posted March 09, 2010 04:12 PM         

seriously, someone risked someones health and life, and she was worried about hurting his "feelings"

gimme a break. jane your friends dad should have been slapped silly on the spot too.

why do women think less of themselves than someone who doesnt even care one bit about them?

why isnt the first thought, who the hell do you think you are.?

jane is right about a lot of things, very true.

but women as a whole need to stop accepting less than honorable behavior, unless lara is right and man are just primal animals that need to be caged, and i got the only domesticated one.

posted March 09, 2010 04:18 PM         

quote:

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lots of men treat women as objects to do with what they will, and lots of women foster that behavior by not respecting themselves enough to say, stop it jerkface. not acceptable. take a hike dude. not interested.

guys have no problem saying what they feel, women need to learn how to stand up for themselves. period. it isnt being mean, it is setting boundries.

we are the weakeer sex beacuse we choose to be. when we claim our power, like a man claims his power, and quit being so dam accomodating to those that wear ball sacks, it will stop.

then maybe we can wear makeup and fix our hair and not havce to worry about unwanted creepziod attention. which we should be able to anyway, but my experience has been, the prettier i look, the worse they act. f-ers.

embrace your lilith.

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Well said!

The part in bold. I don't think it's enough for us to claim our power. Men need to recognize and honor that too.

posted March 09, 2010 04:22 PM         

I wish I did hit him. The moment shocked me. I thought he was someone I could trust. I immediately pulled away from him and told him to stop.

I'm not really the violent type though. What I wanted was for him to see that he was wrong and to never treat a woman like that again. He even told his daugher (my friend) about it before I could because he didn't realize how out of line he was! He's changed from this, and so have I. And that's what we both needed.

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why isnt the first thought, who the hell do you think you are.?

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posted March 09, 2010 05:28 PM         

i am glad you got that straightned out. i have been in enough uncomfortable similar situations, until i said, NO MORE EVER AGAIN.

until i can say, look ashhole, how bout we go tell your brother, wife, son, friend...what you just did? with a hefty push into a wall. they outweigh us, but so what. intimidation is part of the game of the inappropriate gropers of the world.

so since some women send mixed messages, by letting it happen over and over again, guys , well, primal guys that don't control themselves..need to get YOUR message loud and clear, then they will think twice about rubbing thier boner on the next random chick with a nice round butt.

we as individuals have to draw the line for ourselves.

and mickeys in drinks aside of course. those individuals need to be prosecuted and jailed.

i can only control me, so i can only define how i am to be treated. and i made a decision some time ago, that no one ..no man..will ever disrespect me again.

posted March 09, 2010 05:56 PM         

I am flattered ...you're not so bad yourself, Edgar

As for this :
"...as long as there are certain women who mistake thier sexuality for thier power, and think giving them a boner gives the woman the power, it will have to happen on an individual basis."

posted March 09, 2010 06:00 PM         

I sometimes feel I am too nice because I am compassionate and feel like I can understand some of the darker drives. Of course this doesn't mean I condone someone being a total prick, but I still can understand the drive.
I wish I were the type to kick a guy in the balls and be done with it. But I'm more the type to draw his darkness out of him, then make him hate himself for it

posted March 09, 2010 06:06 PM         

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I was wearing shorts and a tank top over a bikini because it was a pool party. Provocative clothing but appropriate for the environment. To him, I was "making him crazy." To me, I was being myself.

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That's something I find outrageously idiotic.

That some people can't be around other naked people, or partially naked people - and they associate the naked body with something sexual.. regardless of the context.

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Do we really want to live in a world with absolutely no flirtation? No clothing that flatters a woman's body?

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Exactly!

quote:

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Most men out there raping women aren't raping women who flirted shamelessly and then got coy and said, "Can't have it!" They're men who interpreted typical, normal female behavior as arousing and then decided consent doesn't matter.

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I agree. Most rapists know their victim previously.. in whatever setting - it could be work, family, friends etc.. There is at least a relationship of acquaintance usually.

I guess people have this Hollywood rape in mind where they picture a girl dancing and rubbing up against a stranger in a club, kissing him - doing everything to show sexual interest and then denying him sex.. intentionally - for an ego-boost..

Which is not at all what happens in 99% of cases.

But even in those situations where it is done intentionally (for one's own ego gratification - or purely because they enjoy being sadistic) - this behaviour still does not at all entitle the "actor" to become physically abusive.

I was a bit tired typing on this yesterday so I wasn't very clear or careful lol

People play! It's fun! That's normal - everyone does that. It's playful to tease and entice and if it is a mutual back and forth - and everyone's happy - then great.

But I can't ignore the ones who do it for sadistic or egotistical reasons (both male & female) because I've encountered my share - courtesy of my Venus - Pluto.. so even though I don't believe these people "ask for" abuse or "deserve" abuse for their behaviour.. I do believe the behaviour is - bad news - and I guess it doesn't surprise me when it draws negative reactions.

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Both sexes are responsible, but if we put an unfair responsibility on the part of the woman as attractor, then we're minimizing the man's responsibility as actor.

