posted March 09, 2010 03:15 AM         

First of all I have to say.. the over-the-top sexual responsiveness in hetero male homo sapiens to the site of a naked (or half-naked) female homo sapien.. .. is a pretty bizarre by-product of our society and our norms (norms that primarily originate in religious dogmas in my opinion).

Here are some examples of mamals living outside this dogma:

posted March 09, 2010 03:21 AM         

To entice and then deny seems sadistic to me in the same way that telling a kid there is a huge chocolate cake waiting for him/her in the fridge - and then deciding they can't have it last minute -- is also sadistic.

posted March 09, 2010 03:22 AM         

The whole matter came up on another thread and I wanted to discuss it here..

posted March 09, 2010 03:25 AM         

I agree with you, Vapor. I lov the pics too, because they show sexuality and nakedness in a NATURAL way. But it's also showing people being naked in a way which is not MEANT to illicit sexual interest. Meaning that there is no posturing. There's no posing. It's just the naked body there, hanging out like my hand as I take your hand to shake it.

posted March 09, 2010 03:28 AM         

We're on the same page then. I agree 100% with you.
A lot of times as well someone will entice deliberately as a means for attention out of insecurity and then wonder why they got the reaction they did...that's just naive.

posted March 09, 2010 03:30 AM         

**edit** I lied, I'll give some of my two cents while I'm still half awake.

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I think there is a difference between showing skin.. *and* expressively sexually enticing.

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Yep, and the pictures are good examples of how that happens across cultural spectrums.

And yes, I do agree that there are people who are purposely what we'd call 'teases' and that type of behavior is just plain stupid. However, I think the argument that keeps reoccuring here over and over again is that people who get raped are such folks who 'enticed' the rapist and then denied him when that's not even the scenario in the majority of rape cases. So why should the victim become responsible?

I don't know, if I'm not making sense its because we went soooo off topic in a thread that was really about criminal negligence. :\

posted March 09, 2010 03:32 AM         

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A naked body to me is not synonymous with sex at all lol.

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That is the way I feel exactly!

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If someone can ogle the above pictures and find them sexually provocative, then I can't really say anything.

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lol Yes - Like I said.. I think this is a product of our society as it is today - what it has become.
Maybe it's part of consumerism.. Maybe keeping the body taboo and illicit.. makes sex more fascinating - more in demand.. it feeds the porn industry lol

I mean I couldn't really imagine a porn industry functioning - if it was OK for everyone to walk around naked.. and people were very much used to it.

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I guess the bottom line of what I am trying to say is... just be responsible and know your own boundaries

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posted March 09, 2010 03:41 AM         

I'd like that to be honest lol

posted March 09, 2010 03:45 AM         

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And yes, I do agree that there are people who are purposely what we'd call 'teases' and that type of behavior is just plain stupid. However, I think the argument that keeps reoccuring here over and over again is that people who get raped are such folks who 'enticed' the rapist and then denied him when that's not even the scenario in the majority of rape cases. So why should the victim become responsible?

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Right. The victims already seem to feel a huge amount of shame - even if they did nothing to tease the rapist. I've never been raped (but I've been physically assaulted in another way). I mentioned a personal situation (related to my mother) in the other thread. *edited.

There was something else that came to mind, but it's gone. I probably won't have anything more to say - I understand both sides of the argument.

posted March 09, 2010 03:55 AM         

Teasel - thanks for making me realize I completely omitted mentioning rape again lol.. *eyes shutting as I type*

So OK - whilst I think it is sadistic for a person to entice and then deny..
I don't think their sadism entitles the other person to act in a violent manner towards them. But there is an element of "guilt" there on the sadist-person's part (if the behaviour was intentional - Teasel in your examples it was unintentional.. so I don't feel the same way about it).

posted March 09, 2010 04:26 AM         

There is a man with his family on the beach.. and some nude men in the nude-beach-run.

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To make this thread Astro 2.0-compliant, I am a Scorpio sun. :P

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posted March 09, 2010 10:55 AM         

Even mittens and coal for eyes.

How in the world am I responsible for that man's insanity?

I agree with the premise that both men and women are responsible for the way they express their sexuality. If a man touches a woman w/o her consent, he can't be surprised when she calls that assault. If a woman is deliberately acting sexual, she can't be surprised when a man becomes sexually aroused.

But what about the sexuality inherent in our female-ness? The way we move, our shape, our voice and smell? We can't erase all that.

I talked about my friend's dad who attacked me. I was wearing shorts and a tank top over a bikini because it was a pool party. Provocative clothing but appropriate for the environment. To him, I was "making him crazy." To me, I was being myself.

