posted October 08, 2010 04:47 PM         

I do have to conclude from that, that it's something in his chart, since he does this everywhere - at work, with his family, here at home, with my family, when he's out, ... That's why I figured it's the Scorpio rising. It could be the fact that his mars is in a fixed house, though. It does exclude the idea that something in my chart makes him that way, otherwise it would have to be incredibly coincidental that everyone else has a similar placement that his chart draws upon...

posted October 08, 2010 05:02 PM         

"something in my chart makes him that way,"
If you were referring to what I wrote, then it's not what I meant. I mean that like attracts like, whether certain traits are conscious or not is beside the point.

posted October 08, 2010 05:12 PM         

Then again, I'm not much else of a typical scorpio, it could be hidden deep within the catacombs of my consciousness. I'm not going to deny its existence altogether, I'm just saying that I don't even have that instinct.

Anyway, that still leaves the feedback I get off his colleagues and family, and friends. He certainly is stubborn. If it's not his Scorpio rising, then what is it? He doesn't have much else fixed, no Capricorn to speak of. The only thing I can think of then is his Aries moon perhaps.

Anyway, about being stubborn, I do make a fuss out of that but that's only because my mother incessantly told me that I was stubborn for no other apparent reason than because I was a Scorpio, she was a Scorpio and insisted that I must have been the same as her then. It's a bit frustrating so please don't take it personally when I get a bit annoyed about that, it just brings back some early childhood frustrations

Oh yeah, bad signature for disappearing like that!

posted October 08, 2010 05:41 PM         

Im speaking to the fact that your Sun is attracting this energy that is lying dormant somewhere inside you, which is common enough for women.
Keep in mind that an energy that seems negative can always be reworked to be positive. So if you think im spelling out doom and gloom for all eternity, no no. No no, it can be positive, its how you work with it. in my opinion, this is how youre working with the sun energy right now.

posted October 08, 2010 06:25 PM         

But like I said, it could be deep within the catacombs of my psyche... after all, I say I'm never jealous and at first sight that would be true, but if I really didn't have that emotion I probably wouldn't be human. We have more or less every emotion known to man in us, but we don't all feel the natural need to exert those.

Which brings me back to: if it's so deep in my psyche, how would he "sense" that likeness (and seeing as we inhibit every human emotion, why doesn't that attract him to everyone else? Really, why doesn't it? That would be a simple solution to my problem )

posted October 08, 2010 06:36 PM         

" how would he "sense" that likeness"
Oh right, because it operates in terms of energy, or vibes if you want to call it. I see this being usually unconscious but it depends on the person and their awareness.

"why doesn't that attract him to everyone else"
a scorpio rising who is not attracted to everyone? who is this man?!

this is my new signature, to the point and a bit cheeky, i like it

posted October 08, 2010 07:51 PM         

Lenake (sorry if its spelt wrong) aya has a Moon/Chiron conjunction in the 7th, this could give major issues around the mother and communication and because it's the 7th its an easy one to project onto others...I agree with what you've said so far and understand where you are coming from. Looking at it from a psychastro perspective there has to be some sort of transference and projection thing going on like there is with everyone else on the planet.

Aya please don't be put off by the probing and unintentional provocation, some of us here are heavily into dynamics and how it manifests through the charts, I can only speak for myself when I say I forget there is a human being on the end of the chart (and screen) and I can be a bit clinical at times, its also hard to not poke wounds from time to time as none of us know any depth of personal history and therefore can't give the same level of sensitivity at times. I think Lenake may be onto something in your charts and its possible she(he?)has a strong feel for what is going on. I responded to it myself because my Sun sits on his Venus, I have the moon/chiron in aries and a scorpio ascendant...we tune in easily to what resonates on a personal level.

posted October 08, 2010 08:32 PM         

dysfunctional: I don't get it... Leo venus and saturn are outnumbered by his cardinal planets, so why would he be so stubborn if it's not a cardinal trait or a scorpio rising trait? I don't think Leo venus and/or saturn alone can explain the amount of stubbornness, of course it will add to it, but... If anything, it will have to be leo saturn, venus, scorpio uranus and scorpio rising working together, which still implies that scorpio rising has something to do with it