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True! I agree.

quote:

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The more we emphasize the woman's responsibility and minimize the man's, the more we limit what type of behavior and clothing we accept as "safe."

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When it comes to clothing.. I would say "the more we sexualize the woman's body".. the more we limit what clothing we accept as safe.

Because men can wear considerably less clothing in just about any setting.. and this is not considered anti-social or "against the grain".

I guess men are not considered the attractor.. which is bull since both men and women can be the actor and the attractor.. but a great majority of porn has a female (or several) as the star/s. There is way too much sexualisation of the female body - while the opposite happens with the male body.. In a sense it is de-sexualized.

Amowls,

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The short skirts = rape thing is so effing heinous i dont even know where to begin. I suppose its more comforting for other women to believe that a woman was raped because she made some "mistakes" and smart women avoid those mistakes and cant be raped! Unfortunately rape is unavoidable once someone CHOOSES to rape you, not the other way around.

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Very well said!

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Men are supposedly rational beings (sorry im reading a lot of aristotle for poli theory), yet in this rape culture they apparently lose all rational thought and behave like animals at the sight of some leg or cleavage?

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I get what you are saying.. but my point was that they do not behave like animals. Animals are around each other naked 24/7 - and they do not have sex 24/7.

In one of the pics there is a male lion lying down sleeping with two female lions.. and no one is raping anyone.

Katatonic,

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i would say the young woman in the centre of the 2nd post there is by anyone's lights absolutely stunning, and would probably cause arousal in a lot of healthy males!

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I agree that she is stunning.. But I do not believe she would cause more or less arousal in virtue of being half-naked.

What I mean by that is.. in THEIR culture - it is fine to dress in that manner.. so the men are used to seeing that daily. For that reason - I really couldn't imagine one of those men (like the two guys you can sort of spot behind her).. saying "oh .. well.. I wanted to rape her.. because she just isn't wearing enough clothing".

That is the same in nudist colonies.. for example.. I've read about this and people get very used to be around each other naked, so they do not experience any more sexual attraction than they would clothed.

Because lets face it - our bodies - are just that.. BODIES (animal bodies). They are not sexual tools.. *only*

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unfortunately covering women up has NEVER historically made a blind bit of difference in the rape scenario. women are targetted in every cultural, maybe even more so in those where women are coerced into head-to-toe concealment!

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That's completely true!

I would personally venture to say that the exact opposite happens. The more covered up people are.. the more tension builds.

I don't think there have been too many studies into this.. But I'd love to somehow test my theory.

Cpn –

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and you all know, i am not one to put up with a lot of crap, if someone grabbed me in a bar, i would slap the **** out of them so fast thier head would spin off.

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LOL

Hehehe

I you CPN

quote:

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lots of men treat women as objects to do with what they will, and lots of women foster that behavior by not respecting themselves enough to say, stop it jerkface. not acceptable. take a hike dude. not interested.
guys have no problem saying what they feel, women need to learn how to stand up for themselves. period. it isnt being mean, it is setting boundries.
we are the weakeer sex beacuse we choose to be. when we claim our power, like a man claims his power, and quit being so dam accomodating to those that wear ball sacks, it will stop.
then maybe we can wear makeup and fix our hair and not havce to worry about unwanted creepziod attention. which we should be able to anyway, but my experience has been, the prettier i look, the worse they act. f-ers.

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Big thumbsup for that!

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MVM - if you walked around naked all the time, i would consider becoming bi...y

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Me and you both lol

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Unless lara is right and man are just primal animals that need to be caged, and i got the only domesticated one.

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I have to point this out - as I did to amowls.

Animals are around each other naked 24-7 and they do not have sex 24-7.

Rape does occur in the animal kingdom.. I have never read statistics about it..but I doubt it occurs more frequently then it would in our world.

I wanted to post those pics – purely to say.. well OK then BE an ANIMAL!
Animals don't behave this way - purely because they are next to a naked member of the same species.

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primal guys that don't control themselves

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But - they're NOT flipping primal. That's my problem.

If they were primal.. they could lie down and sleep next to me and another naked woman.. as the lion does in that PHOTO.

They could do it down the street, in public.. and it shouldn't be a problem.

quote:

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and mickeys in drinks aside of course. those individuals need to be prosecuted and jailed.

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posted March 09, 2010 06:26 PM         

I can see were genders are concerned, its sort of true that women do not act as primal as men do but we are somewhat emotional creatures which can be just as troubling..

I guess for example those teachers that carried on intimant relationships with their students, getting emotionally attached is just about as scary a male teacher having sex with a female student for me..

posted March 09, 2010 06:29 PM         

*editing out a little personal stuff. I'm sleepy, and rambling.

quote:

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Most men out there raping women aren't raping women who flirted shamelessly and then got coy and said, "Can't have it!" They're men who interpreted typical, normal female behavior as arousing and then decided consent doesn't matter.

