation, are a warning that nothing, including their astrologers, can save the Babylonians from destruction. There is a good reason astrology is never directly criticised in the Bible – I’ll show you soon.

Last week we saw the first mention of the word “astrologers” in the Bible. The word is written nine more times by Daniel, an Israeli/Jewish prophet who lived in Babylon, astrology’s birthplace. In Daniel astrologers are mentioned in three incidents. The main one involves the Babylonian King, Nebuchadnezzar. He has a dream one night. He brings all his “magicians, enchanters, sorcerers and astrologers” to his court and says to them: Not only do I want you to interpret my dream (which was not unusual) but I also want you to tell me what dream I had – describe it without a word of it from me. The astrologers, quite honestly, say they can’t tell him what dream he had. They protest that they are only men, not gods. So King Neb issues a decree that they – and all the “wise men” (all astrologers, magicians, enchanters and sorcerers) be torn to pieces. Daniel, who “could understand visions and dreams of all kinds” (Da 1:17) is included in the death decree.

But Daniel prays to God, and God reveals to him Nebuchadnezzar’s dream, which he then recounts and interprets for Neb. Neb rewards Daniel, spares his colleagues, and appoints him chief over all the astrologers, enchanters, magicians, and sorcerers (twice called diviners instead of sorcerers). Throughout the Bible, God condemns enchanters, magicians, sorcerers and diviners (he calls them “detestable”) yet he never condemns astrologers. He obviously loves and protects Daniel, so Daniel might have been an astrologer, or a new species – an independent wise man. Neither is stated.
Two more incidents occur. In the first, the astrologers, being jealous of Daniel’s three friends and their power, tell King Neb that these three are not bowing down to worship his pagan god. So he throws them into a fire, but they don’t burn. This is not the astrologers’ finest hour. They’re envious, malicious snitches. In the third instance, Neb’s son, now King, saw an angel’s hand writing on a wall. Again all the wise men were summoned, including astrologers, but only Daniel communicated with God, and only he could interpret it.

So the Old Testament gives four pictures of astrologers: 1) in Isaiah, they can’t save people from destruction; in Daniel, 2) they can’t enter another’s subconscious; 3) are honest; 4) are envious snitches.

Throughout the Old Testament, magic, sorcery, fortune telling, divination, being a medium, “spiritist” etc., are condemned by God as being more heinous sins than murder or adultery. (David, who murdered and committed adultery, is loved by God, yet this same God repeatedly states, with no grey area whatsoever, and with not one expression or admission that a mitigating circumstance can exist, that all sorcerers, diviners, mediums, etc., must be put to death (by stoning). This is first expressed in Exodus 22:18: “Do not allow a sorceress to live.” Yet as early as Moses’ time, Jewish priests practiced divination with impunity. The prophets, by the Book of Samuel, have become akin to fortune tellers who accept payment to answer such questions as “Where are the donkeys I lost?” Yet still they are loved by God.

The thrust seems to be: psychically gifted people who submit to God and speak in his service, are loved. Those who practise the same mantic arts, but not in God’s service (or worse, for other gods) are condemned to death. Astrologers seem to sidestep this entire scenario. They are never directly condemned nor praised, perhaps because they claim no connection to divinity. If anything, they are mocked and treated with disdain by Old Testament authors. Yet, astoundingly, two of the Bible’s most respected books (Ezekiel and Revelation) repeatedly show that there is nothing closer to God than astrology, and the New Testament’s first book (Matthew) holds astrologers to be more accurate in vision than the prophets. But that’s for next week.

To paraphrase Charles Spurgeon: a lie will go round the world before the truth gets its pants on. In the case of modern Christianity and astrology, the latest version of “truth” has taken about 100-150 years to get its pants on. That’s when our modern Protestant sects, “discovering” that astrology implied fatalism and a lack of free will, arose to renew an old fight against astrology. Many of these Protestants would be surprised to learn that astrology was studied right into the 18th century by seminary students.

They might also be surprised, if they visit Europe, to find hundreds of cathedrals covered in astrological carvings, Jesus shown with zodiacal glyphs, etc. The truth is, astrology and Christianity have undergone alternating phases of marriage and divorce for 2,000 years. At present, modern Christians equate astrology with Satan. They might as well believe the Bible was written by Satan, for it is, both on and under the surface, a prime document of astrology.

