posted June 25, 2010 11:46 AM         

Izo

thank yyou for that! im so lazy to do the calculations at hand...i remember that it was you in the 1st place who discovered this calculator,years ago to calculate the draconic too before we knew that it was avaiable on astro.

So i also saw the 2nd chart of mine:max orb 2š

my 2nd - to John natal

My Sun cj his sun
My Venus cj his Venus & Proserpina
My jupiter cj his Juno/Jonnhy
My Uranus cj his Isis/Osiris
My AntiVeretx cj his Jupiter
My Child cj his ASC & opose Persephone
mY aLMA opose his Neptune

My 2nd - John+s 2nd

Sun cj his vx
my sun opose his Valentine
My Venus cj his Mars & Ceres &Bless
My Neptune cj his dsc
My NN cj his Venus
My ANGEL cj his AURA

His 2nd to my natal

his sun cj my adorea/union/destinn
his moon cj my felicitas
his venus cj my Boda
His Mars cj my mcercury
his jupiter cj my sun
his Pluto cj my fortuna
his NN cj my POM
His vertex cj my ASC
His Child opose my union/destinn/adorea
His karma cj my Anna & opose sun
His Alma cj my uranus
his Angel opose my Venus & Atlantis
His Valentine cj my DSC
his IC cj my valentine/mars/
his felicitas cj my Venus

posted June 25, 2010 11:52 AM         

Funny though, Jude Law`s secondary Venus is almost exactly conjunct my secondary Mars in Scorpio, too. But that is beside the point.

posted June 25, 2010 11:55 AM         

hmmm i think me and JOnnhy reach that duality very well together but as for myself,im unbalanced..

i m much more ying than yang,i actually have some difficulty to put in practice the masculine energies...but JOhn helps me on that too.

posted June 25, 2010 12:05 PM         

that is very accurate. i look at him and see all the nice qualities that i appreciate in men: stregh,courage,determination,self-confidence,attraction

posted June 25, 2010 12:19 PM         

I wonder if the secondary chart may be a little bit like the Helio-chart. Just that it does maybe not display the HIGHER Self, but the Self. Do you know what I mean?

Maybe like some form of "bridge" between the physical living here on earth with our instincts as the tropical shows and the Higher Self in a spiritual sphere. And the secondary chart may signify our Self / Spirit in a very "every-day-life-sense".

It also participates in both "chart-calculations".
It is anchored in the tropical zodiac (that is the part that is connected to the instinctual living on earth) and it also has SOLAR symbolism (like the Helio chart has, too; just that the Helio chart is its OWN zodiac).

Does that make sense? Or am I babbling here?

But if that is true, no chartinterpretation would be complete without including the secondary chart, too.

1. tropical chart:
physical manifestation of our instincts and life

2. Draco chart:
past life experiences and soul contracts, stemming from the path and leading into the future

3. Secondary chart (for some reason my mind insists on calling this Solar Chart, even though I know that a Solar chart is something different):
our pure, conscious, Self

4. Heliocentric chart:
Higher Self chart, super-consciousness

posted June 25, 2010 12:25 PM         

But i though,reading iqīs description,that the secondary was to do with our Soulīs description,after we "awoke" to the spiritual side of life.

so..isnt that more spiritual than rather,earthy-like?

but....what you said makes sense cause if it is based on the tropical too & sun,those dont have to do with "spirit" but with this 3rdDimension we live in.

So,it is the chart of our souls,after we awoke inside,and looked inward,but it is see and acted upon,in our everyday life then.

like we detactched more from the Egoic/materialism,but since we live here in this EARTH,the chart shows the way we deal with it,but more aware of our own strengh and potencialities as an eternal being.

posted June 25, 2010 12:37 PM         

yes, that is the real difficulty, how to differentiate it from the tropical. I am not completely sure about this, just juggling some thoughts.
But I am sure there are, maybe subtle differences, because the secondary chart IS NOT the tropical one, and therefore I donīt think it signifies EXACTLY the same.

Diandra,

I actually don`t like to separate the earthly experiences from the spiritual ones. As I think the spiritual is very much part of our Selves on earth, too.
So, for me the secondary chart is BOTH actually; it is the expression of Spirit within our physical bodies.

