posted December 09, 2009 02:17 PM            

All my life I have been told I am a terrible liar. Of course I can lie, but I don't like to. It actually makes me physically ill--I sweat, my heart beats fast, my stomach hurts, my hands tremble, and emotionally I feel very guilty. Apparently I have a lot of tells that give me away, such as stammering, eyes widening, fidgeting, etc.

In addition to Mercury, which of course represents our thoughts and communication, I have found a few asteriods that may be related to the art of lying and persuasion:

490 -- Veritas ("Truth")
118 -- Peitho (Greek goddess of persuasion and charming speech)
69230 -- Hermes (Greek version of the Roman Mercury, god of cunning & skillful use of speech)

I'm sure there are more but let's start with these 3. My natal chart with them is below. I believe that my poor lying ability is shown with Veritas exact trine Mercury and Hermes exact square Mercury. Peitho is also exact square Saturn.

posted December 09, 2009 02:58 PM            

I can lie but I don't usually feel as though I have a reason to (if I did have a significant reason to lie, I would lie) - Sun in Aries, Merc/Jupiter in Pisces & Mars conjunct Neptune (they always pick on this aspect about being extra deceptive).

I love acting. I do it for fun. I have done it since high school. I could never think about a career in it because I don't see acting as work, I see it as a hobby. This isn't really lying though. It's lying when everyone knows you are lying LOL (but I guess it still counts)

Also, I have no appreciation of honesty for its own sake. I've explained this here:
http://www.linda-goodman.com/ubb/Forum25/HTML/000772.html

This was a quiz and a few of the questions were asking whether you are always honest or whether you believe honesty is always the best policy. I find it naive to believe this. I gave an example where a criminal would ask you where his next victim is (you know the victim's whereabouts and you know he is a criminal). Is it best to tell him or her?

But to make things more complicated, lets say that the victim in this case is actually the figurative "bad guy" and they have harmed several people including close family members of yours. The criminal is simply getting revenge. Is it best to tell him/her in this situation? lol

Basically - it's very difficult to argue that honesty is always the morally best policy. I think you have to use your discretion.

posted December 09, 2009 03:06 PM            

quote:

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It actually makes me physically ill--I sweat, my heart beats fast, my stomach hurts, my hands tremble, and emotionally I feel very guilty.

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This never happens to me. I only lie in situations where I believe it is perfectly ok for me to do so and I have no moral problems with it. As I said, we make choices in life and you have to use your discretion. Everyone has their own lines drawn in the sand and their own ideas about what is ok and what is not and how far you can take something.

Even if somehow I ended up in a situation where there was no way out. So in both my option A and my option B I simply have to lie (both of which I believe to be morally wrong situations to lie in) - and I absolutely have to pick either A or B...

I would then make a decision and I would stick by my decision.
Once I made the decision to lie, in that ^ context, I'd know that I am about to do something "wrong" and I'd psychologically "deal" with that beforehand.

posted December 09, 2009 03:08 PM            

Don't misunderstand me. I don't think that lying is necessarily bad. I'm certainly not on a moral high horse. One could find almost any circumstance where it can be beneficial. I just happen to suck at it--even when lying would benefit me, I find it a struggle. The only time I'm even halfway decent at it is when I have convinced myself to believe my lie.

I've always wondered why this was, why some people found it so easy to lie and some people like me were just horribly bad and obvious at it, and now that I'm looking at these astro placements the light bulb has come on.

posted December 09, 2009 03:21 PM            

My natal chart, but also the one of my brother and sister. Sister has a habit of some lying, while my brother lies and lies and lies.

Maybe he is Capricorn rising and not Aqua, who knows. I dont know what happened in life to make a person so evil.

Big liar.

posted December 09, 2009 03:34 PM            

I think your inability to lie is tied in to something psychological where you believe it is wrong for you to lie, hence your bodily reaction and your feelings of guilt.

