posted August 15, 2009 12:39 PM         

However, I think that there might some type of predetermined thing. I can't help wondering that when I see certain asteroid stuff.

I wrote about it in certain posts
like my mom's solar return period of when she met my biological father.

I wrote some stuff about the asteroid, split. I had a hunch that I had it in hard aspect to my Sun which meant that my father split on me,abandoned me. Sure enough, it squares my Sun with 2 minutes of arc. The asteroid,Ariadne conjuncts my Sun less than 1 degree too,and it relates to abandonment issues. The asteroid,Scotti is conjunct my Sun with 3 minutes of arc, and Scott is the last name of my father. It was like my father leaving me and my never knowing him was predetermined.

my mom and I were involved in a shooting when I was almost 3 years old. She was shot,and I was with her at the time She and I both have hard Moon-Gunnie aspects within 10 minutes of arc. I have Moon in 6th oppose Gunnie in 12th,and my mom's shooting led to health problems that still are problem including the Hepatitis C that she got from blood from a transfusion to replace the blood that she lost from the shooting. She has Moon in 5th house square Gunnie.

I had asteroids involving my exgf's name when I met her for the first time.

I posted an asteroid post on the relationships between my mother,father,stepfather,and me.

also..in my own chart, I have asteroids pertaining to my biological father and my stepfather conjunct in my 4th house within 10 minutes of arc sesquiquadrating my Sun within 1 degree. It was like my stepfather was meant to replace my biological father. He was the only father that that I ever knew. It seemed predestined.

the ethnic asteroids work in my chart and other charts that I have seen too.
It's no coincidence that I have a conjunction of Africa-Africano in Aries sextile Midheaven in 11'14 Gemini which has the Sabian Symbolthat says "Negro Girl Fights For Independence in The City". It's not coincidence that my mother also has an Africa-Africano in Aries conjunction too, and it squares her 5th house ruler Venus and oppose her Neptune in Libra.
When the asteroid,White was first named in the mid 2000's, I went to see if it conjunct my Moon reflecting my white mother. Sure enough, it conjunct my Moon within half a degree. UnitedNations conjunct my AntiVertex (an auxilliary ascendant) with 18 minutes of arc is no joke either, especially considering that I am multiracial,born of an interracial relationship.
That's why I used asteroids in sociological astrology, coming up with Sociological Asteroid Astrology. I use the asteroids to look at sociological (not political) matters that include race relations matters.

Heck, the asteroid,Moran is stationary direct in Pisces in my 7th house conjunct my Ascendant,and Moran is the senior pastor of the church that I am a member of.

I actually think Asteroid Astrology has cemented my belief in Astrology. I think Astrology with the planets,signs alone are vague. I think that with the use of asteroids, there are more details and specifics. That's just my view from being an asteroid astrologer.

with all the stuff that I have seen with asteroids over the years since 1999, I don't see how can say that Asteroid Astrology is meaningless. I can't say that Astrology is meaningless either.

I believe that there is a fated,karmic,predetermined thing about Astrology. Therefore, I don't approach Astrology as just psychological. That's why I even like Evolutionary Astrology. I am into Evolutionary Asteroid Astrology.

My view about coordinates in Astrology:

What we see in the sky is relative, and there are many ways to look at the sky. As astrologers,we mainly use ecliptic longitude coordinates, and some astrologers also use declinations(equatorial latitude coordinates). However,astronomers don't use the ecliptic longitude coordinates. They use Right Ascension(equatorial longitude coordinates) along with declinations to locate celestial objects. Does that mean that astrologers are using the wrong coordinates? Of course not. Does that mean that astronomers are using the wrong coordinates? Of course not. They are both looking at the same sky, but they are looking at it from different perspectives. Horizon coordinates have been used too, and they are used in visual based star paran system. There are many coordinates that we can use to locate celestial objects, and so many perspectives of how we look at the sky.

