posted November 10, 2012 04:04 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
No, thanks. I'll pass. Why should I build a house with my bare hands, when God gives me a tool set?

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Because Jesus loves you and doesn't want you to build that house alone, nor use the ocultic tool set. He want to build that house WITH YOU through a direct, personal relationship (occultism substitutes this), if you allow Him to.

Your hands and His. As you would with your own son/daughter, Randall.

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You are doing little more than proselytizing here. And you assume that you are superior in some way, but smugness will never sway others to your opinion.

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Stop treating me like an enemy or someone who looks down upon you man! It's not like that at all! :-(

All this time I've been constructively criticizing astrology, NOT YOU. I even took your mockery (and no, I don't like it when people do that).

posted November 10, 2012 04:14 PM            

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Originally posted by MillyX:
I on the other hand feel much free, since I have decided to break away from religion. I was born and raised in born again christianity & honestly I experienced more divide & fear than unity & love.

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Sorry to hear that MillyX. Christianity is often misunderstood by christians and some of them even impose it on their children. Sometimes, so called christians end up being and acting more like pharisees: lots of laws, but hearts are closed. Pharisaism can produce very bad results and broken hearts.

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Live and let live...

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posted November 10, 2012 04:45 PM            

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Originally posted by Kamots:
... the moment you use it and put your faith in it, it susbtitutes what could have been a moment of interaction with God.

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Unless you're a Hermit living your life as one - such testimonials come as the ones from a preacher that doesn't follow the teachings it preaches... "only a Hermit" is entitled to such remarks - as one who has given-up on a life that stands in the way of his interaction with God... wile you're being selective... and maybe missing the greatest threat (for one in your position) - such as "the Internet"...

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...this reminds of a quote by Pierre Teilhard de Chardin:

"we are not human beings on a spiritual journey, we are spiritual beings on a human journey."

posted November 10, 2012 04:59 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Kamots:
I don't think sharing a personal testimony of your spiritual journey, your thoughts about things and defending your viewpoint is "not letting others live" or imposing anything.

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If I may just interject here... I have read through the whole thread and personally, I think there is a difference between expressing where you are right now in a sharing way which comes from love and expressing it in a sharing way which is rooted in fear for the other persons with whom you are sharing.

The first part of your statement on page 1 was sharing how you felt you had changed for the better - and that's great! No matter how we experience life, ideally we do it living our own truths, whatever those truths may be.

What happened afterwards, however, is that your story developed an energy of conversion and an undertone of your way being the right way which is no longer sharing, it's debating. If you wanted a debate then that's fine, but you keep saying that you just felt that you wanted to share your own experience of enlightenment and are worried for the souls here on LL. And that's when people are going to start getting defensive.

I learned this at age 4 when my best friend and I (she was Jewish and I was Christian) had a heated argument at my sleepover about whose religion was the right one. That was my first experience with a religious debate and it never goes anywhere good.

I am no longer Christian although some members of my family are, and I respect their right to believe what is true for them and I expect the same in return from them - from all people really.

If you want to share, that's great, but just recognize that the moment it becomes a debate or people feel that you're trying to convert them, it engenders a feeling in people that you are telling them that your beliefs are superior to their own. And that never ends well.

This is just my opinion, but having grown up around the bible, I would suggest perhaps simply leading by example - there are dozens of quotes about this in the bible (so there's no use in writing them out) and I find that is is usually a much more peaceful (and useful) way to spread the word of God if that is your goal.

posted November 11, 2012 07:46 AM            

I know I am right and do not listen.

One theme in the Bible is the two different spiritual realms--one of darkness and one of light.
They are very real, although we cannot see them with our naked eye, of course.

However, they are both there and they influence men, in man's thoughts. This realm can whisper things to a man's mind.

In this realm, there are rules and "laws" just as we have on the physical earth, such as the law of gravity etc

In this realm, the beings can whisper things to man but cannot MAKE man act. Man has free will.

Back to Astrology, the Bible makes it clear that a Christian needs to stay away from the realm of darkness.

Witchcraft is indicated as one place of darkness. CALLING up the dead is another. I have Christian friends to whom dead loved ones have come, but they have not called them up.

I will leave this subject, for the moment, as I am not sure about it.

