posted June 24, 2010 08:26 AM         

IQ,
Your comment on the other thread, "Remember, the Part of Fortune is also the Secondary/Shadow Chart's Moon." wowed me. This eclipse on June 26th hits my Part of Fortune in the First House. I have been trying to determine what that will mean for me.

posted June 24, 2010 09:52 AM         

You can see how similiar it is (the numbers in brackets are the sidereal ones) here:

Sun: 7 Sagittarius (2 Sagittarius)
Moon: 28 Capricorn (23 Capricorn)
Venus: 17 Sagittarius (12 Sagittarius)
Mars: 16 Scorpio (11 Scorpio)
Saturn: 28 Gemini (23 Gemini)
Neptune: 21 Scorpio (16 Scorpio)
Pluto: 20 Virgo (15 Virgo)
NN: 21 Scorpio (16 Scorpio)
Chiron: 1 Aries (26 Pisces)
ASC: 18 Scorpio (13 Scorpio)
IC: 16 Pisces (11 Pisces)

Karma: 27 Taurus (22 Taurus)
Destinn: 4 Cancer (29 Gemini) - oops seems the ecclips will be on my secondary Destinn
Juno: 28 Aquarius (23 Aquarius)
Amor: 13 Scorpio (8 Scorpio)
Valentine: 9 Scorpio (4 Scorpio)
Psyche: 5 Aquarius (0 Quarius)
Eros: 3 Cancer (27 Gemini)
Angel: 19 Scorpio (14 Scorpio)

posted June 24, 2010 01:12 PM         

DD,
The Secondary Chart was pioneered by Tobey. He calls it the "Shadow Chart", the chart of our Awake State or who we become once we become Spiritually Awake. Tobey used to map transits very accurately based on this Secondary Chart because he thought the events occurred to increase our evolution.

This is the reason why I consider Draconic Chart to be more of a cumulative Soul Chart or a Past Life Chart, because if there be chart for our Soul alone, it would be the Secondary Chart.

Again, this is limited knowledge, not researched by others than Tobey and of course our bunch on Linda Land. We may find more uses for it or even better descriptions as time goes by.

My Secondary Ascendant is 21 Capricorn [Axis of Earthquakes!] and Secondary Sun is Aries. I have to affirm that prior to my awakening 2003, I was very much Cancerian but since then am more and more Arian with a Cappy demeanour in the outside world.
And every transit to Secondary 8th House Cusp seems to bring a fated event much out of my control. More than tropical 8th Cusp.
The only other such predictable event occurs during Sun conj Saturn Shift Sun or Sun conj Draconic Sun.

------------------
http://tamsoft.co.in/articles.html

posted June 24, 2010 01:29 PM         

"the chart of our Awake State or who we become once we become Spiritually Awake."
Does that mean that this chart has no significance, as long as we are not spiritually awake?
Or will it, in these cases, be more like some kind of halfconscious-subconscious undertow?

"This is the reason why I consider Draconic Chart to be more of a cumulative Soul Chart or a Past Life Chart, because if there be chart for our Soul alone, it would be the Secondary Chart."
So, if the secondary chart is like a Soul Chart, then it would be "active", no matter if we are awake or not, right?
The difference would maybe only our awareness?
Or how do you see it?

Interestingly, I just noticed, that my secondary chart seems to be very connected to Paul`s tropical chart.
Just remembering that his tropical Moon is on 19 Taurus and thus opposing the Scorpio stellium of Mars, ASC, Neptune, NN, Angel in my secondary chart.
It is interesting that it was through him that my spiritual awakening started many years ago.

Maybe I feel my secondary chart in the synastry with him quite strongly?
I think I might do a little research of secondary chart synastry one of these days.

"My Secondary Ascendant is 21 Capricorn [Axis of Earthquakes!]"
Your secondary ASC falls exactly onto my Sun-Moon-mp and Antivertex. lol
Maybe your secondary ASC describes your soul`s urge to investigates Earthquakes and helps you find the right asteroids intuitively?

"I was very much Cancerian but since then am more and more Arian with a Cappy demeanour in the outside world."
But you also have an Aries ASC, right?

Anyway, so for me that means that I have become more Scorpionic, as my secondary ASC is in Scorpio, I think?

"And every transit to Secondary 8th House Cusp seems to bring a fated event much out of my control."
That is interesting.
I will have to check some past events for this.

posted June 24, 2010 05:38 PM         

Di,
The principle behind the secondary chart is that your natal Ascendant becomes your secondary Sun - so you're going to be a secondary Libra Sun. You take the distance between Asc and Sun and shift your entire chart. This is why natal POF becomes the secondary Moon, because the formula for POF is based on the distance between Sun and Asc. However, if I remember correctly, this is only valid for diurn charts, for nocturne ones the secondary Moon is Part of Spirit in natal chart.
To calculate your secondary chart, go to noendpress...something, Arabic Part Calculator and insert Asc in the first column, Sun in the 3rd and the planet or point you are trying to determine in the second one. I think this is how it's done, it's been a while since I thought about this. The technical principle is the same as with Draconics, except you use Sun and Asc instead of NN and Aries Point.