Raymond

------------------
“It is absolutely the perfect name,” Dr. Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

posted August 15, 2009 01:41 PM         

I guess

but I do believe that we can know things ahead of time too.

for example, I knew that this one gal and guy were going to fall in love before they did. I knew from looking at their synastry. This gal was somebody that I liked too,and I sensed strong chemistry between the two of them. I also suspected that the relationship wouldn't work out either. That was from the synastry. It took 3 years for her to realize what type of man he really was. She ended up coming back to me too. I tried to make it work, but the trust issues that I had from her picking him over me destroyed that. She ended up meeting another guy,and they are married. Therefore,I am happy for her.

that's just one example.

now an example of how I don't know how something would work until after

well

in my current solar return chart

I have the following asteroid,setup

conjunction of
Flora in 2'00 Libra in 2nd
Florya in 3'45 Libra in 2nd

trine Midheaven in 1'51 Gemini

Florey in 2'23 Scorpio
conjunct 5'20 Scorpio

conjunction of
Floris-Jan in 21'30 Virgo in 1st
Saturn in 18'17 Virgo in 1st

oppose Uranus in 19'07 Pisces

I thought this asteroid setup had something to do with possiblity of relocating to Florida where my exgf and her mother relocated to.

I met a intuitive reader named Anne Angelheart back in January. She gave me a soul reading. She ended recommended a shaman by the name of Steve Flores to healing work on me.

I did went to see him around the end of January of this year. He turned out to be somebody who shared similar things like neurodivergence,special education/being ridiculed for it. He and I ended up going to dinner or lunch after healing sessions. He has become my mentor and best friend. I helped him set up at 2 past healing arts fairs. He even thought about me relocating with him to Hawaii where he wants to open up a spiritual,healing center.

so those asteroids didn't mean Florida. They meant Steve Flores.

but at the time, I met him, he had a girlfriend who was from Florida!

now the asteroids in Steve's natal chart

Florey in 11'17 Aries
conjunct Sun in 9'47 Aries

Florya in 4'05 Virgo
oppose/conjunct Midheaven/Imum Coeli in 6'36 Virgo/Pisces

Floris-Jan in 18'24 Virgo in 10th
square Flora in 19'03 Gemini in 7th

the most amazing was that he was born on March 30th like my exgf.

He has Sun conjunct Eris with 26 minutes of arc
I have Sun conjunct heliocentric South Eris Node with 10 minutes of arc.

He has Neptune sextile Midheaven with 19 minutes of arc
I have Heliocentric North Neptune Node sextile Midheaven with 14 minutes of arc

so it seems that he is here to help me along my path and my life purpose

I am a strong believer in synchronicity.

Raymond

------------------
“It is absolutely the perfect name,” Dr. Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

posted August 15, 2009 01:41 PM         

quote:

---

Saturn's square or whatever the hell else is going on in your chart is simply a reflection of what's already THERE. The stars don't define us. They reflect us. We are the ones casting the damn image, and so aren't we the ones who are to reflect back, into our selves?

---

Isn't the whole point of astrology the (fatalistic, scientifically and spiritually dubious) idea that the position of the stars at the time of our first breath DOES define us??? Isn't that one of the main things that makes it so seductive? Some people see it as the stars showing our influences and potential, rather like genes...others see it as more fatalistic than that ["Johnny Depp's asteroids WooWoo, PeePee, and Cynthia fall in my 7th house, conjunct my Vertex!!! So therefore he is in my Soul Family."]

Even if you belong to the "stars are only potential" school, the very allure of the idea--especially to the Soul Mate people--is that something beyond and other than free will, choice, conscious and courageous living, and chance is totally controlling our Destinies-with-a-Capital-D. The reason you see it more with synastry around here than with natal aspects is that it totally aggrandizes people's unrequited crushes, creepy celebrity obsessions, and bad relationships with unavailable or uninterested people into something a) mutual, b) Destined, and c) Spiritual.

"She is his Twin Flame but he cannot be with her in This Lifetime" is a wildly more palatable idea for his current girlfriend than, "He has a weird obsession with this other woman but he never had the guts to actually be with her, but his connection to her feels heavier, more unique, and more fated to him than his relationship with me."

The very idea/fantasy is that the stars DO define us, not reflect us. It specifically and explicitly allows the self-delusional and quasi-religious solace of fatalism.

posted August 15, 2009 01:50 PM         

quote:

---

I suppose if YOU insist, then they'll always display that fixed quality

---

I do insist that their Sun sign energy is there regardless of whether one wants to acknowledge it or not. Like I said, I've been surprised at a number of people's Sun signs before, but that surprise always gives way to seeing that Sun energy come out in their life. And people have seen a different Sun sign in me on this forum as well (Libra). It doesn't mean there's nothing Capricornian about me.

posted August 15, 2009 03:11 PM         

I don't see Astrology as entertainment. I don't see it as fun. I see it as a metaphysical science/art which I approach as an intuitive healing art.