However, Astrology is a science of the Universe. It is a science of the energy of the planets.

The star the wise men followed to find Jesus was thought to be a chart.

The chart has not inherent energy of good or bad, just as the TV has no inherent energy of good or bad.

The chart is blue print of a man, as a house has a blueprint.

Is the house's blueprint evil? You need to know where the plumbing is or the electrical wiring, if a problem arises.

There is no good or bad about it. It is the plan for the house. The chart is the blueprint of each man.

God gave that gift to each person who has the wisdom to find it.

That is my opinion, from my study. Many Christians don't agree, but I could care less

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted November 11, 2012 10:22 AM            

Astrology vs Christianity Full Debate (John Ankerberg show) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vgqWS2lovw4

I particularly enjoyed Former Astrologer Karen Winterburn's interventions there, starting at around 12'45'' of the video.

Karen Winterburn was a professional astrologer for 12 years and left a little personal testimony here: http://www.equip.org/PDF/DO035.pdf

and a little more here, where she speaks about the New Age and the Ascended Masters http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iQYTN6Q2n0

posted November 11, 2012 11:15 AM            

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted November 11, 2012 04:23 PM            

Vatican Observatory

The Jesuit's have been using such for use in both astronomy & astrology since its inception -nods-

In either case, the study of the stars is something mankind has been doing since we fist looked upward! Astrology is simply an alternate interpretation of those observations, there is absolutely nothing wrong with it!

posted November 11, 2012 06:54 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
You may choose to live in a fishbowl. But I reside in the ocean.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
I don't get bent out of shape over narrow views.

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No offense, but it’s kind of ironic that I get called “narrow minded”, after my spiritual journey has taken me through so many years of Astrology, 6 years of Kung-Fu, Traditional Chinese Medicine, Reflexology, Reiki, Crystals, Theosophy (Ascended Masters), Zen Buddism, Shakra Healing, Multidimentional Healing, and other New Age practices/tools I had my faith on.

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Originally posted by Ami Anne: I appreciate your kind attitude in extending the links but I know what I know.

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… And yet most people here, who are supposed to be more “open minded” than me and always looking forward to expand their consciousness, will refuse to study or explore the videos or personal testimonies of the former astrologers that I linked, nor INVESTIGATE this issue further.

PS: I'm not aiming at you personally, Ami. I just used your post to make a point I have been feeling throughout this thread. And just so you know, I find you particularly kind. Thank you for that

Anyway, if you had watched that video of the debate between astrology and Christianity, Ami Anne, you would have heard this interesting question for christians who seek or practice astrology:

posted November 11, 2012 06:55 PM            

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Originally posted by Lei_Kuei:
This isn't just used for star gazing...

Vatican Observatory

The Jesuit's have been using such for use in both astronomy & astrology since its inception -nods-

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Hi Lei_Kuei, I do believe the Vatican approves of Astronomy, as it approves all natural sciences (Biology, Chemistry and Physics), due to the fact these are considered potential tools of "finding out how wonderful God is", my having made such a beautiful and complex world.

However, I think you are going too far by claiming this observatory is used for astrology, as Christianity, including the Vatican, codemns occultism:

2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.

2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity.

Source: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a1.htm

Against New Age: http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_co uncils/interelg/documents/rc_pc_interelg_doc_20030203_press-conf-new-age_en.html

posted November 11, 2012 09:06 PM            

If someone suggested to you that you start googling Judaism or watch videos about converting to Atheism I imagine you would probably ignore it. Why? Because you have your beliefs and are honoring your truth.

Why are you finding it so difficult to accept that others have a right to choose their own path? You've gone from telling us about your experience to asking people to seriously consider a change of faith to being offended that no one is responding in the way you would like.

I don't know if you bothered to read my previous post on this thread because you never responded to it. I'm not trying to be unkind myself, however I'm starting to find your own posts ironic given the subject matter.

posted November 11, 2012 09:25 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Sorcha:
I don't know if you bothered to read my previous post on this thread because you never responded to it. I'm not trying to be unkind myself, however I'm starting to find your own posts ironic given the subject matter.

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I'm sorry Sorcha, I wasn't sure what to answer to your posts and I guess I ended up delaying that answer :/

Please notice all I've had to respond so far, to so many people. I'm alone in here and I've had to spend a lot of time researching and structuring my ideas, or reflecting upon other people's structured arguments... It takes more time than you imagine and is quite tiring..

