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Author Topic:   Borderline PD.
Doux Rêve
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posted January 12, 2011 12:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Doux Rêve     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hello all.

I've been wondering about what elements in a chart could indicate a "possibly" borderline personality disorder?

I think the moon has to be afflicted.. and some nasty mars and/or uranus aspects for the impulsiveness and quick changes.. saturn for control (more precisely the *inability* to control the emotions, the actions..)

What do you think?

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lechien
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posted January 12, 2011 12:48 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lechien     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i have to take a better look, but the very first thing that jumps to my eyes from looking at my mother's chart is a Cardinal Grand Cross.

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Ami Anne
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posted January 12, 2011 01:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Can you explain more,Lechien. Be as specific as you can.
My mother is not a BPD.However,she is close
She has an Aqua sun in exact conjunction with her Mercury.
5 degrees is a combust.Exact is nuclear lol
These may be in the 12th house. I am not sure of the birth time.

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mochai
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posted January 12, 2011 01:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mochai     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is my sister's. She was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder and she is one of the most reactive people I know. I can say something like cheese is high in saturated fat and start WW3 with her. I'm not good at reading charts, but I was kind of expecting more afflictions. For the people that know my posts, I only have one sister.

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lechien
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posted January 12, 2011 03:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lechien     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ami, i hope the birth time of my mother is accurate. it's not too off, if not correct. anyway she would have a Grand Cross.

funny, she's also an Aquarius Sun. if the time is right she's a double Aqua. Mercury is behind in the 12th house. Pluto opposes her Sun. these are not part of the Grand Cross.

her Grand Cross consists of Cap Venus in the 11th house, Aries Jupiter in 2nd, Uranus in Cancer 5th, and Saturn in Libra 8th.

i'm unsure if borderline is the only psychological disorder she has. it was not diagnosed to her directly, for a decade i went to many psychiatrists/therapists to find out what was wrong with me, and in the end i was told there is nothing wrong with me and they were more interested in my mother. it pointed to at least one symptom of borderline disorder. she is delusional and especially has a severe persecution/victim delusions. she finally kicked everyone out of her life including me. she is a very troubled person but there isn't anything i can do to help her.

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lechien
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posted January 12, 2011 03:37 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lechien     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
id just post her chart but photobucket has been giving me a blank page. i have to sort out the browser setting.

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mochai
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posted January 12, 2011 03:49 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mochai     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Borderlines need a lot of unconditional love. I love my sister, but it's not good for my sanity to be close to her. She can be very destructive.

Frequently however I see the disorder as being overly diagnosed and a bunch of people who don't belong are thrown into the diagnosis all because they are insecure or easily wounded. I could go off on how imbecilic the dsm-IV is but I won't.

Borderline Personality Disorder takes many years to cure, and most won't make it through dialectical behavior therapy because they become too reactive at some point and leave.

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Glaucus
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posted January 12, 2011 04:02 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
shrugs

in the navy, a ships doctor labeled me as having borderline personality disorder with avoidant traits

of course, I wasn't


I don't really trust psychiatric diagnosis


When I was in TCLS house, there was a lady who was diagnosed as having bipolar and had drug addictio , that was diagnosed as having borderline personality disorder.


a lot of neurodivergents like me can get easily labeled with any psychiatric disorder because our overall personalities are not "normal" to begin with

I don't think that psychiatric disorders can be seen in an astrological chart


My charts have stronger afflictions than the charts posted

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mochai
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posted January 12, 2011 04:46 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for mochai     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Glaucus, see above. I agree with you about the diagnosis and I have similar experiences. BPD is listed as a disorder that is not treatable with medication however some people do get medication happy.

You'd also have to know my sister. She has pluto square the mc/ic and lucifer square saturn on top of nessus conj eros. Then there's the obvious mars sq uranus/jupiter. She was known as a female dog on wheels for lack of a better term in high school. Most people do not like her unless they are super nice to begin with and are used to being put down and pushed around etc. And it's more than about the chart, it's the soul too. I'm just showing the chart of someone who is diagnosed with that.. and she is the most reactive person I know. It could be directed more towards me due to our past lives together.