The Bible’s two most distinct, stunning and extensive descriptions of God, in Ezekiel and Revelation, contain unmistakable images and symbols of astrology. These descriptions place astrology closer to God than any other thing in the universe.

Ezekiel says he first saw God “in the land of the Babylonians.” (Babylon was the birthplace and center of astrology.) He describes God as “an immense cloud with flashing lightning and surrounded by brilliant light” (Eze 1:4). In “the center” of this cloud were “four living creatures.” Each, though shaped like a man in body, had “four faces and four wings…each had the face of a man…of a lion...an ox…also…an eagle.” They “sped back and forth like flashes of lightning.” Each creature was connected to a wheel, but each wheel “appeared to be made like a wheel intersecting a wheel.” These could not be the wheels used for carts or chariots, because they intersected each other, and would cripple any such mobile device. Again, though each creature’s wheel(s) moved with it, “the wheels did not turn about” – in other words, they did not turn or spin like a cart’s wheels. These wheels could only be the two wheels or discs used by astrologers: one for the 12 zodiacal signs, the other for the 12 houses. (The discs/wheels of astrology do intersect each other.) Ezekiel goes to great pains to describe these wheels, and to affirm that they are inextricably linked to the creatures. He spends 2 entire paragraphs (7 verses) discussing them in Chapter 1, and then repeats the description in Chapter 10 (four times) and again in Eze 11:22. He says they are filled with the “spirit of the living creatures.” The creatures themselves are the four fixed elements of astrology: Taurus the ox (earth), Leo the lion (fire), Scorpio the eagle (water) and Aquarius the Man (air). Upon these four creatures the throne of God sits. Each wheel, and each creature “including their backs, their hands and their wings” are “completely full of eyes” (Eze 10:12) – indicating the prime purpose of astrology (to perceive) – and God’s omniscience. The wheels are “full of eyes all around.” (Eze 1:18)

Over 600 years later, in Revelation, the four creatures are not men with animal heads (four heads/faces per man). Instead, each is a different creature: one an ox, another a lion, an eagle, and a man (again, representing the four fixed elements/signs of astrology).* Again, they are covered in eyes “even under their wings.” As God sits upon his throne, the closest things to him are “seven lamps” (the sun, moon and 5 planets – only 5 were known at that time) and the four creatures. Next, in concentric circles, are “24 thrones” occupied by “elders.” The 24 thrones are probably the 12 signs and 12 houses of astrology. (In astrology, the signs and houses are called “thrones.”) When the four creatures of astrology speak, the 24 elders fall down and worship God. Beyond the elders “ten thousand times ten thousand” angels join the chorus (Rev 5:11). The creatures of astrology and the 24 “environments” of astrology – the 24 thrones/elders – are closer to God than the angels. When Christ appears in Revelation (5:5) he too, stands “in the center of the throne, encircled by the four living creatures and the 24 elders.

*I do not know why these four creatures were chosen rather than the other zodiacal creatures, but it was probably expedience. First, the term “living creature” is used to distinguish these from the fetish objects or idols of pagan religions (the carved images of cows, etc.). Throughout the Bible, the term “living God” is used to distinguish the Israeli’s monotheistic God from the pagan panoply of gods. The four creatures are all “living” beings, which protects them from a charge of paganism. They represent the fixed signs of astrology: Taurus, Leo, Scorpio and Aquarius. This is the only group that represents all four elements (earth, fire, water and air) yet contains all living creatures. There are two other groups of signs, cardinal and mutable. The cardinal signs are Aries (the ram) Cancer (crab) Libra (balance or scales) and Capricorn (goat). This does not fit Ezekiel’s needs, for Libra’s representative is not “living.” The last set of four “elemental” signs are mutable: Gemini (two humans – twins) Virgo (a stalk of wheat, sometimes with a woman harvester) Sagittarius (centaur, half man half horse) and Pisces (two fish swimming in opposite directions). This set is just too complex for Ezekiel’s purpose: a person hearing of his vision might say, “what do the twins mean? Why fish swimming in opposite directions?” In Biblical times, fish were probably not considered sentient. And using a mythological creature, the centaur, might have been too close to paganism for Ezekiel. (Though the centaur might have come later, from Greece.) Wheat, being plant matter, would not have been considered capable of intelligence or animation. So the fixed signs, all mammals, became the perfect choice. BTW, it is possible that animals came to represent the 12 zodiacal signs simply because they were easier to remember than a numeric or abstract designation. E.g., “ox,” is easier to remember, or more tactile, more satisfying to the mind, than “Sign 2.” In addition, the animalization allows us to begin assigning a character to each sign. Oxen are slow but powerful, calm and steeped in nature – as are people born under Taurus, the sign represented by the ox. Rams are pushy and assertive, as are Aries. Twins “double think” as do Gemini natives. Etc.