Please don't take it as some sort of "me ignoring you" position. I will be editing this post by tomorrow evening to try to answer your previous posts properly, ok?

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Originally posted by Sorcha:
If someone suggested to you that you start googling Judaism or watch videos about converting to Atheism I imagine you would probably ignore it. Why? Because you have your beliefs and are honoring your truth.

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I find it unfair that you equate my video of debate between astrologers and Christians, with "videos of convertion to Atheism".

Or that you compare my links of personal testimonies from former astrologers who left astrology (as myself), to links on Judaism (which I have read by the way and will continue to - i love studying other religions and their main books).

And yes, if someone came to talk to me about any possible danger involving my soul, or things not being what they look like, I would definitely listen to that person's case and arguments before dismissing them.

quote:

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Originally posted by Sorcha:
Why are you finding it so difficult to accept that others have a right to choose their own path? You've gone from telling us about your experience to asking people to seriously consider a change of faith to being offended that no one is responding in the way you would like.

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I also don't think it's fair that you and other people tell me I trying to prevent people from finding their own paths and truth, when I'm just bringing new thoughts and arguments to the table, for people's consideration. I don't see how sharing the negative discovery I made about astrology and engaging in civilized debate and discussion represents oppression to anyone. And you might want to look back upon how this debate started. My posts have been responses to other poster's interventions. I gave links when Lazyscarecrow asked for links

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Originally posted by Lazyscarecrow:
I am still trying to let it set in, but I just wanted to thank you for sharing, and if you have any links to those similar stories, I'd love to explore and read them.

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and Biblical quotes to backup my viewpoints, when this was pertinent to responding to the other posters, especially when some started saying that "Christianity or Jesus say astrology is okay". Just look back and see for yourself.

And in all this, I didn't get angry at people's divergent viewpoints nor offended by people's lack of interest in exploring the issue (like you just claimed, when you said i was offended by people not "converting"). I also didn't offend or was rude to anyone. Why do people have to get angry at me and start claiming I am attempting to harm their freedom or opinions? And where in my posts do you see "people, convert to Christianity!".

What I basically said was "people, astrology tastes wonderful, but me and some other people found out it is actually spiritually harmful in an occult way which we do not detect. Please take a moment to reflect upon my arguments."

posted November 12, 2012 03:36 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by kindredcayce:
I have to say, reading all viewpoints on this thread has been beneficial to me... I have practiced astrology for many years, and have found myself in a spiritual void. I'm not saying astrology is to blame for that, for me... but I have began to question if astrology has been a hinderance, to me personally. I'm the sort of person that throws herself whole heartedly into something, once interested, and I feel I've had spiritual "blinders" on for quite some time. The more I learn about astrology, it seems the less focus I've put on my spiritual growth... I'm not saying astrology is *bad* at this point, but it may be *bad* for me. I've enjoyed reading all of Kamots's posts as well as everyone else's here. I'm still working my way through all of the links. As long as everyone remains respectful, I love a healthy debate. Just my 2 cents.

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Thank you for your contribution kindredcayce if you don't want to view all links, just watch the debate video. It is long, but the content is very good.

posted November 12, 2012 03:53 PM            

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“Does the information that any astrologers have, improve upon or expand in any way the REVELATION that God has given us in scripture? In other words, what can you do for us, that Jesus Christ and the God of the Bible hasn’t already told us about and warned us about, or done for us, by sending His Son to be our Saviour? No matter what your reason for practicing astrology may be, why don’t you instead go to Him, who is the ruler and the root and the offspring of day, the bright and of the morning star. Why not go to the one that created the heavens, instead of letting astrology take your eyes off the creator and glue them on the creation? To worship the God that made it, not the thing He made."
Dr Walter Martin – Director and Founder of the Christian Research Institute (at 1:17’48’’)

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If you do this, you should never go to a doctor, a counselor or a natural health healer.

You should stay in a cave with your Bible.

No thanks

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted November 12, 2012 04:31 PM            

New King James Version (NKJV)
Faith Without Works Is Dead

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your[a] works, and I will show you my faith by my[b] works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?[c] 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[d] And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?