Oh one more thought, since the secondary chart existed from the moment we drew our first breath on earth, I think it is ALWAYS active, for EVERYONE, no matter if awoken or not.
BUT the difference maybe is, that those who have opened to a spiritual approach to life, may be expressing the secondary placements more CONSCIOUSLY, whereas for others it may be more subconscious, yet, I think, it may still be strong.

Also, synastry might lead a pathway to growing awareness, as people might see this, our spiritual self, and in some way make us become more conscious about our own spiritual Self.

posted June 25, 2010 12:44 PM         

someway this one must be a bit more spiritual then?

as we are all spirits living in this earth,youīre right that this continues to be linked to the earthy experience...

but.since this one is the shadow chart,i see this one as reflecting ourselves,but at a more aware state,or letīs say with a differente perspective and approach to life.

life for instance,before i started lookin inward.to change my outside experiences,i was only living by my tropical.But once i started to discover myself in a deepest way.a more truthfull version of me,awoke.so now i must be living with this new chart,reflecting this one to the outside world.

posted June 25, 2010 04:02 PM         

his secondary KAALI cj my tropical sun 0'
his secondary MOON opp my tropical KAALI 0'
my secondary KAALI opp his tropical telephus 0'

posted June 25, 2010 04:05 PM         

the one with Jude (which I always feel compelled to check)
---------------------------------------

BASIC aspects

my sec Sun conjunct his ASC
my sec Sun conjunct his Neptune exact
his sec Sun conjunct my ASC
his sec Sun conjunct my Neptune exact
his sec Valentine conjunct my DESC
his sec Valentine conjunct my SN

my sec Sun conjunct his sec Sun
my sec Sun opposite his sec Valentine exact
my sec ASC conjunct his sec Venus
my sec DESC conjunct his sec Saturn exact
my sec True Node conjunct his sec Karma
my sec Venus conjunct his sec True Node
my sec Valentine conjunct his sec ASC (3 degrees)
my sec Amor conjunct his sec ASC

OTHER aspects:
my sec Amor conjunct his Psyche (3)
my sec Mars conjunct his sec Venus exact
his sec Eros conjunct my Psyche

my sec Venus opposite his Saturn
my sec Venus conjunct his Karma (3)
my sec Pluto opposite his Eros exact
my sec Valentine conjunct his Psyche

my sec Venus conjunct his sec Jupiter
my sec Mars opposite his sec Saturn
my sec VAlentine conjunct his sec Neptune exact
my sec Jupiter conjunct his sec Eros exact
my sec Uranus conjunct his sec Psyche exact
my sec Neptune conjunct his sec Karma
my sec Amor conjunct his sec Venus

posted June 25, 2010 04:12 PM         

BASIC aspects
--------------

my sec ASC conjunct his Valentine exact
my sec True Node conjunct his Valentine
my sec Moon conjunct his Venus
my sec Moon opposite his Juno
my sec Saturn opposite his Sun
my sec Saturn opposite his Moon exact
my sec Pluto conjunct his DESC (3)

his sec ASC conjunct my Karma (3)
his sec True Node conjunct my Valentine exact
his sec Mars conjunct my ASC exact
his sec Valentine conjunct my Moon
his sec Jupiter conjunct my ASC
his sec Amor conjunct my ASC
his sec Karma conjunct my Sun (3)

my sec Sun conjunct his sec Mars exact
my sec Sun conjunct his sec Jupiter
my sec Sun conjunct his sec Amor
my sec SN conjunct his sec Psyche exact
my sec Venus opposite his sec DESC
my sec Karma conjunct his sec SN exact

OTHER aspects
--------------
my sec Venus conjunct his Neptune
my sec Neptune conjunct his VAlentine

posted June 26, 2010 12:15 AM         

Off topic: Diandra, I recently discovered I have a secret admiror that's born a day after you and *might* have Libra Asc as well. And while I checked the synastry with him, I realized you and me have a similar one, such a nice synastry, though it is not a surprise.

posted June 26, 2010 12:18 AM         

Link to some of Tobey's work, including secondary chart. Enjoy!

posted June 26, 2010 04:11 AM         

I know these lessons by Tobey, which are very informative. But I was a bit disappointed about what he wrote about secondary chart, as he didn`t know how to interprete it either.