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lechien
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posted January 12, 2011 05:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for lechien     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i don't know if psychological disorders show as a clear indication in someone's chart or not, but in my mother's case it shows her blocked energy and possible eventual "dead-end", i think. it could have been a blocked energy in anything, and it appeared in the area of mental health. i cannot read the chart that well to determine why she is affected psychologically. but i think it's also the blocked dynamic of her life itself that lead her to her psychosis.

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Odette
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posted September 06, 2014 11:17 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Odette     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
-bump-

In my opinion - Pisces Moon.. when afflicted.

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hypatia238
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posted September 07, 2014 12:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for hypatia238     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Great Thread Idea!

This is a client of mine who has BPD among other things such as delusional disorder, paranoia, trouble focusing..


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sweet-scorpion
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posted September 07, 2014 12:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for sweet-scorpion     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Doux, how have you been? I've been kind of low energy from all my school work, so I apologize that I haven't been able to respond to your e-mail yet. :'/

I've been diagnosed BPD, as I've discussed with you before. My mom exhibits signs of being Histrionic-BPD. In my opinion, personality disorders have genetic elements and I wouldn't be shocked if I inherited it from her and my unstable environment triggered the disorder to emerge by late childhood. Like others have mentioned here, it's a difficult disorder and one that takes a lot of time and consistent treatment to cure. And that's always my issue: inconsistency. I can't stick with therapy for too long, but I'm working very hard to complete a consistent therapy program with my university this semester.

Some aspects/configs that I think could contribute:

1. Moon-Uranus aspects, unstable childhood environment could trigger the disorder. Even 'flowing' aspects like the trine aren't easy to manage.

2. Moon-Chiron, emotional wounding that can persistent, obsession with past hurts; I see this with BPs, they're good at helping others or wanting to help others but we're bad at helping ourselves and taking our own advice (very Chiron).

3. 12H Pluto, possibly taking on victim role that goes with BPD/manipulating others with illness (my mom is particularly good at doing this - making people cater to her and shirking responsibilities because of her issues). I've also read that this placement (I have it) can lead to heightened sensitivities and a feeling of danger without knowing why, always worried that things will go wrong, and this seems consistent with the character traits that come with BPD. I've noticed many BP friends I've had are similarly psychically aware and fearful, even pessimistic.

4. Mercury-Mars and/or Mercury-Uranus, MANY people with BPD have an explosive and reactive way of communicating and either or both aspects can be consistent with unpredictable or explosive communication.

5. Mercury-Neptune, like Moon-Neptune emotions can color reason and this subjectivity causes serious issues and is consistent with BPD.

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hypatia238
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posted September 07, 2014 12:37 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for hypatia238     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mochai:
This is my sister's. She was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder and she is one of the most reactive people I know. I can say something like cheese is high in saturated fat and start WW3 with her. I'm not good at reading charts, but I was kind of expecting more afflictions. For the people that know my posts, I only have one sister.

I am thinking that having aries/libra and scorpio/taurus intercepted play a role as this would mean that her venus-mars conjunction are intercepted and this conjunction squares her jupiter and uranus.

But just having venus/mars in the 5th conjunct squaring jupiter and uranus alone would lead to promiscuity and unstable relationships that don’t last specially when you add to the mix restless AC gemini who gets bored easily but ofcourse the AC in gemini alone would not lead to BPD at all but I could see how the combo of all this would contribute to several of the symptoms that would lead to such a diagnosis.

Other contributors:
Moon square chiron
Mercury square neptune

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Voix_de_la_Mer
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posted September 07, 2014 04:59 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Voix_de_la_Mer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
BPD is essentially a way of relating to the world in the absence of more adaptive ways and wider perceptions of self and others.
More adaptive ways can be learned and BPD reactions and thoughts no longer take place.
All disorders of the personality are changeable, and have more to do with an individual's reaction to their environment, so I am not sure a propensity for this would be seen in the chart.
This is also an unpredictable condition by default of its core issue, and how a person expresses the criterion will differ by personality.