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quote:

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Also, do we really want to live in a world with absolutely no flirtation? No clothing that flatters a woman's body? Isn't there a safe middle ground of playfulness and fun, where men and women can enjoy one another? Both sexes are responsible, but if we put an unfair responsibility on the part of the woman as attractor, then we're minimizing the man's responsibility as actor. The more we emphasize the woman's responsibility and minimize the man's, the more we limit what type of behavior and clothing we accept as "safe."

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This is what had me pacing this morning... but you say it so much better than I do, when I try.

quote:

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Unfortunately rape is unavoidable once someone CHOOSES to rape you, not the other way around. And it doesnt matter what youre wearing. Men are supposedly rational beings (sorry im reading a lot of aristotle for poli theory), yet in this rape culture they apparently lose all rational thought and behave like animals at the sight of some leg or cleavage? Give me a break.

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posted March 09, 2010 06:34 PM         

quote:

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The rule can't be that a woman consents to sex if she arouses men. She consents to sex if she consents to sex.

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posted March 09, 2010 06:59 PM         

like i tell my kids, everybody needs to keep thier hands to thierself.

i wouldnt even hurt a spider, let alone a person, but..but...i will defend myself in a heartbeat...and yes, i would smack a guy good and hard who wants to play grab ass uninvited.

and teasel - i know what you are saying, i have even had guys say to if you arent gonna show them why did you bring them? seriously? dude.

posted March 09, 2010 07:13 PM         

In my studies, I have noticed young men who get abused by women are less likely to report it.

posted March 09, 2010 07:26 PM         

not as much as men when it comes to intimidating for sex and inappropriate touching.

posted March 09, 2010 08:34 PM         

Sure, some women proactively draw attention upon themselves and one might say they were asking for it. However from my own experiences & understanding regarding sexual abuse,...it's a power/control issue where someone wants AND thinks they could get away with it.

My mom was raped twice when she was a child, age 5 by a family friend...and age 10 by her elementary school teacher. Children in general dont even know what sex is, let alone going around seducing pedophiles. She was a very attractive child & adult, & always garnered attention even though she's hardcore conservative. She's in her 50's now but she's still super traumatized by it. I think that may be a reason why she never wore makeup her whole life (except on her wedding day). Also I despised the fact she'd never let me wear tanktops during full blown summer heat. Anyways, it would just be unfair to assume most women who get raped, proactively seduce/entice.

posted March 10, 2010 09:57 AM         

Even before the incident with my friend's dad, I was right with you about how to handle gropers. It was a black and white issue for me, one where they were clearly in the wrong. So I'd do whatever it took to stop them. Death stares, slap away hands, elbow them. I even choked an acquaintance in what may have been an overreaction. I'm not usually drawn to violence as punishment because it doesn't satisfy my anger - my rage wants to transform from the inside out. (Pluto in the 12th - yay, astro content!) But I'm all for getting physical in self-defense, if need be. My Scorpio Asc and Cap Venus have had me casing out my environment for a long time now, doing what I have to do to avoid and stop harassment.

What has changed for me isn't how I handle the black and white cases, but how I handle all the gray areas. Where I went wrong with my friend's dad was when he picked me up from the airport, gave me an appreciative once over, and complimented how I looked. That set the tone for the rest of our time together. Right then I should've told him to be less flirtatious, since I didn't really want us to relate like that. But instead of keeping things simple and expressing what I wanted, I considered other factors (our history, his pov) and decided that based on all that, he wasn't out of line. So I just went with it.

That's where I've changed. Now, the answer I find and express first is to the question "Do I want this?" So simple yet I didn't really get it until all this! It feels really good to be this clear and light. I was often burdening myself with considerations that don't really matter. Now with that part of myself, I feel like this:

quote:

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i have been in enough uncomfortable similar situations, until i said, NO MORE EVER AGAIN.

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If I'd been honest about what I wanted, not only would I have had the joy of that light, fresh feeling , but I would've stopped him from misinterpreting me. And in his own reaction, I would've realized how I was misinterpreting him.

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until i can say, look ashhole, how bout we go tell your brother, wife, son, friend...what you just did? with a hefty push into a wall. they outweigh us, but so what. intimidation is part of the game of the inappropriate gropers of the world.

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posted March 10, 2010 10:07 AM         

He didn't because he believes rape is wrong. He fancies himself a feminist, actually! His own daughter was raped, and he was her only familial support in getting the man (her maternal grandfather) prosecuted.

To him, the way he behaved with me was nothing like rape. It was him making a move. Sloppy because of a couple margaritas and a deadline: he knew my SO was coming into town the next day. I'd then be at a hotel and not the same house with him. It was now or never, to him. In his mind we'd had a long flirtation and he assumed that I had the same attitude towards casual sex as he did. All untrue, but I was complicit in him being so off since I wasn't clear with him about how I viewed him.

After, he slowly started to see that touching me like that was inappropriate. The light went on when I called him a week later and told him how much it had disturbed me and demanded an apology. It glared after his own daughter told him how outraged she was by it.

He doesn't think of himself as some creepy guy taking advantage of women. He doesn't want to be that guy. So now, perhaps he will be more careful about determining whether his groping is really wanted, and will add the unwanted variety to the same "unacceptable" category in which he keeps rape.