An alternate conclusion exists: if the four creatures were part of Judean belief before astrology adopted them, it would indicate that not astrology, but only the four creatures were next to God, and that the astrologers, having read Ezekiel, had appropriated the four creatures to make their “science” acceptable to Israelites. However, many circumstances argue against this.

For one, the nations using astrology were far more powerful than Israel (at least from Ezekiel onward) and had no need to seek Israel’s approval.
Two, astrology, to which the creatures were integral, was (depending on the claimant) from 2,400 to 1,000 years old before the Bible (via Ezekiel) first “discovered” or mentioned the creatures. Some claim Sargon of Agade used astrologer priests to make predictions in 2872 B.C. Others state astronomical observatories were built in Ur and Babylon as early as 2079 to 1960 B.C. All these predate the Bible itself, though not the Bible’s early mythology. (The observatories – ziggurats – of Ur or Babylon – might have been the inspiration for the “Tower of Babel.”)

Three, although I have not been able to locate any “point of entry” of the creatures – or of animalistic representation – into astrological lore, it was probably pre-Biblical. According to one source, the planets were called gods as early as 4000 B.C. by the Sumerians. By 2700 B.C. [probably earlier] the Egyptian goddess Isis (among others) was depicted as part human and part cow. (2,200 years later, Ezekiel’s living creatures are, like Isis, human in body, with partly animal heads.) A workable, or semi-modern astrology begins to appear about 1300 B.C. However, the modern zodiac of 12 signs seems not to have developed until right around Ezekiel’s time, 600 to 300 B.C. (Ezekiel 500 B.C.) – though the points of Aries, Cancer, Libra and Capricorn date back to about 1200 B.C.

Four, when Ezekiel did envision the four creatures, they were inseparably connected to an astrological tool (the wheels). There was no evidence of them being separate concepts, “glued together” by Ezekiel – or of having any origin other than astrology.

Five, Ezekiel lived, practiced and had his vision of God in Babylon – his world’s centre of astrology – and he was probably influenced by its tenets.
Six and finally, tying God to creatures – beasts – was a pagan practice, one adamantly and repeatedly rejected by the Old Testament. So to connect beasts to God here, by a major prophet, was a daring and unprecedented action – one that, if not consciously, then subconsciously, came from the astrological environment surrounding Ezekiel. (The king employed a staff of astrologers, the libraries were filled with astrological scrolls, etc.)
At the end of this vision Ezekiel is told to prophesy “woes and laments” to the Israeli people, then he is lifted up by the “Spirit” with the accompaniment of the living creatures and the wheels and transported to the Israeli exiles. (Eze 3:12-15) Other than revealing his vision(s), Ezekiel does not transmit any overtly astrological learning or instructions to the Israelites.

However, in Ezekiel 10 and 11, the four creatures with their wheels are centrally involved in cleansing God’s sanctuary by killing the idolaters who have invaded God’s temple in Jerusalem (and most of the denizens of the entire city); then they rise, “with the wheels beside them, spread their wings” and they and “the glory of God…above them” fly off to hover/exist/stand “above the mountain east of” Jerusalem. A curious thing here: the prime sinners (who “spread all over the walls all kinds of crawling things and detestable animals”) are 25 elders, reminiscent of the 24 holy elders who surround God’s throne in heaven 600 years later in Revelation. Here, though, there are 25 – possibly a perversion, or an “unholy addition” to the “24” of astrology (12 signs, 12 houses). This becomes significant when we look at Satan’s perverse or mis-formed “replica” of astrology in Revelation (discussed later). Whenever the “grand numbers” representing astrology – 3, 4, 7, 12 and 24 – are “altered,” it tends to signify decadence, sin, or Satan. In Revelation, Satan is prominently accompanied by 6 (666) and 10 – but more of this later. (It’s also interesting to note that Jacob had 13 children, not 12. The 12 male children become the 12 tribes of Israel. But one daughter, Dinah, was basically ignored, then raped, avenged, and ignored again. The female element is definitely rejected. The mentions of pagan worship often include immoral women, adulteresses, prostitutes, females who pleasure themselves with pagan idols (as dildos) (Eze 16:17) – and bad cities such as Babylon are seen as either prostitutes or the “Mother[s] of Prostitutes.” (Rev. 17:5). Because Dinah was female, she was replaced by a final addition in Canaan, the twelfth son, Benjamin. But if we add the “female element” or the “missing daughter” to the 24 elders (12 signs, 12 houses) we get 25, the “perverse worshippers.” (More of Dinah later – I believe she might become a progenitor of the Third Testament, to arrive after the Second Coming.)