You would have to consider the environment the person is/was in as well as the symptoms.

There is also a huge number of misdiagnoses.

The term borderline is not only misunderstood by much of the public, but also professionals.

The new proposed term: Emotionally Unstable Personality Disorder actually illustrates the core issues - inability to manage powerful emotions. Every other thing in the criteria stems from this inability to manage emotion.
So, if I were going to look for anything in the chart, it would be this, bearing in mind that context is everything with this condition, and that depending on the context/trigger, many people who DON'T have this disorder will still struggle with their emotions also. So, on finding this, you may find ONE risk factor, that essentially everyone will experience at some point in their life.

It's actually even in question amongst some professionals whether there is really any such thing as a "personality disorder".
The only reason it appears so hard to treat is down a misunderstanding of what it is, and the revolt of professionals against individuals with it. Professionals who believe we should all be able to control our emotions all the time, unless we hear voices, have delusions, or don't know the name of the prime minister.

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Odette
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posted September 07, 2014 07:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Odette     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
^ I think saying that this is just an "inability to manage emotion" is a bit too simplistic.

In my opinion this article I explains BPD relationships perfectly:
http://www.bpdfamily.com/content/how-borderline-relationship-evolves

quote:
Regardless of how a person with Borderline Personality Disorder alters and tailor their appearance or actions to please others, a failed relationship often presents with a characteristic pattern over time. This pattern may take months or even years to evolve through. In the later periods, the personality often swings back and forth from one phase to the next.

What is the Progression of a Failed "BPD" Relationship? Typically a pattern that evolves through three stages: the Vulnerable Seducer, the Clinger, and the Hater.
Love: The Vulnerable Seducer Phase
At first, a Borderline female (or male) may appear sweet, shy, vulnerable and "ambivalently in need of being rescued"; looking for her Knight in Shining Armor. In the beginning, you will feel a rapidly accelerating sense of compassion because she portrays herself as she "victim of love" and you are saving her. But listen closely to how she sees herself as a victim. As her peculiar emotions advances upon you, you will hear how no one understands her - except you. Other people have been "insensitive." She has been betrayed, just when she starts trusting people. But there is something "special" about you, because "you really seem to know her".

It is this intense way she has of bearing down on you emotionally that can feel very seductive. You will feel elevated, adored, idealized - almost worshiped, maybe even to the level of being uncomfortable. And you will feel that way quickly. It may seem like a great deal has happened between the two of you in a short period of time, because conversation is intense, her attention, and her eyes are so deeply focused on you. Here is a woman who may look like a dream come true. She not only seems to make you the center of her attention, but she even craves listening to your opinions, thoughts and ideas. It will seem like you have really found your heart's desire.

Like many things that seems too good to be true, this is. This is borderline personality disorder.

It will all seem so real because it is real in her mind. But what is in her mind it is not what you perceive to be happening.

Love: The Clinger Phase
Her intense interest in you will subtly transform over time. She still appears to be interested in you, but no longer in what you are interested in. Her interest becomes your exclusive interest in her. This is when you start to notice “something”. Your thoughts, feelings and ideas fascinate her, but more so when they focus on her. You can tell when this happens because you can feel her "perk-up" emotionally whenever your attention focuses upon her feelings and issues. Those moments can emotionally hook your compassion more deeply into her, because that is when she will treat you well - tenderly.

It’s often here, you begin to confuse your compassion with love, and you believe you're in love with her. Especially if your instinct is strong and rescuing is at the heart of your "code." Following that code results in the most common excuse I hear as a therapist, as to why many men stay with borderline women, "

But I love her!" Adult love is built on mutual interest, care and respect - not on one-way emotional rescues.
But, if like King Priam, you do fall prey to this Trojan Horse and let her inside your city gates, the first Berserker to leave the horse will be the devious Clinger. A master at strengthening her control through empathy, she is brilliant at eliciting sympathy and identifying those most likely to provide it-like the steady-tempered and tenderhearted.