There are a lot of astrological consultants that do approach Astrology as an intuitive healing art and not as some fortune telling thing. They sincerely have the desire to help people, and they get charged for their services.

imho astrologers,psychics,and numerologists understood me more than conventional mental health professionals

of course, neurologist/psychiatrist, Dr. Harold N. Levinson is a big exception.

Astrology has helped me understand myself and others. It helped me understand especially about how my feelings work like being a psychic,emotional sponge,empath. I have used Astrology to help others understand themselves and others too.

It's no coincidence that both my parents had moon in watersign. It's no coincidence that I am not only a 2nd straight generation Pisces Moon on my father's side, but I also seem to inherit Pisces Moon from my maternal grandfather. My mom has Sun in 12th trine Neptune in 5th herself. That's just only a few astrogenetic factors.

I definitely don't view Astrology as entertainment. I don't do Astrology to entertain others. Many other astrologers don't either.

There are so many quacks in many fields....not just in the metaphysical ones. Don't get me started on the quacks in mental health field.

Raymond

------------------
“It is absolutely the perfect name,” Dr. Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

posted August 15, 2009 03:27 PM         

We've all got our own ways of doing things.

posted August 15, 2009 04:00 PM         

Just turn me loose, let me straddle my old saddle
Underneath the western skies.
On my Cayuse, let me wander over yonder
Till I see the mountains rise.

I want to ride to the ridge where the west commences
And gaze at the moon till I lose my senses
And I can't look at hovels and I can't stand fences
Don't fence me in.

posted August 15, 2009 05:55 PM         

quote:

---

Whatever, AG. I'm done with the sun sign thing with you. You keep insisting on getting it back to that.

---

If we're both continuing to post on that subject, I'm not the only one insisting on something. Either we're both insisting, or we're both not insisting, wouldn't you agree?

posted August 15, 2009 06:03 PM         

This thread got long quick. I was going to comment yesterday, but didn't have time.

I haven't followed all of this thread, so forgive me if I'm repeating what others have said...

Usually if I get to the point where I'm getting sick of astrology (I have before), I take a step back from it. Sometimes it's important to get perspective back on YOUR LIFE. Go do other things, find other hobbies. I usually come back with a renewed interest and the want to start fresh.

I've never been one of those people to not be friends with someone or not date someone because of their natal chart, and I never would do that. I judge people based on their standalone characteristics first. Now, often, I'll look at their chart, ignore the fact that half their chart is squaring mine, and yes, sometimes we end up being completely incompatible. However, I find that if the other person is as willing as I am to work on the relationship, it really doesn't matter at the end of the day. I'd rather go into a relationship, stars be damned, and learn a lesson or get something positive out of it (even if the situation was wholly negative) than not try and get absolutely nothing.

Personally, I see astrology simply as a guide. This natal chart shows these tendencies that a person routinely goes back to when they are comfortable in life. This transit chart, progressed chart, or solar return simply outlines the parameters of the lessons and energies to be learned or dealt with this day, week, month, or year. It's all elastic rather than static, much like how most people are. It allows for growth and accomplishment as well as failure.

That being said, I can understand why you are sick of all the people asking questions about their "soul mates," "twin flames," "person they were absolutely SUPPOSED to be with but due to some twist of fate, AREN'T." Putting those kinds of labels on people sets the bar too high and puts the beloved up on a pedestal that is far out of reach and does not allow for the humanity of the other person involved. All people have success and failure. All people are flawed but with strengths. There's no reason to put this person above everyone else because they have their Venus in your 7th house. I'm sure A LOT of people have their Venus in your 7th house.

Is it a basis to disregard ALL of astrology? I don't know. That's a personal choice, so I'm not going to try to convince you one way or the other. Sometimes our own revulsion from being immersed in something for so long colors our entire perception of that thing.

posted August 17, 2009 02:24 AM         

I am reminded that it's my impatient aries sun wanting to know RIGHT NOW if everything is going to be the way I want it to be....