Racole,

so the arc of your NN to Aries point is the same as the arc of your ASC to your Sun, this seems pretty significant to me, even though I donīt really know what that means.
But it may put more emphasis on the Draconic / secondary positions and aspects as in other cases, maybe.

Diandra,

can you give me John`s birthdetails again? I want to check something.

Lara,

posted June 26, 2010 04:35 AM         

I highlight the sentences, that resonated the most with me.

"The Arabic Chart
Being true to yourself
Every human being is intended to have a character of his own;
to be what no others are, and to do what no other can do.
- William Ellery Channing

We often find our greatest joy when we feel that we are truly expressing ourselves and using our own unique talents and creativity. Then what we do captivates our whole attention, we feel that we are expressing our deepest soul. At its best we do something that fits so well with our unique abilities that no one else could do the job equally well which, of course, means that we experience a feeling of having found our own thing, that unique place that gives us a change to make a contribution to lives of others as well.

A horoscope describes the role we have in life, which is not always what we feel we should and could do, if we only found a way to use all our talents. For instance the Sun in square or in opposition to the Ascendant may indicate a conflict between the role we have and our deeper self. We may feel fated to do, for instance with Virgo Ascendant, all the routine jobs around because of our innate willingness to serve, yet our Sun in Leo might long for an ability to use our creative performing talents. Such cases are frustrating for the person, but they also mean a loss for everyone, the world may not get our creative Leonian contribution.

"The weakest among us has a gift, however seemingly trivial, which is peculiar to him, which worthily used, will be a gift to his race forever." (John Ruskin). If the birth-chart doesn't show our special gifts, the so-called Secondary Chart, well known to ancient astrologers and developed by the late Carl Payne Tobey, may show them. Here the chart is called The Arabic Chart because it's based on the Arabic parts; "the secondary chart" could easily be mixed up with secondary progressions.

The Arabic chart uses Arabic Parts based on the relationship between the Sun and the Ascendant. Tobey used equal houses, but you can use any house system. The Arabic Parts are generated by combining longitudes of planets and angles according to the general formula:

ASC + X - Y

Thus for instance the familiar Part of Fortune is

the Ascendant + the Moon - the Sun

The formula is similar for all the planets and also for the Sun and the angles, just replace the Moon in the formula by the corresponding planet or point.

There is even a simpler way: Just measure the distance between the Sun and the Ascendant. Measuring this arc to the opposite direction from the Ascendant you'll get the Arabic Ascendant. In other words if the Sun is 15 degrees below the Ascendant, the Arabic Ascendant is 15 degrees above the Radix Ascendant. Then just move all the planets and points, including the house cusps, in the same way = using the arc between the Sun and the Ascendant and the same direction (clockwise or counter-clockwise) you used to get the Arabic Ascendant. That's all.

About the Interpretation
According to Tobey ( Astrology of Inner Space, Omen Press, 1972) there is no difference between the Radix and the Arabic Chart, they are interpreted in a similar way. Shirley Lyons Meier (in Spiritual, Metaphysical & New Trends in Modern Astrology, ed. by Joan McEvers) speaks about "the Shadow Chart" and says, that "both charts can be interpreted independently for a more total picture of an individual." Some astrologers have seen the Arabic chart as a picture of the unconscious and the so-called draconic chart as a reflection of the higher self. In their way of thinking the Radix is the conscious level.

Almost all the charts derived from the Radix (like the harmonic charts) are sometimes said to reflect the unconscious. But the way the Arabic Chart is calculated, doesn't refer to unconsciousness. On the contrary, when the Sun is moved to the Ascendant, something from within is brought forth and expressed outwardly and more consciously. For studying unconscious tendencies dwads are much better.

Interpretations of the Arabic Parts have often been based on the way they are calculated, for instance:

The Ascendant (here and now, personal action)
+ Mercury (thinking, communication)
- the Sun (identity, ego, individuality)

= the point where the Mercurial principle acts at its purest, without any coloring from the ego and the need for self-assertion.

But the minus or plus sign in the formula just shows the direction we are moving along the zodiac (clockwise or anti-clockwise), it doesn't mean that we would be taking anything away, in fact, the opposite is true: in each Arabic Part three points are integrated - the Sun, the Ascendant and the third point (planet or the Moon).