The world ails her. Physical complaints are common. Her back hurts. Her head aches. Peculiar pains of all sorts come and go like invisible, malignant companions. If you track their appearance, though, you may see a pattern of occurrence connected to the waning or waxing of your attentions. Her complaints are ways of saying, "don't leave me. Save me!" And Her maladies are not simply physical. Her feelings ail her too.

She is depressed or anxious, detached and indifferent or vulnerable and hypersensitive. She can swing from elated agitation to mournful gloom at the blink of an eye. Watching the erratic changes in her moods is like tracking the needle on a Richter-scale chart at the site of an active volcano, and you never know which flick of the needle will predict the big explosion. But after every emotional Vesuvius she pleads for your mercy. And if she has imbedded her guilt-hooks deep enough into your conscientious nature, you will stay around and continue tracking this volcanic earthquake, caught in the illusion that you can discover how to stop Vesuvius before she blows again. But, in reality, staying around this cauldron of emotional unpredictability is pointless. Every effort to understand or help this type of woman is an excruciatingly pointless exercise in emotional rescue.

It is like you are a Coast Guard cutter and she is a drowning woman. But she drowns in a peculiar way. Every time you pull her out of the turbulent sea, feed her warm tea and biscuits, wrap her in a comfy blanket and tell her everything is okay, she suddenly jumps overboard and starts pleading for help again. And, no matter how many times you rush to the emotional - rescue, she still keeps jumping back into trouble. It is this repeating, endlessly frustrating pattern which should confirm to you that you are involved with a Borderline Personality Disorder. No matter how effective you are at helping her, nothing is ever enough. No physical, financial or emotional assistance ever seems to make any lasting difference. It's like pouring the best of your self into a galactic-sized Psychological Black Hole of bottomless emotional hunger. And if you keep pouring it in long enough, one-day you'll fall right down that hole yourself. There will be nothing left of you but your own shadow, just as it falls through her predatory "event horizon." But before that happens, other signs will reveal her true colors.

Sex will be incredible. She will be instinctually tuned in to reading your needs. It will seem wonderful - for a while.

The intensity of her erotic passion can sweep you away, but her motive is double-edged. One side of it comes from the instinctually built-in, turbulent emotionality of her disorder. Intensity is her trump-card.

But the other side of her is driven by an equally instinctually and concentrated need to control you. The sexual experiences, while imposing, are motivated from a desire to dominate you, not please you. Her erotic intensity will be there in a cunning way tailored so you will not readily perceive it.

“I love you” means – “I need you to love me”. “That was the best ever for me” means – tell me “it was the best ever for you”. Show me that I have you.
Love: The Hater Phase
Once a Borderline Controller has succeeded and is in control, the Hater appears. This hateful part of her may have emerged before, but you probably will not see it in full, acidic bloom until she feels she has achieved a firm hold on your conscience and compassion. But when that part makes it's first appearance, rage is how it breaks into your life.

What gives this rage its characteristically borderline flavor is that it is very difficult for someone witnessing it to know what triggered it in reality. But that is its primary identifying clue: the actual rage-trigger is difficult for you to see. But in the Borderline's mind it always seems to be very clear. To her, there is always a cause. And the cause is always you. Whether it is the tone of your voice, how you think, how you feel, dress, move or breathe - or "the way you're looking at me," - she will always justify her rage by blaming you for "having to hurt her."

Rage reactions are also unpredictable and unexpected. They happen when you least expect it. And they can become extremely dangerous. It all serves to break you down over time. Your self esteem melts away. You change and alter your behavior in hopes of returning to the “Clinger Stage”. And periodically you will, but only to cycle back to the hater when you least expect it, possibly on her birthday, or your anniversary.