As seen in Ezekiel and Revelation, the elements of astrology: the 7 heavenly bodies, 4 creatures, and 12 houses and 12 signs, are more integral to God and his vision (note the creatures are covered with eyes – God’s omniscience) than the angels.

Only Christ who is God (and who seems to have been born under the aegis of astrology) can be closer. When Christ does appear a bit later, he too is “encircled by the four living creatures and the elders. He had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God.” (Rev 5:6) (Where he appears earlier, in Rev 1, he is surrounded by seven golden lampstands, and “in his right hand he held seven stars.”)

These four creatures might be the four cherubim carved on the tabernacle of God built by King David 500 years before. Hence the same four cherubim, the living creatures, used to destroy the (same locational) tabernacle after it is defiled by the immoral, idol-worshipping 25 elders of Ezekiel 8 to 11.
Throughout the Bible, God condemns those who bow down and worship “the sun, moon and stars” – because this is tantamount to worshipping God’s throne, or God’s mechanisms, his “things,” rather than him. It’s like saying, as divorcing women do – I love your house, but not you. Even worse, it usually entailed the worship of competing gods. In Biblical times, peoples other than the Israelites considered the heavenly bodies to be gods. The planets’ modern names are all (Roman) gods: Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn. (We’ve carried on this tradition by naming the three “modern” planets discovered by telescope, Uranus, Neptune and Pluto, also pagan gods.) Before the Romans, the Greeks labelled the planets Apollo, Athena/Aphrodite, Ares, Zeus, etc. To the Sumerians, a pre-Biblical people, the sun was the god Utu, the moon was goddess Nanna, Venus was Inanna. Ezekiel and others (especially Revelations) get around this problem of planet-naming and planet-worship (including sun and moon worship) by making the seven bodies “the living spirits of God.” (Rev. 4:5) thus preserving God’s singularity and their monotheism.

Yet there is a remarkable underground continuity of reference to, and reverence for, the sun, moon and five known planets throughout the Bible, a tendency to refer to them without naming them, but using their total or identifying number, seven. For example, we’ve already seen that the word “astrologer/s” occurs only ten times in the Bible.* (*The word is Greek, so Isaiah in 700 B.C. must have used an equivalent.) The phrase “sun, moon and the stars” occurs only 18 times in the entire Bible. (The 18 repetitions include non-astrological variations, e.g., Solomon’s “fair as the moon, bright as the sun, majestic as the stars.” (SS 6:9-11) But “seven,” the substitute term for the seven heavenly bodies, occurs 404 times. Otherwise, astrology and astrologers are remarkable for the sheer absence of overt references in this 2,000 + page history.

It might well be that the Bible substitutes numbers for concepts. (I am not speaking of numerology here.)

These numbers fill the Bible: 1, 2, 3, and 7. One, two and three are not surprising: these are the numbers of daily life. (Also, there is “one” God, with “three” aspects.) But seven? We don’t often say, “Give me seven pounds of that.” But seven is the number of the (then known) planets plus sun and moon. Among the compound numbers, i.e., ten and above, these stand out, in order of declining frequency: 100, 1,000, 20, 10, 12, 30. Notice the only high frequency “specific” or non-zero number is 12. (For example, 12 is used 146 times, but 11 is used only 23 times, 13 is used only 13 times, 14 only 27 times, etc. Many specific numbers are never used: 23, 39, etc.) Twelve is the number of the zodiacal signs, and of astrological houses. Jacob, the father of Israel, had 4 wives, who produced 12 sons – who became the progenitors of the 12 tribes of Israel. As Thomas Mann has pointed out, after their escape from Egypt, during the 40 years of wandering, the 12 tribes encamped in the form of a circle, with God’s altar in the centre: the design of the astrological wheel. Some credit the use of 12 – 12 months of the year, 12 tribes, 12 disciples, etc., as a result of Jupiter, the planet of good fortune, having an orbit of 12 years. Early Chinese astrologers, for instance, divided the sky into 12 segments because Jupiter, the “Yearly Planet,” took 12 years to complete one circle of the sky. (Thanks to Igor Davidov for this insight.)