I am happy though with the self knowledge that we get from Astrology. And even the knowledge we can share with our friends and family... Reading through all of these posts, I have learned so much.... I can look at friends' charts now and offer a bit of insight here and there... because I've seen some ridiculous thread about an Aquarius in highschool who's Bff ran off with her Scorpio and now her momma (who is a Cancer) can't stand the Aries that she has rebounded with.... And ehhh who cares cuz we all know that Aries won't stick around very long...

posted August 18, 2009 03:41 PM         

It's been just as helpful for teaching me about my loved ones and our relationships. I've learned a lot. I could've possibly made all the same realizations without the aid of astrology, but it would've taken longer. Astrology helps me more clearly see patterns and their source in myself and others, and to see them more fully and objectively.

Besides "ordinary" astrology, I like asteroids, midpoints, declinations, dwads, and draconics. It's amazing to me the themes that show themselves, how well they match up with how I experience reality. Seeing these patterns with astrology and its inherent order and neatness,helps me be more objective. Without astrology, I can more easily get stuck in a loop, seeing only what I expect to see, blind to the unexpected. For me, astrology opens my mind as it orders it. It's an additional way to learn.

Astrology also strengthens my spirituality. To see the synchronicity between my inner world and the external one unites the two, telling me there's not a rigid boundary between them.

As far as the deterministic approach to synastry...it's hard for me to wrap my head around that perspective. I think it rests on the flawed premise that a chart can show us the degree of something, rather than just the style. Whether natal or synastry, the chart shows style not substance.

For instance, Venus cnj Sun in synastry. Shows attraction and harmony. But that attraction and harmony can be mild or deep love. Same with Venus cnj Pluto. There will likely be a compulsive attraction, but the love that goes with it cannot be seen.

I don't think the degree of anything - intelligence, beauty, maturity, cruelty, kindness - can be seen in a natal chart. All we can see in that is the styles in which someone is inclined to express themselves. Same with synastry, the degree of love can't be seen.

posted August 18, 2009 03:48 PM         

Synastry

DECLINATION, LONGITUDE EQUIVALENTS, AND SYNASTRY
by Bette Denlinger
Copyright 1996

It occurred to me while working with synastry charts that it might be interesting and astrologically informative to set up these charts using only the natal planetary declination longitude equivalents (referred to throughout as the "l.e.'s"). The results were quite revealing.

Using my own chart set up with only the natal cusps I entered only the l.e. positions of the natal planets, including the solstice point equivalents, and I was amazed at the results. The l.e. Neptune moves into my 7th house and receives a wonderful trine from my natal Sun (there is no aspect at all between these two planets before converting Neptune to its l.e.) Neptune's move to the angle increases its power considerably. I have gravitated towards counseling all my life.

Pluto and Mars have no aspect relationship in their natal longitudinal positions. Pluto's l.e. moves it to square Mars. I do have an explosive temper and a definite attraction for intense men.

Mercury's natal longitude makes no aspect to my natal Moon and only a semi sextile to Saturn. As ruler of 10th I would expect these aspects present since I have worked in real estate. Mercury's l.e. moves it to a conjunction with natal Moon and a trine to Saturn.

These aspects seem more correct to me than the natal positions.

Then I took my ex-husbands chart (we are still rather close) and set it up using only the l.e.'s. Amazing. His natal Venus at 2 Gemini doesn't make any strong synastric aspects to my chart. But by l.e. it is exactly conjunct my natal Mercury (chart ruler) and very close to my Moon l.e.. There is much more in that combination of longitude equivalents than in the two original charts themselves. Plus the l.e.'s indicated the marriage in my chart, which had never been found by conventional methods.

The next chart I examined was of a young friend who was going through severe depression and emotional turmoil. No birth time was available and a natural chart was not helping me find the problem. His natal Mercury is nicely aspected but out of bounds. I intuitively felt he was suicidal and he spoke of this himself. Transiting Saturn had been squaring his natal Mercury off and on the past year to produce serious problems, yet had moved on, so he should have been more optimistic, but using the l.e. of Mercury made it possible to see a tie in with the progressed chart. By secondary progressions there was an Eclipse at 20 Capricorn. There were events in his life that were significant in view of an eclipse, but no aspect to natal planets to explain the suicidal tendencies. The natal l.e. Mercury, however, at 20 Capricorn had been "hit" by this Eclipse. Even without a birth time, this was obviously the trigger. It was this progressed Eclipse that created the crises activating mental instability, magnified by the conjunction to his o-o-b natal Mercury and allowed emotion to color his mentality. Transitting Pluto also on his l.e. Venus was contributing to the emotional upheaval and feelings of abandonment.