Instable relationships are a hallmark of Borderline Personality Disorder.

Roger Melton is a psychotherapist, teacher and writer in Los Angeles, California. For over twenty years, he has been a expert on the psychological impact of violence, dealing with exploitive-type men or women and managing the dangers of high-stress careers and occupations. He has frequently appeared on television and radio on 20/20 and PBS. As part of opening relations with the Soviet Union in 1989, he participated in mutual training programs at Moscow University.


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Odette
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posted September 07, 2014 07:10 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Odette     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Borderline rage and criticism is something to behold.. specially when they think they are being abandoned.

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Voix_de_la_Mer
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posted September 07, 2014 07:45 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Voix_de_la_Mer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The inability to manage emotions is what leads to all the behaviours outlined in the above article.

And, not every individual with BPD will cycle through those stages.

BPD is not that neat, and is influenced constantly by the environment (it is a relational disorder) which is also not neat, or predictable.


EDIT: And that article is clearly one of the more biased articles, indicating a professional who has lost sight of their neutrality, probably through not being able to "control" the BPD patient.
BPD is very hard on the ego of professionals who do not understand it.

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Odette
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posted September 07, 2014 08:07 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Odette     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I disagree.

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Voix_de_la_Mer
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posted September 07, 2014 08:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Voix_de_la_Mer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Obviously my view on this is coloured by my experience:

Mental health worker
Personal recovery from BPD
Honour's degree in Psychology

So, my opinion is not immune from bias, however, it is informed - both personally, and empirically.

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Odette
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posted September 07, 2014 08:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Odette     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote

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Ami Anne
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posted September 07, 2014 08:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Voix

I have not read the thread or even the article but I wanted to ask for YOUR experiences with this. I have wanted to ask for a while but did not know where to bring it up.

Do you care to talk about them? If not, that is fine but I would love to hear because you seem very different and that is lovely

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Voix_de_la_Mer
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posted September 07, 2014 08:51 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Voix_de_la_Mer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ami Anne:
Voix

I have not read the thread or even the article but I wanted to ask for YOUR experiences with this. I have wanted to ask for a while but did not know where to bring it up.

Do you care to talk about them? If not, that is fine but I would love to hear because you seem very different and that is lovely


Yes, no problem Ami. I will answer as best I can.

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Odette
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posted September 07, 2014 09:57 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Odette     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Voix - I do think parts of the article I posted are exaggerated.. but I've still noticed a pattern along these lines with BPD.

What are your thoughts on this page: http://www.mjtacc.com?
The author is a psychologist who also recovered from BPD.

Actually I've read dozens and dozens of articles on BPD in the past few weeks.. and maybe the article I posted was not the best source. But mjtacc.com definitely helped me better understand the disorder.
I'd really like to know your opinion about this page.
I'm sorry about my reaction earlier. I'm not in the best frame of mind when it comes to all this.

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Voix_de_la_Mer
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posted September 10, 2014 11:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Voix_de_la_Mer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Odette:
Voix - I do think parts of the article I posted are exaggerated.. but I've still noticed a pattern along these lines with BPD.

What are your thoughts on this page: http://www.mjtacc.com?
The author is a psychologist who also recovered from BPD.

Actually I've read dozens and dozens of articles on BPD in the past few weeks.. and maybe the article I posted was not the best source. But mjtacc.com definitely helped me better understand the disorder.
I'd really like to know your opinion about this page.
I'm sorry about my reaction earlier. I'm not in the best frame of mind when it comes to all this.


Odette,
I just want to let you know that I have started reading this article, and I will respond. I am having headaches just now though, and it is difficult to concentrate, so I cannot reply at the moment.

I appreciate your apology, but there is no need. I understand the consequences of mental health on families and friends, and I know it can be very disruptive. I have been on both sides myself.

I will come back to this when I am able to give a better quality response.

I appreciate you being open to my opinion.

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