posted August 14, 2009 08:40 PM         

Yep...I agree 100 percent!

Raymond

------------------
“It is absolutely the perfect name,” Dr. Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status.

In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War.

“She causes strife by causing arguments among men, by making them think their opinions are right and everyone else’s is wrong,” Dr. Brown said. “It really is just perfect.”

posted August 14, 2009 10:36 PM         

If a person turns down a relationship with a willing partner because supposedly they don't like what the synastry tells them, dependence on astrology itself is not the cause. There are usually 2 reasons:

1. They were not attracted strongly enough to that person. If the synastry had been compelling with elements of strong attraction, the person would not have listened to astrological warnings. The person would have found ways to gloss over the "bad" synastry aspects and dwell over the aspects that create the strong pull. I see it all the time here and on other forums.

posted August 14, 2009 10:47 PM         

And I'd say they all find useful bits to understand themselves better and also find plenty that's contrived (at least how they use it anyway) & self-serving.

And soul mates? That's a topic I avoid, but finding someone right is common to about all, too, they just use different terms to essentially mean the same thing. Like Carrie Underwood sings:

"Storybook endings, fairy tales coming true
Deep down inside we want to believe they still do
In our secretest heart, it's our favorite part of the story
Let's just admit we all want to make it too..."

Astrology may use charts, but Cosmo uses quizzes (like this). Potential "The Ones" sometimes have to run a gauntlet of assessment & judgment from friends & family & sometimes even churches & therapists. 'course even when they all give a pass, it may not work out (likewise, someone they all condemn may actually be The One, too).

I went to an astrologer once, mainly to find a way that someone I'd gotten close to could get along together as she was so much into starting drama and I was so into smoothing it over, among other things. Though skeptics will say she read us with her people skills rather than the stars, it hardly matters to me, what she came up with was so spot on and helpful, and I consider it money well-spent, better than going to a relationship counselor who I think wouldn't have given anywhere as good & honest advice & insight. And btw, the astrologer also said it was unlikely that our relationship would last given our charts, but gave us the best advice she could if we were determined to try, as opposed to some contrived feel good nonsense.

Also, from fandoms to religions to everything else, people see certain aspects they can relate to and project themselves into their interpretation which clash with the interpretations of others...this has not only caused endless "shipper wars" in fandoms that amaze me with how mean they get in flaming each other, but even some of the most vile, vicious holy wars & inquisitions that defy imagination in how cruel they were. 'Course too many think their individual interpretation is OBVIOUSLY the correct one, but that's like plenty of astrologers, too.

In short, EVERYTHING seems to me like how you described astrology, especially here:

"I think [insert bonding subject here] is a way of creating dialogue.
We get to talk about ourselves and use [source material here] and stuff to hide behind. Think about it. It's all so damned intimate. It's such a nice way to connect, and to use connection."

posted August 14, 2009 11:34 PM         

ITA with you - astrology can be blown WAY out of proportion. I've had professional astrologers pronounce that my chart matched up so wonderfully well with that of a guy or two, when the relationship never took off the ground - usually something obnoxious the guy said to me, or some minor annoying issue that got in the way that hinted at serious underlying issues!! OTOH, I've had a long-term relationship with a certain someone where charts have shown challenging aspects that should've perhaps prevented us from ever getting together, yet there appears to be staying power - so far so good.

So I totally agree that astrology should not the main factor in life decisions. It is better to rely on your common sense and gut instinct to gauge relationship potential. It would be sad to use astrology as the only means of determining whether a relationship should or should not happen, but many folks I know are perfectly happy to do just that, and even marry the person whose chart matched best. It may be the placebo effect where they decide the stars have ordained happiness for them, and subconsciously work to make it happen (a la The Secret), I don't know.. All I know is, when someone tries to talk me into a relationship based on a well-matched chart, red flags go up for me. I refuse to allow a chart to dictate the course of my relationship, and prefer to judge its merits based on other factors.