The only transference going on with the whole "am I or am I not stubborn"-thing, is that I react exactly the same way as with my mother, regardless of the reason why someone said it. That's pretty normal because (no offense) when I hear something like that I usually have the "Oh, here we go again, I hope I don't have to explain that not every Scorpio is stubborn?"-feeling (not that I'm implying that Lonake thought that, but with the reference to the sun and saying that such a position is stubborn, that conclusion was easily made) exactly because I had to explain it over and over to my mother until I got frustrated from trying.

By the way, it's only been the last couple of years that she finally started to admit that I'm probably not as much like her as she expected me to be (what a surprise... )

So yeah, that bit is transference. When someone says I'm something when I'm not, I do see that bit of my mother in them and think "not again".

I'm not offended, though. Of course no one knows my entire history, and toes will be stepped on from time to time, willingly or not. Mine can handle a whole lot, but when I say I don't have a certain quality, you can rest assured and trust my word for it. There is absolutely no gain for me in lying about it.

Oh, and my Gemini (and dare I say Sagittarius? ) usually wins from my Scorpio. I don't like to go deep, at all. No pun intended

Lonake: nice signature. I hope that's not directed to me...

posted October 08, 2010 09:35 PM         

dysfunctional: I said he was stubborn everywhere - at work, home, etc... - I should've said appears stubborn. I go by what people tell me and almost all of them said he is stubborn, so I naturally assume that next to appearing stubborn, he is stubborn in those areas too. Because he appears stubborn in every area of life, this is how he portrays himself. Hence, that would be his rising. No?

I know for a fact that there's no talking to him here at home and because he shouldn't have to put up a front for me (but probably does... ) we can somewhat safely assume that that would be the planets involved that do it.

As for my Saturn conjunct Sun - what I understand from synastry, is that one person draws on another's energy if that energy is aspected to the first person's chart. Right? In that case, that's another reason why I found it hard to believe that it would be my sun being drawn upon (since there are more aspects going to my pluto from his chart) and felt like it was something that would be assumed I would be - in this case stubborn, because I find him to be incredibly stubborn.

I do fully understand that the chart is not set in stone. After all, we get our natal charts at birth and we do evolve throughout the years. If a chart stays the same as your personality then we wouldn't evolve psychologically at all. But when someone says that my saturn conjunct sun signifies a stubborn nature, and that my sun can't be ignored, it really does sound to me like they assume that I should be like my sun sign - bringing me back to my experience with my mother.

I said I certainly won't deny that I could have an emotion like that, since everyone has every emotion known to man. What I was saying is that this emotion never fully developed into what it could be - or what is expected - in me, and that it would be a bit of a long shot that someone, whose "stubbornness" is more developed (not necessarily positively) would pick up on mine in particular, and not all those other people who have never developed a stubborn streak (positive or negative) and are probably in the same developmental stage as me. Which leaves quite a few people.

I understand why someone like him would want to pick up on someone's stubborn nature, but... again, going back to my experience with my mother (and with him too, by the way, how many times haven't I heard him saying I acted like a typical Scorpio while I wasn't doing anything at all that could signify "typically Scorpio". It also made me feel like he was trying to force me into a mould that didn't fit me at all.) ... Isn't he just imagining it exactly because I am a Scorpio sun, and he expects me to have this energy more than others, or did he really sense it?

Which begs the question: does he draw that energy from me, or do I just conform to his wishes?

posted October 09, 2010 03:33 AM         

Regarding the rest....
I pretty much already stated my full opinion on the matters on which I wrote..If they seem confusing to you, then I do apologize.