If one looks carefully, the numbers of astrology are used everywhere throughout this great book, and not haphazardly. The number 7 often occurs in conjunction with destiny implications. For example, in Genesis 41:1-7, the Pharaoh’s dream contains 7 fat cows, and 7 gaunt cows, 7 healthy grain stalks, and 7 thin, scorched grain stalks. Joseph interprets the dream to mean that 7 years of abundant crops will be followed by 7 years of famine. This immediately occurs.

The Hebrew for oath or promise, “shibah” (“????” – CHECK THIS) also means “seven” (NIV Bible, note on Gen 26.) (In Genesis 26:33 a well – the symbol of life and of origin, water in the womb of the earth – is named “Shibah.” ) Here, the language implies that the “ultimate seven” – the sun, moon and 5 known planets – were involved in God’s oath or promise to mankind.

posted November 10, 2012 11:54 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
Well, I’ve finally read the Bible from start to finish. The word “astrology” is not used once, but “astrologer/s” occurs ten times – once in Isaiah, and nine times in Daniel.

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Wrong. Astrologers are referred in the passages I quoted in my last post (did you bother reading them?) as “consultors/worshipers of the Sun, Moon and all stars in the heavens” (Jeremiah 8:1-3) and (Deuteronomy 4:19), “worshipers of heavenly bodies” (Acts 7:42) or “worshippers of heavenly hosts” (Zephaniah 1:4-6). Claiming otherwise is just like saying that a “spider” and an “arachnid that makes webs and eat flies” are not the same thing.

quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
The word (astrologer) is written nine more times by Daniel, an Israeli/Jewish prophet who lived in Babylon, astrology’s birthplace.

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Babylon = Astrology’s birthplace. Exactly. And those who have studied the Jewish Biblical culture, unlike Tim Stephens (who read the Bible according to his own culture and interpretation tools), will know that Babylon was a city that was used in the Old Testament to represent the unholy city of devil, just like Jerusalem was used to represent the holy city of God. That is why at the times God’s people completely forgot about God and dedicated themselves to idolatry, God eventually allowed Israel to be invaded and conquered by Babylon, or God’s people to be deported there (as was Daniel’s case). This ultimately tells us the message that sometimes, when you forsake God, He will allow you to suffer the consequences of your own mistakes. Meaning we often go to Babylon and later get rescued (either when we repent and change behaviour, or call upon God to help us out of our mess).

quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
Throughout the Bible, God condemns enchanters, magicians, sorcerers and diviners (he calls them “detestable”) yet he never condemns astrologers. He obviously loves and protects Daniel, so Daniel might have been an astrologer, or a new species – an independent wise man. Neither is stated.

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Double Wrong.

1) Tim Stephens nicely identified that magicians, sorcerers and diviners are “detestable” (Well, God actually detests no one, but if you are in communion with the instruments of the devil and put your faith in them, then you cannot be in communion with God at the same time - and this is the original definition of the word “sin”, which originally meant «to miss the target», the target being the establishment of a personal RELATIONSHIP with God and maintaining COMMUNION with His love).

But where Tim Stephens failed to comprehend, due to lack of knowledge of the jewish culture, is that “divination” includes astrology. By definition, everything that involved prediction of the future (manticism) and reading of present events (clairvoyance) is divination. And the only form of divination which God didn’t “condemn” were those done through REVELATION from Him (like Daniel's dream interpretations). This contrasts with both revelation by dark spiritual forces and with predictive knowledge of occult content, acquired by human instrument, i.e astrology, tarot, etc.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/beliefs/Issues/Magic_and_the_S upernatural/Practices_and_Beliefs/Divination.shtml

“The astrologer has authority as one who deals understandingly and effectively with the occult… Astrology is occult knowledge.”
Dane Rudhyar – astrologer and theosophist

“The astrologic art is held to be the key to all occult sciences”
Seraphael (Walter Olt) - astrologer and theosophist

So wherever in the Bible you read “divination”, astrology and all instruments of the occult are already included (and Lindaland demonstrates that wherever there is astrology, all other occultic practices can be found and encouraged). And when "astrologers" are explicitly referred in the Bible, it is just an extra. It’s like saying “junk food are unhealthy for you” and “junk food and McDonalds/Burger King is unhealthy for you”.