I think what happens in a forum is, we get antsy about a relationship at some point and come on here to dissect the relationship using astrology. We feel a great need to defend the relationship despite niggling misgivings that won't quiet down: "These are all the aspects why so-and-so HAS to be my Soulmate, and why we are most likely going to get back together despite the rocky patch we're going through." That is the rationale behind it, and I've been guilty of doing this much like anyone else! (I remember this long-drawn-out exercise I once engaged in, taking a detailed look at asteroids in our synastry, as a way of distracting me from being upset about what was or wasn't happening in the relationship. It was a fun exercise though time-consuming, but I needed to pay attention to my gut instinct, and eventually I put these tools away in my toybox to do that. Sometimes we may do this type of detailed analysis to reassure ourselves of longevity despite all the warning signs that a relationship is not good - one may even be a bit more desperate in those cases to prove that s/he is not crazy to hold onto it! And most of us work to provide reassurances to someone who needs it - "even if he cheated on you, you have all these magical aspects that indicate you are soulmates and will be together forever & ever". LOL, that was tongue-in-cheek, and I was just teasing.. (no offense intended to anyone) but you know what I mean.

I do want to state that despite my seemingly flippant comments about astrology, that I have found it as a discipline to be extremely illuminating in figuring out WHY a certain dynamic may exist in a relationship, or why I have certain personality quirks or faults that I can't seem to get a handle on. And, contrary to letting a chart make dire pronouncements for certain self-defeating habits I may have, or for challenges that may utterly prevent a relationship from ever coming together, I look at it as a way of helping educate myself of challenges that exist in the picture, that I will have to work to overcome. I have indeed found astrological reasons for such issues in my own chart and in my synastry with someone, and it helps me bear in mind when I get stuck in a cyclic pattern, that I need to break the pattern with constructive behavior. Sometimes, if you are keen enough, you may discover aspects in a chart that suggest precisely how you can break the cycle and help yourself. I've only touched the tip of the iceberg there, being an amateur myself, but I have been amazed to stumble on such cues in charts.

So, I guess I feel there's both good & bad to it like with anything else.. it all depends how you use it. And, if you're getting an overdose of it, it can give you a sour taste too...

Gosh, I was heavily into horary for a couple of years until I went through an awful phase a few months ago that made me question everything. My frustration was aimed everywhere - I was mad at astrology, mad at horary for making me believe things would work out ok, when I felt so lost & hopeless & despondent. But I made my way out of that hole, back to a stronger place, thanks to support from wonderful friends here and IRL, and things in my life have started to right themselves..

That turned out to be an extensive post; I guess you got me thinking!! Hey, I hope everything's alright with you.. lemme know if I can help with anything..

posted August 14, 2009 11:38 PM         

Back to Sun sign astrology:

The only time I see people denying Sun sign astrology is when they don't like what their Sun sign says about them. That's the most common scenario. It's the urge to say, "Oh, I'm not like that." A Virgo might say, "Oh, I'm not particularly tidy." Still, when people encounter you, and when they encounter other Virgos, they are able to see that there is a thread of commonality. This is the same thread of commonality they discovered thousands of years ago. People picking up those stupid sun sign books are still being amazed at how much they relate to their sun. I would imagine that it's those kind of simple astrology books that bring the curious into astrology.

My own way of getting interested in astrology had a lot to do with Love Signs actually. And that's a Sun sign compatibility book. Of course I read about Capricorns and related to my sign, but what shocked me was reading about Taurus, and thinking to myself, "This sounds a lot like my friend Mike." So I called Mike, and got his birthday. April 26th. Taurus. That was the parlor trick that got me into astrology. It would be too huge of a coincidence for all the people interested in astrology to have related with their Sun sign.

For every person who seems like an exception to part of their Sun sign stereotype, there are lots that aren't an exception to it. Usually the exceptions are caused by other factors in the chart, but still, I think, if you dig you'll find that Sun still at the head of the boardroom table. It may be being strangled by a zealous Moon or a heavy Saturn (or an Ascendant or chart ruler may be dominating the conversation), but it's still there trying to express itself in my opinion.