I will give you one thing, you are one very analytical cookie.....Makes sense with the Merc conj Uranus conj Asc.
Your Dsc ruler is in the 1st conj the Asc, read up on house rulerships for that combo, you may find it interesting.
Here's a simple interp to get you started,

"Ruler of the 7th house in the 1st house
You may be under the influence of the partner. You tend to follow and submit to the other, the partner. The danger is to become totally dependant. Love at first sight and sudden encounters/attractions influence one's life. The partner brings you in motion and is the force that drives you.

posted October 09, 2010 06:44 AM         

The moon - uranus opposition is not pleasant, it can't stand heavy emotion and would rather analyse from a distance..preferably an ivory tower if the 3rd house or mercury is also involved, the scorpio in you will be compulsively drawn to certain situations, it may not be obvious to you how this works yet and may take a transit through your 12th to really activate it (possibly saturn) but I've no doubts you'll be given a lot of insight in the years to come.

Charts can take years to unfold, two significant transits include the lunar return (aged 28) the saturn return (28-30), I'm 37 and I've been doing astrology for years and still finding bits about myself, and I work as a clairvoyant and astrologer, I've been on a non stop self developement path my entire adult life....and I still realise things about my behaviour, I was 36 before I could admit to being complex lol people say I'm elusive and enigmatic..a mystery yet I don't see that myself at all but when people consistently point it out you know there has to be something in it somewhere but my aries moon doesn't like it one bit.

posted October 09, 2010 09:23 AM         

dysfunctional: he doesn't just appear stubborn to me and to his boss. It's absolutely everyone he's been in contact with for, obviously, longer than the 5 minutes it takes to order a drink off someone and have some small talk. All his cardinal houses do happen to be in fixed signs.

It takes longer than 5 minutes to get to know someone, at first glance he does look like he knows what he wants - not exactly a dead ringer for being stubborn, but it comes close. That's the Scorpio rising: first impressions. What he comes over as to others, not necessarily how he portrays himself in society (speaking of which, he does happen to see himself as a rich, successful businessman), but how he comes over. Is it not?

To me he's incredibly stubborn and claims he's always right and no matter what I say it doesn't change his mind. It might not be it, but it matches perfectly with his Taurus 7th house. It might not be how he is naturally (because he does insist all the time that he's not the stubborn one and I am because I'm a Scorpio. Seriously, he does.) but it's how he acts within our relationship. Of course, I don't know what he was like with his ex girlfriends, I never met them.

At work he does portray himself as someone who drives his will through, wants things his way. That aligns with both his Leo MC as well as his Leo Saturn. Despite it not exactly being conjunct because the MC is rapidly moving away from Saturn in his 9th, but hey...

(disclaimer before reading the following: if the following feels offensive to you, I apologise in advance. It is mostly the venting of my frustrations when I feel people seem to misunderstand the situation or seem to reflect their own experience or personality onto me. To a degree, everyone recognises their own personality (or contrasts) within someone else, but when people keep on insisting that's when it goes too far for me. It has always been my pet peeve, and I don't mean to personally offend you at all. Remember that in some bits I am speaking generally because I have had previous experiences with reflecting (like my latest ex - yeah, the one we're talking about) and comparing. I believed it and I was hugely disillusioned afterwards. All of those feelings do come flooding back up when you do something similar to me, and so some reactions are probably more forceful than they should be. My Gemini moon is currently working on rationalising them so that they're more to the degree that they should be, but it's always a bit late with that. Joke, by the way.)

As for why I'm still with him, I thought I made that perfectly clear: I can't get him out!!! Sorry, but it's just getting past frustrating how some people interpret situations in their own way and then reflect this onto the person they're interpreting the situation for. Certain events can and do have different causes and I said before: there's no gain in me lying about how or why, because that won't help me further at all. So really, because you assume I'm stubborn because I'm in this situation, it doesn't mean I am. If someone cheated on their partner, doesn't mean they're cheaters by nature. The person cheated on, naturally assumes they are even if it is a one-off. If you rob a bank out of pure despair, it doesn't mean you're a criminal per se... by law you are, but by personality you probably didn't find any other way available to you. (I'm not agreeing with crime out of despair, but I'm just giving an example) If there were better possibilities, you'd take them, I assume, instead of robbing a bank? So because I stay with someone despite his behaviour, that doesn't make me stubborn, it just makes me very, very stupid.