2) What Daniel was is stated right in the 1st chapter. Daniel was one of the four jews from the tribe of Judah that were forced to go Babylon to serve the Babylonian king, after Babylon besieged Judah. The whole book of Daniel is a book that speaks of the FAITHFULLNESS of members of God’s people, in times of adversity. This book wants to tell us that if we put our trust in God and in God only, then His love will see you through any adversity. So Daniel was different from the other “wise men” in Babylon (diviners, sorcerers, astrologers, etc.) in that his “divination” skill was not a human art/instrument that attempts to find spiritual guidance, but instead, the gift of REVELATION (God revealed to him the meaning of dreams, because Daniel sought ALL HIS ANSWERS from the Lord and put ALL HIS TRUST in Him). And through much adversity, he survives and is honoured, while all other “wise men” either get killed by the king or just fail miserably.

CONCLUDING

I am going to stop my analysis of Tim Stephens’ article, because it would take me too many pages to comment on the numerous mistakes he made. Most of them come from the fact that he is unaware of the cultural and historical aspects/words/terms of the jewsish culture and bases his analysis on interpretations from his own mindset and culture.

Also, it is very common for occultists and new agers to interpret Jesus and the Bible in a new age/occultic way, the end product being a new age Jesus and a new age Bible, i.e a Word of God turned upside down.

posted November 10, 2012 01:15 PM            

Yeah, you should have known that you would have no success in that attempt. You can't seriously think that if you come here and lambaste Astrology, that you will cause some revelations in people and save them from what you think is calamitous. This is an Astrology site, so people aren't going to be swayed by your arguments against what they have lived and know to be Truth to them. We do have several Christians here, but they practice Astrology and are comfortable with it complementing their religion. Epic fail.

posted November 10, 2012 01:18 PM            

Apparently, YOU did not bother to read what I posted. It specifically said "astrology," not astrologers. The word astrology is not in the Bible. But no worries. I don't get bent out of shape over narrow views.

posted November 10, 2012 02:23 PM            

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My friend, you do not need to explain to me the purpose of astrology, as I was a professional astrologer for long enough. I know about its good intentions (as were mine back then), but intentions aren't everything. At the end of the day, this and other tools come and occupy the place where a relationship with God could have ocurred instead.

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The term "professional" says very little to me when used by someone who talks about himself (self-praise if you will). And there you go... i knew it would come up to this - which is why i said the things i said... but you don't listen - you just expect to be listened... the way you chose to live your life, your calling or whatever you want to call it - is yours and others alike, but you put it in such way as if you expect us to walk the same road - which to you is the only road... if you put things like that - i'd say you know very little about Astrology - since, one of the main things you learn from it is that...

"...each and everyone of us has their own road to follow..." - it can intersect with other roads, could even be similar as yours for some - but some roads are very different - some people simply can't follow the path you've chosen... it would affect their own spiritual evolution... and i'd like to repeat this "Spiritual Evolution" - another thing you learn from Astrology... which deep inside i already knew - this just came as a confirmation...

- the way you put it - yes, "that's a spiritual journey" - just one of many... but as a Christian - you'd stick with the idea that - this is the one and only spiritual path...or at least that's what every Christian is suppose to accept - they don't believe in past lives and reincarnation (it's not allowed)... they go with that primitive conception where one life should be enough, the one and only which decides your faith after death - Hell or Heaven (at Lord's side)...

...and I meant what i said: "I would need a lobotomy to live this life like a sheep..." - and in different times, you might stoned me to death - or if things were different lobotomized me to follow your path... and you'd call that "the will of God" as other Christians did before you, before your time... the Legacy of Jesus Christ... a solid proof of what it means to live in a world govern by this religion... and the Bible's full of similar testimonials "meant to spread fear" - fear of a God - who behaves like a human... a psychopath if you will, only they could play such games with the lives of people... if we're to believe that what's said in the bible is true and it's referring to God.

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"What Daniel was is stated right in the 1st chapter. Daniel was one of the four jews from the tribe of Judah that were forced to go Babylon to serve the Babylonian king, after Babylon besieged Judah."

...the "King of Babylon" ...did you know that Satan/Lucifer - the so called "fallen angel" - was apparently a dead king of Babylon? - which reminds me of a song called "heaven is a place on Earth" ...and back in those times Babylon was such place "for humans" - the greatest city of it's time...