_______

I realize that this isn't the thrust of what you're saying. You like to advocate a more comprehensive look at the chart that doesn't pay any special attention to the Sun. That's perfectly fair, but if you are a subtle person not interested in trying to get every person's birth details I think/know you can glean something from Sun sign alone. You've got their Sun sign, their modality, their element, whether they're yin or yang/masculine or feminine. All of these elements are helpful in knowing who you're dealing with. (I figure it goes without saying that a Sun sign won't tell everything about a person.)

posted August 14, 2009 11:51 PM         

Nothing would ever stop me from pursuing a female whom I feel is the perfect one for me regardless what her sign or aspects or synastry may be, even if it doesn't work out I still feel that I learned something from the experience itself.

Thats all BS to me, in reality I enjoy being in a relation with someone who is the total opposite of me and work our differences from there.

Ef the synastry.

posted August 15, 2009 12:13 AM         

Sunshine, you're a sweetheart, and have been a TREMENDOUS help already to me already
And I completely agree with you 100% about the whole thing with figuring out dynamics... yes, this is why I love astrology so much. It's the depth of exploration which appeals to me, the illumination from certain things I see... that 'ahhhh!!' I feel when I learn something new. I love it.

What I don't love though, I guess, is the whole ISOLATION of aspects alone, the Aspects of Doom, or whatever. The cook book interpretations. The sun sign interpretation (yes, AG, I am responding to your post as well now too).... it feels all so boxed in and 'here, let me just stick you in this cage here' (Yeah, I'm mutable, I don't like to be caged. But you know what? Who the hell DOES?) I'm more interested in the gestalt of it all. The whole IS greater than the sum of its parts.

And also, AG, I get what you're saying about sun signs. But I think maybe you misunderstand me. All I am saying is that I view the whole Sun sign thing as dangerous ground at times to walk on, because all the sun sign does is say a single thing.
It's like me telling you that I like drawing.
That's all you're going to get.
You're not going to get if I'm any good at it.
Or even that I am an artist, or WANT to be one.
Or if I even have tried it LOL
Or if I am even talking about drawing pictures or drawing a damn gun out of my pocket
So, it's nothing more than a little statement to go on. And I hate it at times because it's like a brand, a freakin' advertisement. Anyone who knows me well knows that I don't wear clothes with logos because I don't like feeling like a walking billboard. The same thing applies to me when it comes to sun signs for me.

And also, when we talk about sun signs, I just wonder how well they are written. I do think mutables get the short end of the stick sometimes. But in theory, we ALL do. For instance, that whole Virgoan thing is such a monumental joke. I don't care how many of your friends are neat freaks. I'm not. I don't care how often they go through 'cleaning periods'... my Leo roommate with a Libra moon does the same thing. It's just so discriminating. I am not my sun sign. Check my screen name: MyVirgoMASK.

So I just want to point out that I am not burned out or tired of astrology. No, I love studying it, all the info is wonderful to learn.
It's again, though, the isolating language that sometimes really bothers me. A single thing will be taken out of context and elaborated on. And to me that is highly counter-productive. It's isolating. It's still a form of discrimination. Why do we do that? Why do we try to box in people?

Why can't we just study and look at the whole chart and look at all that's going on there like we look up at the sky on a lovely, clear night... when we notice ALL the stars in it, the way it all looks there...we never judge the skies. So similarly, I think we should never judge by single aspect, because there's so much more potential to us as people.

That's all.

posted August 15, 2009 12:47 AM         

well i study astrology for the fun of it, it's a hobby, has been for, oh, 16 years. and really have amazed myself with all that i've learned, through texts firstly, personal experience that -cannot- be discounted (looking at charts of those that i know the most) and through the astro insights of others on this board and similars.

posted August 15, 2009 01:11 AM         

I don't find it limiting, because I don't limit people to their sun sign (though I could empathize with anyone getting upset at a certain Sun sign, because they all have their weak points). Everyone's always free to do what they want, and if you're saying that people should ward off conforming to the boxes they're put in, I agree with you.

