posted May 10, 2010 05:15 AM            

I found this post by Peri, which is helpful:

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There are tree points and a body.

2 Black Moon Liliths: one is mean BML (Lilith on additional objects list in astro.com) the other is true BML (h13 Osculating Lunar Apogee on the list of "hypothetical" planets )

asteroid Lilith (#1181 on the list of named asteroids)

and Dark Moon Lilith (h58 Waldemath Black Moon on the list of "hypothetical" planets)

In my opinion, BML represents the subconscious part of our mind or the Unknown, its a hightly individual point in the chart, it is something that makes us different from others. BML also represents our anima/animus figure which is very interesting for synastry charts comparison. A relationship under the influence of BML may grow into a dangerous liaison, into a painful, intense, obsessive or strange love affair.

Which of them to use true or mean? The true is the more accurate placement but an ephemeris for it has only been available for about 10 years so not as much work has been done using it.
From my personal experience, I can say mean BML does work and manifests itself in transits and synastry quite noticeably! As for true BML, I haven't studied it properly yet.

Asteroid Lilith indicates where a person does not fit the cultural stereotype, leading to some kind of exile from the community, where we struggle with social judgments. In synastry, it can provoke confrontations with gender role stereotypes or a non-submissive disposition with regard to gender roles, personal independence and the use of sex as a weapon of vengeance or domination or maybe even lack of sexual commitment.

As for Dark Moon Lilith, it's a debated dark shadow around the Earth. Some think it is a ball of space dust, which would explain why it doesn't reflect the Sun as other Moons do. According to Delphine Jay,the effect of Dark Moon Lilith is distinctly impersonal. I have never worked with DML. So I have nothing to say about it.

My mean BML on the 5th house cusp conjunct Jupiter and parallel Sun
My true BML in the 4th conjunct Sun and asteroid Datura
asteroid Lilith in the 1st conjunct asteroid Child in opposition to Saturn
DML conjunct Juno in the 10th...

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posted May 10, 2010 05:24 AM            

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My Mean Lilith -- not the nasty one , the position you get when you choose Lilith in the "additional objects" box at astro.com -- is in the 2nd at 3 Libra, conjunct my Venus at 2 Libra. Actually, I've started using True BML, which is object (lower-case h) h13 and can be entered in the additional asteroids or hypothetical planets box.

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So... is the MEAN Lilith *not* the nasty one then?

I had a look at my own and it is at 3' degrees Gemini, in the 12th house - largely conjunct Chiron.
Not significant in any way in a relationship. The men I attract don't have personal planets conjunct.

posted May 10, 2010 05:41 AM            

I checked my synastry and my True Lilith is at 6 Taurus exactly opposite his Mars at 6 Scorpio (also my natal Pluto at 6 Scorpio).

His own True Lilith is conjunct his Saturn in Aries - both exactly conjunct my Sun.

The Mean Liliths don't do much.

posted May 10, 2010 05:44 AM            

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Who would feel the sexual attraction? The Lilith or the planet person?

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posted May 10, 2010 06:14 AM            

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I like what Juan Antonio Revilla says about it here:

“The Mean Apogee or Black Moon… It’s movement is actually as round and regular as the hands of a clock and it is very easy to calculate. This roundness of its motion is not a good representative of the nocturnal and magic demoness Lilith; “ he goes onto say. “The Osculating Apogee,… Some people reject it because it doesn’t make any sense to them to have it swing as much as 30 degrees from the mean position and have abrupt and irregular changes of velocity and direction, but I think it is precisely this erratic behavior what makes it the best representative of the irrational, instinctive, and primal symbolism of Lilith.”

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As you can see Lilith has the potential to become severely warped. But it’s dangers come from it’s repression. For fear of being overwhelmed by its power, it can become the taboo area in your chart. With Lilith repressed or in difficult aspect, one is most likely to exhibit it’s negative side: manipulation, brainwashing, drug addiction, sadist/masochistic tendencies, raging anger, misogyny (in men) nymphomania and bunny boilerism.

As I said in my intro, Osculating Lilith and Mean Lilith can be as far as 30 degs apart. In this zone barriers to the spirit world are thinner. It describes a process. Osculating Lilith opens the door to the Black Moon corridor, but it’s an unstable magic potion. By the time you get to Mean Lilith, it’s magic has fermented into something more stable.

snake Black Moon Lilith Rising. People with tight corridors will have a more concentrated, intense Lilith experience, one where the barriers are so thin as to be a hole. This is what I liken to a black hole. With so much psychic information coming in at once, it can be a battle sifting through what is demonic and what is a genuine intuitive flash. Any planets conjunct this area will give clues to where the battle will manifest.

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Love it! Thanks for posting

posted May 10, 2010 06:44 AM            

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I think the Lilith person is interested in how the planet person puts them in touch with their personal taboos.

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I am the Lilith in exact conjunction with his Sun --in synastry.
I feel HE can go places which scare me and so I feel able to contemplate going there, myself
Perhaps, the sun person gives freedom of expression to the Lilith person.
In my case, that is how I would see it.

posted May 10, 2010 07:33 AM            

Lilith wants to be treated equally, yet her way of being can be misunderstood in the end. Even if she wants to be part of this world as herself, she does realize that she might not be seen as such in the end.

posted May 10, 2010 05:23 PM            

are you using true or mean Lilith?

Anyway I like what you said about "laughter". Wasn`t Lilith known for her wicked laughter in mythology? Or do I mis-remembering something?

And yes, I also think she is very sexy, but in my case, it is also connected to some sort of block / rejection feeling. NOt that I reject the other person, it`s more like a part of me rejects feeling that way, and yet feels drawn to them like a moth to the light. It`s like the red button you know you should not be pushing, but you just can`t resist it, and even if you know all hell will break loose you can`t do anything but push that button.

Or maybe something else is responsible for that feeling?

posted May 11, 2010 10:12 AM            

the observation you made on Lilith and "anger attacks" in this forum is very interesting. I have sometimes wondered about that, too, but then I somehow "lost" that thought again.
But I can say for myself that sometimes when I get angry concerning threads on the forum, it feels very "Lilithian", w hich is why I try to especially keep back with some sort of irrational responses.
Usually I am getting angered when I feel like there is a certain "disrespect for other people`s mental processes" going on (of course I am just as subjective as anyone else). But sometimes this really creates havoc inside of me.

My Lilith is in Aquarius near to the 3rd house cusp, so I guess I do not have to search for other reasons. It is a very selfexplanatory placement.

From your description you seem to use mean Lilith btw.

EDIT:
Last week I was in a really bad mood, grumpy, moody, selfrighteous (I know that I was, and I hate these periods), with a lot of anger rumbling underneath and basically feeling like a volcano under a cover of icy water, just an inch away from blowing up.

And actually TR Neptune and TR BML are conjunct my natal BML(mean and true one).

posted May 11, 2010 12:17 PM            

For me Lilith has also to do much with one`s own truth and how you can`t compromise your truth, even if that means that you may be an outcast in your closer social environment.

In that regard I clearly have always embraced my Lilith.

But still I do also fear her, or the enormous range of emotions she can produce.

There are two guys I remember just now. One has Mars and BML squaring my own BML; the other has his BML exactly opposing my BML.

It`s been an ongoing struggle against "being pulled into the depth" for me. I am deeply fascinated with them, yet I do not understand where this fascination comes from nor I do want it to be there.

posted May 11, 2010 01:55 PM            

Perhaps Celine Dion.
You might laugh but I think Ivana Trump would be a good example.
She seems to own all that she is.