The Arabic chart can be seen as a kind of inner model of integration, in which basic energies (aspects) are intact, but ways of functioning (signs) are transformed so, that the inner self (the Sun) and the outer persona (the Ascendant) are conjoined = we get a picture of how to channel one's inner self into the outer life here and now.

The Arabic Ascendant
In the Arabic Chart your Sun will be on the Ascendant, thus the Arabic Ascendant shows how to bring forth the power of your Sun. People with their Sun exactly on their Ascendant don't have a separate Arabic chart, they meet the world in an instinctive and direct way, their essence fits well with their role, they are doing their thing.

That is something we all can do through our Arabic chart. Being thus able to use all our capabilities has a positive effect on our lives, as all those know who are passionately interested in something. An intensive devotion will be noticed, it often gives a more balanced view on life and people and also an ability to accept others and give them space, because there is no need to fight for a "place in the Sun". Having your own special corner lets you judge things calmly and realistically without being too much influenced by outer happenings and disturbances (transits).

The Arabic Chart vs. the Radix
Any Radix point close to the Arabic Ascendant will be activated to amazing degree, usually it reflects something you really recognize as your own. With no aspects from the Arabic Chart to the Radix you may have a harder time in staying in touch with your inner talents and self. Many flowing aspects make it easy for you to be yourself, or so it seems. Sometimes too much easiness may make you act out something that you later on find was not so good after all. You may still be a stranger to yourself, because there is nothing forcing you to go deep within. Struggling with hard aspects teaches you a lot about yourself and about things that you need to live a meaningful life.

Sign changes between the Radix and the Arabic chart show you how you could change your life to support your self-realization process. If you have Leo rising with the Arabic Ascendant in Virgo, you have the ego of a Lion but 'fate' may still want you to be a humble servant in conditions where you have to keep your ego tightly in check. If Virgo is rising and the Arabic Ascendant in Leo your niche may fully glorify your ego although otherwise you might still like to lead a modest Virgoan life.

The Ascendant vs. the Sun
The significance of the relationship between the Ascendant and the Sun is emphasized in the Arabic Chart. If the Sun is above the Earth, the Arabic Ascendant is below = individualization implies turning inwards, towards subjectivity. Likewise the Sun below the Earth means, that individualization leads towards the outer world, towards objectivity.

Here we can draw a parallel with the Jungian view that the unconscious world often compensates any one-sidedness in the conscious psyche which often means deep changes after the mid-life crises: The inner world becomes more influential, and also the search for your own thing (the Arabic Chart). Then we often begin to develop talents that were left uncultivated in the most active bustle and excitement of the young ears.

The Sun on the Ascendant
may mean that your self-expression is natural and assured, automatic and instinctive, resembling Aries/Leo type (the 1st house/the Sun). You may find your own voice when still very young, although often quite unconsciously. There may be a desire for power and some egocentricity. In the East (especially in India) this is a common placement in the charts of gurus - according to Lois M. Rodden so common that it is curious, if not suspect. Examples: Pakh Subud, Sri Aurobindo and Sai Baba.

The Sun on the Descendent
If the Sun is on the Descendant, the identity is tied up with others; in the worst case you live through others, in the best case you have empathy and sensitivity. Usually becoming self-sufficient and independent takes longer - in words of a Finnish writer, Matti Kurjensaari: "The most difficult thing in the world is to be what one truly is."

Often this type projects parts of her or his own identity onto others and then tries to find herself or himself through them. But the elements are harmonious, thus the position is good for unity and insight, it may even foster a very deep understanding of the human psyche- in fact, the position often gives you deep understanding of human nature (Sigmund Freud, C. G. Jung, Baruch Spinoza).

But if the process fails, it may lead to unconscious dependence on others or living through others, sometimes destroying them in the process. The worst example is Hitler; with him the problem was accentuated because the signs (Libra - Aries) emphasized the 1st/7th house opposition. According to C. G. Jung Hitler had no personal psychology at all, he acted through others and was their mouthpiece. Also Charles Manson has his Sun in the seventh, although not exactly on the Descendent.

The Sun Below / Above the Earth
The Sun below, especially in the 4th house, indicates a centered, inner-oriented type, interested in the human psyche; the Sun in the 10th is more outer-oriented, interested in her or his career. Both orientations, if too one-sided, may jeopardize one's natural and balanced self-realization here and now.