"1) Tim Stephens was smart enough..."

...from all the deadly sins - Pride is suppose to be on top of the list... i thought you consider yourself a disciple of Jesus Christ - yet "humility" stands among his main teachings...

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I am saddened that you insist in taking hasty conclusions and passing judgement upon me and my journey, rather than asking yourself (or me) the questions that might lead you to a better understanding of the situation. It is always better to have more questions in our minds, than answers. Especially when dealing with strangers or when the issues at stake are complex. Is there anything more complex than a spiritual journey?

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Your pride/ego would be in your way - you can't even be honest whit yourself - so why would you be with me, with a stranger? You kinda asked for it - i rarely pass judgement, don't find it as my right to do so... but when somebody slanders other peoples way - as if theirs is the only way, the absolute truth... well, i find it as the right time to say something...

posted November 10, 2012 02:26 PM            

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted November 10, 2012 03:05 PM            

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Originally posted by Randall:
You said: "And I came here to try to warn you about it, with little success, apparently."

Yeah, you should have known that you would have no success in that attempt. You can't seriously think that if you come here and lambaste Astrology, that you will cause some revelations in people and save them from what you think is calamitous. This is an Astrology site, so people aren't going to be swayed by your arguments against what they have lived and know to be Truth to them. We do have several Christians here, but they practice Astrology and are comfortable with it complementing their religion. Epic fail.

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quote:

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Apparently, YOU did not bother to read what I posted. It specifically said "astrology," not astrologers. The word astrology is not in the Bible. But no worries. I don't get bent out of shape over narrow views.

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I was one of you for a long time, posted here and eventually came back to share the experiences that made me leave all this. I did think it would be dificult to get people to think twice about occultism and investigate the issue, based on the personal testimony of a stranger, because as one person here said "people have to experience certain things personally, before they can believe in them. Testimonies from strangers won't do much."
But still I felt (and still feel) that all of you were worth the shot and worth going through any mockery or ofensive comment, much worse than the ones you ended up making above, Randall.

I do however, feel sad and worried about the traps you are all caught in. But hopeful that someday, the seed that I planted here will grow into something good for one of you.

I wish you the best Randall.

quote:

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Originally posted by 7th Guardian ...from all the deadly sins - Pride is suppose to be on top of the list... i thought you consider yourself a disciple of Jesus Christ - yet "humility" stands among his main teachings...

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posted November 10, 2012 03:13 PM            

Using it to define "who" someone is while omitting the Spiritual make up is the (so called) sin imho.

posted November 10, 2012 03:26 PM            

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
Wow
There is a lot of info here. I am a Born Again Christian and Messianic Jew and an astrologer.
I will study what you all wrote!

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Thank you for considering it, Ami Anne!

You may find other testimonies out there, other than the ones I linked to in one of my posts on the first page.

quote:

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Originally posted by juniperb:
I sincerely don`t believe, astrology used as a tool is a Biblical sin. It is using it as a God to drive your life and the belief that it is the essence or core of you.

Using it to define "who" someone is while omitting the Spiritual make up is the (so called) sin imho.

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Yes juniperb, I don't think it is the birthchart itself, but what it does in you, the occult spiritual forces involved in it, and the fact that, the moment you use it and put your faith in it, it susbtitutes what could have been a moment of interaction with God.

posted November 10, 2012 03:48 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
God gave us that tool for us to use. If you recognize the divinity in something, then it honors God. If you put something ahead of God, then that something becomes an idol. It could be a piece of pie or washing your car. Astrology is not divining. It is just one of many tools that God gives us. The Uni-verse is made up of symbols in the collective unconscious that God uses to communicate with us. Astrology is no different then anything else. But if YOU believe it is evil, then for YOU it is a sin. And if you choose instead to expand your consciousness and see that God is behind all that is, then it is quite the opposite; it's not sin at all--it's liberating.

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Next time you want to know something, that astrology usually tells you, try not using it and asking God about it instead and finding out all the beautiful and subtle ways God will answer you, in His own time. This may sound absurd to you, but me and all people who have abandoned occultism will guarantee you it will be a completely diferent experience, as well as the building of a strong, intimate, personal relationship with God. He wants you to share your heart and thoughts with Him.

Would you like your son not to talk to you and rather use what he thinks are your tools to grow up and become master-like?