It could be the fact that Mercury is close to your Jupiter and Saturn in Libra.. Libra is the sign of justice and having both Jup and Saturn there next to your Mercury.. you could have some strict ideas about honesty (maybe based on messages your parents gave you since Saturn represents the father-figure, but also "parents" in general)

I likewise have Mercury/Jupiter in the same sign (although not Saturn, or Pluto for that matter). But considering this sign is Pisces, my ideas about what goes and what does not are very fluid.

quote:

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love of role-playing, and highly emotional nature than an ability to "deceive" my audience though

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posted December 09, 2009 03:43 PM            

I'd like to look up the chart of a "famous liar" and check these placements. I'll do Richard Nixon shortly.

posted December 09, 2009 03:50 PM            

That's true about guilt. When I "believe my lie", then it becomes truth and thus no guilt. Like I said, that's the only time I'm even halfway successful.

posted December 09, 2009 04:45 PM            

I also looked at Bill Clinton and Susan Smith (mother who drowned her two boys and lied to the media and the nation about it for days). Susan's birth time is unknown so we can't determine her 12th house placements but she has Veritas closely square her Sun and Pluto and Peitho closely trine Veritas. Her Hermes is opposed to her Mercury. Neptune is highly strengthened as it is conjunct her natal Jupiter in Sagittarius.

Bill (who I like a lot) has no 12th house placements but he is fascinating. He has Peitho exact square his NN and closely square Uranus, both in Gemini. Hermes is closely conjunct Venus in Libra (smooth operator in love?). His Neptune is also afflicted by an exact conjunction with Mars.

Source: http://www.astro.com/astro-databank

Vapor,

quote:

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could be the fact that Mercury is close to your Jupiter and Saturn in Libra.. Libra is the sign of justice and having both Jup and Saturn there next to your Mercury.. you could have some strict ideas about honesty (maybe based on messages your parents gave you since Saturn represents the father-figure, but also "parents" in general)

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posted December 09, 2009 07:51 PM            

EX: A child steals $5 from his Mothers purse. The Mother notices the money missing, and asks child, "did you steal money from my purse?" Child responds, "No."
This is a lie of commission.

Same scenario, only the Mother does NOT notices the money missing, and the child never tell her.

We were taught the second was a greater sin.

So, I don't know, when you discuss liars, you need to consider different types. Maybe the ones who makes up wild stories, tell of events that never happened, etc.. would have Pisces or Gem placements.

posted December 09, 2009 09:05 PM            

He has 5 placements in the 12th house...Sun, Moon, Mercury, Venus, and NN are all there. He also has a terribly afflicted Neptune. All of his placements are very watery.

posted December 10, 2009 05:33 AM            

Sun/Merc/Vemus/Mars conjunct in Gemini. Squaring the moon in Pisces (moon trine Nep in Sco). Nep is the appex (is that how it's called?) of a Yod and it inconjuncts the stellium on the one hand and Saturn on the other. Capp asc.

Veritas conjunct SN in Libra which seems to point to a truthful person but no other aspects.

Peitho in Sag - no aspects except a sex to Veritas.

Hermes in Cap, first house, sex Nep and Moon, Squaring Sat, inconj Jup and the stellium.

posted December 10, 2009 12:08 PM            

Standouts among my associates...

Sun in Aries
Sun in Libra
Moon in Aries
Moon in Gemini

& persons with planets in your 12 & 7th houses.

Numerology of Lying

Born on the 7th, 16th, or lifepath of 7.

posted December 10, 2009 12:23 PM            

I disagree about the Aries placements though. My experiences with Aries have shown them to be brutally honest, almost to a fault. The ones I know are very straight-forward, to the point kind of people.

As far as Gemini, I'm not sure that I agree that too much Gemini can lead towards a deceptive nature. I think being Mercurial makes them fabulous, charming communicators...the best in the zodiac. If they WANT to lie they are probably very good at it.

posted December 10, 2009 03:14 PM            

quote:

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In school I used to swindle / lie a bit, when I felt I needed a time out, so I was telling that I was feeling dizzy or having a headache or something like this.

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lol.. well i have the mars conjunct neptune on DC (and sextile Jupiter in Pisces)

This was not "a bit" in my case - it was quite chronic and I always got away with it.
I never felt guilty. From my perspective the school is a "system". It's not personal. I did abide by the rules I agreed with (the ones that actually had a practical purpose, as opposed to the ones enforced due to social expectation)