Then again, you say stubborn, I say stupid. You say they were going to do it anyway, I say they must have had some sexual frustration that their partner didn't want to discuss leading them to cheat. You say they had it coming anyway with a life like that, I say they were mistreated by authorities. And so on... we could agree to disagree.

So again: at first I thought I could help him get off the drink. I was about to call it a day when I found out I was pregnant. So - shame on me - I stayed with him for the baby, secretly hoping he would change after all. New variable, possible new outcome. The new outcome was worse, so now I want him gone entirely, have told him so but legally I have no leg to stand on, and I don't want anything violent to happen. That's pretty normal, isn't it? Since he has threatened to have me killed before, I certainly don't want to rattle his cage any more than I have to. I can play it cruel and get it over with in an instant, but that's only going to get us all in big trouble and with too many misunderstandings. (As you can see, I hate misunderstandings. They irk me.) Besides, I'm not the cruel type. I might be a bit stubborn about my values, but that's it. It really doesn't go any further than that.

Just tell me this: if I really was so stubborn, then why didn't I stay away the first time over? Because I have left him before. I reckon if I really was as stubborn or determined as you imply, I would have stuck to my guns which I didn't.

I don't want "control" over how it ends - I just don't want too much pain over this, and I want to know that I can be safe walking down the streets, because I wouldn't put it past him that he would do something like assault me out of anger. I'm not entirely desperate yet, otherwise I would have taken the quickest route out (court, police and everything else, and I would have probably lied about his abuse too - oh how easily those values fly out the window... ), but as long as other routes are still open - probably not as quick or easy - I will try to look for the least painful one. It just makes sense, I don't want anyone to feel unnecessary pain: I've felt enough of that already.

So please, it's not because I have Pluto, Saturn and Sun in Scorpio, that I'm as stubborn as they come (isn't that the idea behind dynamics?), so could you please stop implying it and try to understand the situation itself? And really, I am begging now, it's the only thing keeping me from banging my head against my desk out of frustration. I really don't want to have to explain the situation again. I didn't want to go into detail in the first place, actually...

We are all on a developmental path since birth, so you're really not alone there. Also, most of us on this forum have worked with astrology for years. So you're not alone there, either. We all have a history in one or another subject that is touched here. Some people realise things sooner than others, others much later than "normal". To assume that, because I'm younger I probably haven't discovered as much about myself as you have about yourself, is pretty much a fallacy. I'm not saying that I'm in a further stage of development at all, I might not be but I'm not going to voice myself on that because I don't know what stage you would be in, but I hope you understand that to make assumptions based on your own persona are not always going to touch ground somewhere. You have to keep an open mind about everything and when someone says they don't have a certain trait, ask yourself why they think that or don't have it at all despite their placements, instead of insisting they do. I came to very interesting conclusions by asking why.

So if you don't mind, can we please go back to the situation at hand, and leave this side-discussion for what it is - solved?

So the sitation at hand - hopefully a bit clearer now: He doesn't want to leave and he doesn't want to change. Doing it the painful way causes - obviously - too much grief. My question, therefore, was: how can I make it clear to him, which aspects of his can I tap into, to make him see that he has to go.

I am too subjective about this myself, as someone somewhere else rightfully pointed out to me, that's why I asked everyone else.

I'm going to take Ami's advice up, anyway, and go to Al-Anon to see how they have handled this, what different solutions there are that I haven't found yet. Eventually one solution is going to have to work... still, feel free to say which other possibilities I have.

posted October 09, 2010 09:34 AM         

Al--Anon is really, really wonderful. It is NOT a solution to him but a way for you to find the much needed peace you are seeking.

posted October 09, 2010 12:20 PM         

Can I borrow some of his stubbornness... or yours?

posted October 09, 2010 03:41 PM         

and stop washing his pants xxxx

posted October 09, 2010 06:48 PM         

That makes sense with what Lonake said, actually

dysfunctional: I'm trying to stop doing it, but it's stronger than me. I really do have this neurotic little behaviour pattern that I need to wash all the laundry, regardless of whose it is. Among other neurotic behaviour, which I'm not going to go into unless you're interested in it...