I am using two separate charts now: the natal and the longitudinal equivalent chart based on declinations. I compare the progressed chart with both. I think the l.e. chart can almost stand alone. And the synastric comparison charts using the l.e.'s seem to be more informative overall.

What I am seeing is that the l.e. chart will show where the native can handle squares and oppositions. It explains why some people do so well with miserable squares and manage to build and shine rather than give up in defeat , and why some people utilize trines so well , yet others just become lazy. I see ways "out" with the l.e.s.

With synastric comparisons the interactions between the charts by using the l.e.s becomes exceedingly important as well as fascinating.

The charts presented here are of a couple married since July 11, 1964, and as this marriage has lasted over 30 years I think it's a wonderful sample. This is a warm, happy, loving couple. Linda and Tom have some basic compatibility as shown by the ordinary chart comparison and both charts show the potential for successful marriages. Her Saturn, an indicator of longevity in relationships, trines his Venus . Her Venus in the 11th house is conjunct his Mercury, his Mars is within 5 degrees of her Mercury (her 7th house ruler) . They do seem to have very good communication.

There is a worry here using conventional synastric comparison that his natal Venus square to Saturn , and that same Saturn opposing Linda's Mars, would cause coldness and eventual problems in the relationship.
By conversion to the declination equivalents, l.e. Mercury is on his 7th house cusp, so Mercury should be important to relationship. The traditional chart shows Sun in Tom's 7th yet it doesn't make strong, exact aspects to Linda's chart. However, Mercury does.

His l.e. Mercury is in exact aspect to her Venus, as in the natal chart, but now we see why that aspect is important since Tom's Mercury is so close to his 7th cusp. And Linda's l.e. Mercury, ruler of her 7th house, is exactly square his l.e. Venus . Also involved is her l.e. Mars, co-ruler of her first.

Further, his 7th house l.e. Mercury trines her 7th house Neptune.

When you look at the declination equivalent charts you'll notice that his l.e. Saturn moves to trine her Mars, instead of opposing it as in the natal comparison, and that his Mars l.e. at 6 CAP / 23 SAG is within 2 degrees of her Venus at 4 CAP / 25 SAG. So, although the links in natal charts are mostly Mercurial, this relationship is not all talk! Nor is it cold!! (They still hold hands like teenagers!)

Also, notice that in Tom's declination l.e. chart both Venus and Jupiter trine his 7th house Sun, creating more potential for a happy, loving marriage that is not seen with the natal chart.

There are many more contacts between these two charts to explore, including his l.e. Moon trine to her Sun. We're told in synastric books to look for signs that blend, but how much more interesting when by conversions those blended signs actually make an aspect!

Raymond

------------------
“It is absolutely the perfect name,” Dr. Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

“She causes strife by causing arguments among men, by making them think their opinions are right and everyone else’s is wrong,” Dr. Brown said. “It really is just perfect.”

posted August 18, 2009 04:03 PM         

Solar Fire does declination longitude equivalent charts. Kepler does too.

Raymond

------------------
“It is absolutely the perfect name,” Dr. Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

“She causes strife by causing arguments among men, by making them think their opinions are right and everyone else’s is wrong,” Dr. Brown said. “It really is just perfect.”

posted August 18, 2009 04:11 PM         

Might be wishful thinking here , but was "yeah" your answer to my request for a chart?

posted August 18, 2009 04:25 PM         

Raymond

------------------
“It is absolutely the perfect name,” Dr. Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

“She causes strife by causing arguments among men, by making them think their opinions are right and everyone else’s is wrong,” Dr. Brown said. “It really is just perfect.”

posted August 18, 2009 05:02 PM         

You can tell me I'm a demanding brat. Really, I'll only cry a little.
If you'd like to look, please email me for my info at

AG -

I'm laughing so hard right now. I was going to joke that by switching names, I'm like that "Three Faces of Eve" movie. But I couldn't remember its title precisely so I googled it. And look what it says...

Eve White is a timid, self-effacing wife and mother who has headaches and occasional blackouts. Eventually she is sent to see a personality psychiatrist Dr. Luther, and while under hypnosis her "alter personality", wild, fun-loving Eve Black, discloses herself...Under continued therapy, a third personality appears, the relatively stable Jane.

I'd heard of the movie, but had never seen it, so I had no idea about the Eve-Jane link. Must be my Sun-Neptune psychicness. Or psychosis.