Seems IQ has my natal Sun and Asc in his secondary chart, a very ambitious combination if I may say so myself. And I share a secondary Scorpio Asc with DD.
I have a Cap Sun, Libra Moon and Scorpio Asc in my secondary chart. I don't know about the Libra Moon, but I relate a lot to the other 2.
Since you were talking about awakenings, I think mine started in 2004-2005, around the time when Chiron conjuncted my natal Asc/secondary Sun.

posted June 24, 2010 06:11 PM         

But what I have found, really floored me!

his sec Sun conjunct her Venus
his sec Venus conjunct her Moon exact
his sec Jupiter conjunct her Moon
his sec Saturn opposite her Sun exact
his sec Pluto opposite her Moon
his sec DESC conjunct her Sun exact

her sec Neptune conjunct his Uranus
her sec Pluto conjunct his Moon
her sec DESC conjunct his ASC
her sec DESC conjunct his Saturn

his sec Sun conjunct her sec DESC
his sec MOon conjunct her sec Jupiter
his sec Mars conjunct her sec Venus widely (4 degrees)
his sec Mars conjunct her sec Mars exact
his sec Saturn conjunct her sec Pluto
his sec SN conjunct her sec Venus
his sec SN conjunct her sec Mars
his sec ASC conjunct her sec Pluto exact

All I can say is WOW, really.

posted June 25, 2010 05:48 AM         

right now I am experiencing a similiar mental adrenlaine rush concerning the secondary chart as I had when discovering Dracos, maybe even more.

It would be great if you could post as much information as possible. I feel like this might be a very important piece in our astrological puzzle.
But I got to research it more.

Actually I was ch ecking the secondary chart of my friend, who has found her twinflame five years ago.

Look at this:

his sec Pluto conjunct her Venus

her sec Sun conjunct his Venus
her sec Moon conjunct his ASC
her sec Mars opposite his Venus
her sec Saturn conjunct his Venus
her sec Pluto opposite his Sun
her sec ASC conjunct his Saturn

posted June 25, 2010 06:33 AM         

No it is not an option in astro.com.
You move the planets with the arc of your Sun-ASC-relationship.

In my case Sun is 26 Sagittarius, and ASC is 7 Sagittarius. Since my Sun is moving away from my ASC I have to SUBSTRACT these 19 degrees difference from all other planets.

If my Sun had been moving towards my ASC (like if it had been in Scorpio), I would have to add these 19 degrees to every planetary position.

Or with other words, you are calculating the arabic charts.

The way to do it is:

ASC position + (planet) - Sun position.

posted June 25, 2010 08:55 AM         

my first awakening was when Tr Pluto was exact on my Secondary ASC and conjunct secondary NN and secondary Neptune as well!

IQ,

posted June 25, 2010 09:19 AM         

my 2nd to his tropical
sun cj union
sun opp boda
moon opp destinn and sun/moon MP
venus cj persephone
venus/saturn/NN opp groom/psyche/destinn
karma/juno cj boda/AC and opp union
valentine/his name opp sun/mercury
AC opp briede
proserpina cj pluto
lara cj briede/groom MP
kaali/groom opp telephus
pluto cj lara
telephus/psyche cj saturn
vertex cj sun
DNA opp lara
NN cj persephone and opp groom

posted June 25, 2010 09:21 AM         

(1) Paul Newman - Joanne Woodward

his sec Sun conjunct her ASC
his sec NN conjunct her Pluto
his sec SN conjunct her Juno

her sec Sun conjunct his ASC
her sec Sun opposite his Pluto
her sec Sun conjunct his Venus
her sec ASC conjunct his Saturn
her sec NN conjunct his Sun exact
her sec Venus conjunct his ASC
her sec Valentine conjunct his ASC exact

his sec Sun conjunct her sec Sun
his sec Sun conjunct her sec Venus
his sec Sun conjunct her sec Valentine exact
his sec Moon conjunct her sec NN
his sec ASC conjunct her sec Mars
his sec ASC conjunct her sec Eros
his sec Juno conjunct her sec ASC

This is just INCREDIBLE. And as I saw with other synastries, definitely not usual to have such a high amount of aspects.