Jagita: it's not childish, I should really do it more, because when I listen to other people I am being lived, while if I make my own decisions regardless I do live my own life. It's somewhat half-and-half for me now: for most decisions I will listen to other people and base my decision on that, a select few I let my heart decide. I could say it would be based on how important the decision is, but important decisions aren't discriminated; they're either influenced by others or decided by me in generally the same percentage as other decisions.

He's not into astrology, by the way. I had a hard enough time explaining to him how and why he's not just a Virgo. Strangely enough he does seem to be happy to remind me that I'm a Scorpio. Every time we fight. One of his favourite sentences: "Scorpio's are flirts, they cheat, so you definitely will cheat if you get the chance". I don't even know how to begin explaining how wrong that is on every level, but you see... he's a bit of a contradiction: he doesn't believe in astrology but isn't afraid to use it (not exactly wisely) - I do often correct him by saying that it is more typical for mutable signs to cheat, but that it probably doesn't help if I say my chart is mostly mutable (I have to say, if someone gives me a golden opportunity to annoy them or tease them, I will take it! Even if we're supposed to be fighting...)

posted October 09, 2010 07:02 PM         

We did have a decent talk this morning before he went to work. He "finally" admitted that he does have a serious drink problem and that he will find help for it. But he has said it before and didn't go through with it, so I told him that.

Apparently he thought that I was seeing someone else behind his back because I was avoiding him for the last few months. I can imagine that men are often insecure in that department, but I told him time and again that if he's worried about such a thing, he should ask me straight out instead of assuming I did it. He wouldn't believe me when I said I'm always honest about things like that, no matter the consequence - of course he didn't believe that. But so far so good.

I am seriously trying to stick with my guns this time and go our seperate ways, because no matter how much he promises he'll change, he hasn't done it so far. So this time I told him that he has to find somewhere else to live in the mean time and work on his issues. I mentioned his mood swings too and that he projects them onto me to give him a reason to drink and suggested that the root of the problem could lie deeper, but he definitely needs to get help because alcoholism is a serious disease.

At first, he begged me to help him get off the drink but I reminded him that he'd asked this before, I offered my help and that my method of kicking habits is a bit crude (going cold turkey and zero tolerance for relapses) but it works, but that he never let me go through with that method.

It was nice to be able to talk to him sensibly, I was almost starting to think he didn't have it in him anymore.

posted October 10, 2010 05:29 PM         

I do know I have some Scorpio in me, but it hardly comes out in my behaviour or in my personality. I do notice it when it comes out, but that is quite rare, actually...

His Juno is at 16°51 Leo, in his 9th house. Square my Sun and Saturn and trine my Uranus. Too far for aspects with Mercury and Moon, I think... it's more than 10° and only going further away.

posted October 10, 2010 06:24 PM         

I get the problem, and one line in here struck me 'your need to control the situation is preventing change'.

I split up with my husband, the father of my daughter, 4 years ago. I thought about it seriously for 3 years, and tried to create change. When I made the decision to end it, I tried to over-control the situation and prided myself on the fact that I was doing it the 'best way' it could be done. My daughters father has remained a consistent feature in her life, and as a consequence of how 'nicely' it was done is a consistent feature of mine. I took some time to come to terms with what I had done and what I had lost, he didn't. So, I have ended up 4 years later with someone who has quite clearly not moved on, who comes and goes into my house as freely as he pleases, and who has not changed emotionally one jot since we split up. I blame myself for that. People applaud me for the way I have done things, but I can see that there is clearly NO RIGHT WAY.

You can end it clearly, decisively and nicely by leaving and freeing yourself, but leaving a note explaining why.

As someone who has trodden this path before - stop trying to do it the right way and just do what's right for you right now.