The 4th house type is usually at home in the inner world, but not always motivated to share his findings with others. The 10th house type may act with such a passion in the outer world that the inner side is left completely unexplored, unless some outer conflict forces this type to turn inwards to find some deeper meaning in what is happening. The fourth and the tenth houses are fundamentally opposite, if both are accentuated, a lot of creativity is needed for a balanced life.

On Sun's Aspects
With Sun square Ascendant the elements are basically dissimilar, sometimes a difficult position but often a very creative one. The Sun in trine or sextile to the Ascendant means harmonious elements and thus self-actualization is easy but doesn't necessarily go deep enough. Thus there is less self-awareness, sometimes also mental laziness, unless there are other more motivating aspects.

Smaller aspects can be interpreted similarly, for instance a quincunx may reflect a need for self-improvement and for a new balance of energies before self-actualization becomes possible. The semi-sextile, often a subjective type of aspect, may imply hidden, still undeveloped, possibilities and a need of effort before finding one's true path. In a psychological sense elements are often at least as important than aspects.

Synastry
The Arabic Chart is very sensitive in synastry. We attract people who touch our sensitive Arabic Chart points and thus sides we need to develop for being true to ourselves. With harmonious contacts relationships facilitate our growth and help us to become more individualized. Hard Saturn contacts are often frustrating at the beginning but may later on reward us with a greater self-awareness and more mature individuality. The effect is often similar to the seventh house Sun.

A good example is >Carl Payne Tobey himself who he said that astrologers usually thought that he had his Ascendant either in Sagittarius or in Leo - both were right: he had Sagittarius rising but his Arabic Ascendant was in Leo. And his friend and partner, Grant Lewi, had his Radix Ascendant in a very close conjunction with Tobey's Arabic Ascendant in Leo, likewise Sydney Omarr, another partner and friend of Tobey's, had his Sun in Leo close to Tobey's Arabic Ascendant. Tobey also developed a very original house system, where houses are counted clockwise from Leo, the sign of his Arabic Ascendant.

Your own thing = The Arabic Ascendant
The Radix house, in which your Arabic Ascendant falls, is an area essential for your self-realization. The Arabic Ascendant is often very noticeable in highly individualized people who do what they really want to do. These people can often stand out from the crowd as very unique individuals who are being totally themselves. The examples below show how well the Arabic Ascendant describes many self-realizing people (the Radix Ascendant is mentioned in parentheses)."

My Arabic ASC is in Scorpio in my 12th Radix house. Actually my arabic Mars, Neptune, NN are all there, and that definitely makes sense to me.

posted June 26, 2010 04:46 AM         

Probably because KAALI is not important in his chart like it is in mine. My KAALI cj exact regulus is where i will find my Twin Soul/Soul Mate.

We also have his (s) NN opp my NN exact, My (s) Lara opp his briede/groom MP and his (s) briede/groom MP cj my (s) valentine/his name. His (s) Lara cj my NN and my (s) Briede cj his valentine.. All these are exact.
Interestingly, my angles cj his briede/boda

posted June 26, 2010 05:00 AM         

Probably because KAALI is not important in his chart like it is in mine. My KAALI cj exact regulus is where i will find my Twin Soul/Soul Mate.

We also have his (s) NN opp my NN exact, My (s) Lara opp his briede/groom MP and his (s) briede/groom MP cj my (s) valentine/his name. His (s) Lara cj my NN and my (s) Briede cj his valentine.. All these are exact.
Interestingly, my angles cj his briede/boda

posted June 26, 2010 05:15 AM         

Also, I am curious, you DID find your twinflame already, didn`t you?
Wasn`t the one you were talking about some months ago your twinflame?

I only thought (or rather felt) once that I had found my twinflame. But well, I was 15 years old, and didn`t even have a clue what a twinflame is.
But I remember talking to a friend of mine about him and by trying to explain my feelings for him I used the image, that it was like "an elastic cord is connecting me to him" It was before I even read anything about soulmates or twinflames.
But as I said I was just 15 years old, and when others started having their romantic crushes on boygroups, I started believing I had "found" my twinflame.
probably he was just some kind of "guide" to bring me on my spiritual path. Because it cannot be denied, that THAT Was the experience / meeting that changed my whole life.
It was like I was having a crossroad before me, and with that meeting I chose the spiritual path. Simple as that.