Most men out there raping women aren't raping women who flirted shamelessly and then got coy and said, "Can't have it!" They're men who interpreted typical, normal female behavior as arousing and then decided consent doesn't matter.

posted March 09, 2010 11:38 AM         

looking at these pictures i couldn't help thinking that most of them are not provocative because of the subjects and the condition of the bodies!

without being salacious at all i would say the young woman in the centre of the 2nd post there is by anyone's lights absolutely stunning, and would probably cause arousal in a lot of healthy males!

in fact when at a public pool or sauna (or since i am a masseuse in my work) i see many many bodies that are definite TURNOFFS when naked who might get away with a lot more when at least partially covered!!

i also see a lot of people who are concerned at the lack of "perfection" in their bodies who really are quite lovely - while being outside the hollywood/madi avenue ideals pushed at us.

posted March 09, 2010 11:45 AM         

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Unfortunately rape is unavoidable once someone CHOOSES to rape you, not the other way around. And it doesnt matter what youre wearing. Men are supposedly rational beings (sorry im reading a lot of aristotle for poli theory), yet in this rape culture they apparently lose all rational thought and behave like animals at the sight of some leg or cleavage? Give me a break.

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We're all a mix of base desires, rationality, imagination, and spirituality.

posted March 09, 2010 11:54 AM         

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Most men out there raping women aren't raping women who flirted shamelessly and then got coy and said, "Can't have it!" They're men who interpreted typical, normal female behavior as arousing and then decided consent doesn't matter.

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That's exactly what I was saying in my first post. Its like 'oh, so you found her wearing a teeny-tiny dress at the bar/club?'. Well no sh%t, Sherlock....the majority of women are dressed that way in that scenario and therefore it still falls under the realm of appropriate behavior for that setting.

I'm sorry, I'm just so sick of the notion that people ask for this sh%t.

posted March 09, 2010 12:46 PM         

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looking at these pictures i couldn't help thinking that most of them are not provocative because of the subjects and the condition of the bodies!

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Really? Cuz I found the lion really hot.

Man, I can't wait to rape that lion...

BM -

Yeah, I'm way past sick of it too. The rule can't be that a woman consents to sex if she arouses men. She consents to sex if she consents to sex.

If "man's arousal" = "woman's consent" then...

A. A woman must restrict her self-expression to only those things that don't turn on men. Bring on the hair curlers and fashionable moo moos!

B. There could be no such thing as relationship levels and development. Flirt -> sex, always.

C. There could be no erotic art. Do it and you're promising to put out for anyone who found it arousing.

posted March 09, 2010 01:25 PM         

jane i am a sucker for a lion too...i was just pointing out that some of those bodies would look much better covered up!! not suggesting that beautiful people are flaunting it.

posted March 09, 2010 02:35 PM         

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unfortunately covering women up has NEVER historically made a blind bit of difference in the rape scenario. women are targetted in every cultural, maybe even more so in those where women are coerced into head-to-toe concealment!

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That's a bingo! ("Inglorious B@stards" reference.)

Ultimately there is no inhibiting men's (and women's) arousal. Our sex drive will be there regardless of how we dress or interact socially. If we follow the rule that a woman is primarily responsible for rape so must not arouse in order to avoid it, we don't stop rape. All we really do is restrict our culture and the ease and freedom with which the sexes relate.

If a man views a woman as an autonomous being with her own will, he'll care if she consents. He'll collaborate with her as a fellow human being. If he views her as something less than him, then he won't. He'll take whatever he wants.

I also have to say that I find the mythic seductress that rape apologists mention quite amusing. (No one in this thread.) Like rape is caused by cunning teases, deliberately bringing men to the point where lust overpowers them. For what? Power? I don't know about you guys, but when I think of the sexual abuse that happened in my life and the lives of the people around me, the situations...
1. Involved roofies
2. Were authority figures taking advantage of their position of trust
3. Were incestuous
Not a tease among them.

posted March 09, 2010 02:56 PM         

and you all know, i am not one to put up with a lot of crap, if someone grabbed me in a bar, i would slap the **** out of them so fast thier head would spin off. my rationing, a bar full of people are not going to let some guy kick my ass. so if i walked by a pool table and some guy "accidently" ran his hand over my ass, i turn around and slap him, good and hard.

lots of men treat women as objects to do with what they will, and lots of women foster that behavior by not respecting themselves enough to say, stop it jerkface. not acceptable. take a hike dude. not interested.

guys have no problem saying what they feel, women need to learn how to stand up for themselves. period. it isnt being mean, it is setting boundries.

we are the weakeer sex beacuse we choose to be. when we claim our power, like a man claims his power, and quit being so dam accomodating to those that wear ball sacks, it will stop.

then maybe we can wear makeup and fix our hair and not havce to worry about unwanted creepziod attention. which we should be able to anyway, but my experience has been, the prettier i look, the worse they act. f-ers.

embrace your lilith.