I've always fundamentally disagreed with the notion that astrology equals discrimination. We've turned to astrology in order to be discriminating. We've turned to astrology to learn these boxes and stereotypes. One person interprets that as a form of discrimination, and another looks at it as a method of knowing what they're dealing with.

posted August 15, 2009 02:16 AM         

Why would you think that person is a carpenter, an accountant, a priest, etc based on their sign, or what they represent... ?
See, it just doesn't work for me. Sometimes someone will have a secret calling. Sometimes you're completely wrong. I prefer to live in that world, because it's the world of , Eh, you never know. I just don't really think the way you do about this is all.

I prefer knowing the sun sign too, like you. But if no other info is available, as in the birth info with the times, then I prefer to not take the sign into consideration at all. That's where all that other stuff happens. The billboard talk. No. I won't have it. It's way too easy to do. It's seductive to create a persona on sun sign alone. Of course, if you like your sun sign, then maybe that's all peachy keen. But why would anyone be satisfied with some random brand which is placed on them ? Because it makes them look good? Ooh ok. So it's all about ego. My, but that does go against the spirit of learning anything new lol

I don't think astrology is discrimination. That's the equivalent of saying money is evil.
I'm just saying that people are capable of discriminating VERY easily, and often do without realizing. They DO discriminate on sun sign alone. Or through aspect. Or whatever.
And didn't you just do that to an extent, AG? Saying that someone's sun sign is going to help know who the carpenter, the artist, the accountant would be? However the quality of their work? You'd still 'know' what they are?

posted August 15, 2009 04:51 AM         

To discriminate can mean "to make a distinction in favor of or against a person or thing on the basis of the group, class, or category to which the person or thing belongs rather than according to actual merit; show partiality," but it also means "to note or observe a difference; distinguish accurately." The second definition is a positive one, and indicates good judgment.

I get that you're trying to establish that a person isn't inherently the embodiment of their Sun sign. Can they possibly be completely removed from their sun sign, though? That's the question. I don't think they are, not inherently.

Little side note: If the premise is accepted that people aren't inherently related to their Sun sign, then it stands to reason that they're not inherently related to any of their placements. You dislodge Sun sign astrology from astrology as a whole, and it seems to me the whole thing collapses, because the Sun in one of the most important planets in any chart. How can you throw it out without throwing everything else out?

posted August 15, 2009 09:15 AM         

Astrology is a tool and nothing more! It can only impact your life if you feel it has some control over you, which it does not. You have total control over your life. I should be an overly emotional person- Cancerian with Pisces moon and many other water planets, yet I'm very rational in my thoughts and emotionally balanced.

Use astrology for fun if you like, but know that the truth is not there. It is within you.

I have found that some of my delayed posts have been a result of using Safari. I try using Foxfire instead.

posted August 15, 2009 11:55 AM         

AG, I'm not trying to 'dislodge' anything,
because I'm not building on sun sign. I don't take it into account completely- I don't BUILD anything on it. Oh sure, there's some truth there sometimes, maybe, but it's not what I will base anything on... why should I? Because it's a sun and the essence? I don't consider it one of the most important pieces at all. And if I'm wrong, so be it, but I go by what works for me.
Maybe YOUR astro structure collapses if I talk about astrology without sun sign, but mine doesn't.

I think in this day and age, with how many approaches there are to astrology, we can afford to learn in whatever way we like, with or without sun sign. But what I cannot afford to do is go by a formula:
So-and-so is a fixed sun sign so therefor they will be set in their ways, or stubborn.
Well, dammit, maybe they're not.
Maybe with exceptions to their fixed sun sign, the rest of their chart is mutable and in the 12th house. In that case, the sun means squat. So are they still fixed then, AG? I suppose if YOU insist, then they'll always display that fixed quality

posted August 15, 2009 12:04 PM         

i don't discount astrology, but i don't take it as a fatalistic thing. everyone does what they will with their charts!