(2) Robert Browning - Elizabeth Barrett Browning

her sec SN conjunct his Juno
her sec Juno conjunct his Moon exact
his sec NN conjunct her sec Juno
his sec Pluto conjunct her sec ASC

(3) Tom Hanks - Rita Wilson

his sec Sun conjunct her Venus
his sec DESC conjunct her Valentine
his sec Pluto conjunct her Sun
his sec Saturn opposite her Moon

her sec Sun conjunct his NN
her Sec ASC conjunct his Juno

(3) Paul Mc Cartney - Linda Eastman

his sec Sun conjunct her NN
his sec Moon conjunct her Moon
his sec Moon conjunct her sec Juno exact
his sec ASC conjunct her sec Moon exact

her sec Moon opposite his Sun
her sec NN conjunct his sec Mars
her sec NN conjunct his sec Valentine

(4) Spencer Tracey - Katherine Hepburn

his sec Moon opposite her Valentine
his sec Moon opposite her sec Venus
his sec SN conjunct her sec Valentine exact
her sec Pluto conjunct his NN

Interestingly this was the first synastry which had NO strong Juno conjunction to each other`s Sun/Moon/ASC/NN, and even though they have been a couple for about 25 years I think, they never were married.

EDIT:
I only used JUNO, VALENTINE and EROS as asteroids, as I ´wanted to have a clear picture, and personally I find these most significant. I don`t know why I forgot to check KARMA though. lol

Lara,

I am not surprised to see a Pluto-Proserpina conjunction there!

posted June 25, 2010 09:26 AM         

so these basic interactions you have are:

(I need to narrow your list down to keep a clear view / sight)

your second to his tropical
karma/juno cj AC
valentine opp sun

his 2nd to my tropical
sun cj AC
NN opp saturn/NN/venus
IC opp AC

posted June 25, 2010 09:40 AM         

Yes, agree and that SN action is cool too...

2nd to 2nd
SUN cj SUN
NN cj briede
saturn cj groom
venus cj lara
eros cj mars
kaali cj vertex/destinn
valentine opp moon/venus/NN/saturn
moon/karma cj telephus/psyche
lara opp briede
saturn opp kaali

posted June 25, 2010 09:53 AM         

It is actually far more individual than the Draconic chart, as the nodal axis still is moving a lot more slowly than ASC.

posted June 25, 2010 10:20 AM         

The secondary chart reflects the natal Sun-ASC- arc.
Just like the Draconic reflects the natal NN-Aries-point arc.
The Draconic of course has strong lunar symbolism through its relation to the LUNAR nodes, and maybe represents the place of the individual in a collective (Aries-point), emphasizing the receptive, even past oriented part of each one (lunar symbolism), which might be a reason that it reflects past life experiences. the moon remembers and has her emotional ties in the past.

If that is true, then the Secondary chart maybe reflects something SOLAR, a strong emphasis on the solar (Sun) individuality (ASC).
What is the Sun really about?
I often find that we seem to misunderstand the solar symbolism quite easily. Or at least I Have not yet come across a description that really "clicked" for me.

But if Moon and Sun are complimentary, maybe the Sun represents the conscious, future oriented side of us?
The consciousness or even soul, that is not just tied to the past, but that true Self, the ones we are deep inside without "adapting to social demands".

Hmm, does that help us to find out how to interprete the secondary chart?

Just had a thought:
What if the secondary chart represents our PURE Self?
Not subconscious, not unconscious, quite the opposite actually; what if this is what we really are, if we strip away all compromise this world has asked of us?

And maybe, if secondary planets or points are conjunct tropical ones, these "pure traits" are channelled / shining through the expression of the tropical planet?

The secondary SUN is always our tropical ASC - it is through the ASC that our true SElf comes through, is being born, it is the umbilical cord to this incarnation, our anchor in the material world, but at the same time it also serves as a channel for our "Spirit".

And wouldn´t that mean, that if other people put their tropical planets in conjunction to our solar / secondary planets, that they somehow would see that part of us in its truest / purest form?
Is that the reason that some people just "look through" us as if we were from glass, to the bottom of what we really are, sometimes without even noticing the more superficial traits we have?

I always wondered how my friend was seeing that strength and dedication and power in me; things that I do not seem to posess on a first glance.
It was not that she thought these things were hidden deep within me and they had to be lured out; it was without question for her that I had these qualities and was expressing them (even though probably only she could see them in me; I certainly did not at a certain time).

And now I see that my solar Pluto is conjunct her tropical Sun. *scratches head* Wow.

She also always saw a very unconventional, unique quality in me, which seemed to be very different from her. For a long time this was actually a cause of discomfort for her, as she was always striving for a more conventional life: House, husband, 1,5 children.
On the other hand my occupation with astrology was intriguing to her, too, and she opened up to these concepts a lot.
Well, I could identify with that unconventional (in her understanding) view she had /( has on me; I have Aquarius Moon after all.
But now I see that my solar Uranus is conjunct her Stellium of Mercury/Venus/Mars/Pluto in Libra and opposing her Moon and squaring her ASC in the tropical.

Okay, I think I ahve to go and let that sink in a bit.