posted January 15, 2011 03:13 PM            

that is something that you have to keep in mind

The tropical sign gets its traits from the following:
its mode - cardinal,fixed,mutable
its element - earth,air,fire,water
its planetary ruler - Sun,Moon,Mercury,Venus,Mars,Jupiter,Saturn
with the addition of Uranus,Neptune,Pluto
gender - masculine,feminine

there is also the seasons

and the association with day and night

the symbolism of Virgo constellation would be totally different from Tropical Virgo

Tropical Virgo traits would be based on
element being earth
mode being mutable
planetary ruler being Mercury as the night ruler for Virgo,a night sign
it being a feminine sign

You have to read the mythology behind Virgo to understand how the constellation Virgo traits would be like

that would mean reading the mythology of Astraea, the Greek Goddess of Justice and Demeter, the Greek Goddess of the Harvest.

There could even be a blending of traits.

Take what Diana Rosenberg said:

Even though the venerable constellation star-figures have been bypassed, each one overlaid with the sign that originally followed it, these archaic “pictures in the sky” retain and maintain an influence and power, not only in the symbolic, “mythic” areas of our lives, but in a physical way as well. To a surprising degree, the outer frame, shape, and condition of our physical bodies, and the enveloping myths that we enact in each lifetime, are derived from these primordial figures; they represent the personal incarnational drama each of us enacts, every day, in each lifetime.

Our tropical zodiac sign of Taurus, was originally the sky figure of the Bull; but now, each year, as the Sun moves through tropical Taurus (the sign, not the constellation) it is actually traveling through a skyscape of the stars of the Ram. And those of us who call ourselves “Aries” were actually born when the Sun traversed the Fishes. In just this way, each tropical sign now largely overlays the star figure (or morpheme) that originally lay behind it. Just as tropical Taureans have backed up onto the Ram, tropical Aries swim with the Fishes; tropical Pisceans have moved in on the figure of the Water-Pourer; tropical Aquarians now brave the stormy waves with the Sea-Goat, tropical Capricorns ride the back of the half-human, half-equine Archer, tropical Sagittarians attempt to tame the menacing Scorpion, tropical Scorpios nest in the Scales of Justice (which were, even very far back, both Scales & the great Scorpion’s extended claws). Tropical Librans now find their balance in the midst of the magnificent Virgin-goddess, tropical Virgoans have taken over the body & tail of the lion, but still possess the upper part of the head of the Virgin; tropical Leos, while still hanging on to the head and forepaws of the original Lion (hear them roar!), have the earlier 2/3 of their sign in the cautious, self-protective Crab; tropical Cancers now envelop the Twin brothers, tropical Geminis have bravely taken over the thundering, sensual Bull of Heaven, and we are back to where the zodiac started: the Bull, leader of the great cycle of signs from about 4,500 BCE (or about 3,000 BCE, depending upon whether you start the figure of the Bull at its horns, or its famous Royal eye), until about 2,300 BCE. Brilliant, red royal star Aldebaran, the Bull’s South Eye (now 9Gem43), marked the vernal equinox at the time that the first system of writing developed in Sumer (southern Iraq) at about 3,300 BCE. (Exactly opposite the Bull’s Eye, at 9Sag41, is red Antares, the fierce, royal Heart of the Scorpion).

These overlays, confusing at first, become enlightening when we search for the deeper layers of astrology’s primeval sources. For while I persist in the belief that the tropical zodiac is the most useful for day to day interpretation of horoscopes, I believe that it is the ancient sky-pattern figures – the actual constellations - that reveal the “fated” or mytho-symbolic level of our lives. Fate is a harsh word, conjuring images of helplessness, passivity, “what’s-the-use-of-trying” emotions; but the actuality is that the soul, in each lifetime, has chosen a body, sexual polarity, set of parents, locale, schooling, economic situation, and formative matrix that will best nurture the spirit and carry it forward in the direction it has chosen to explore.

It has been my experience in counseling that the most meaningful and exciting reactions from my clients come when I describe the constellation patterns and individual fixed stars on their charts (usually at the end of the reading). There is often a profound, personal emotional response that resonates on a “life-myth” level of being. Often a client’s deepest conflicts are delineated by the difference between the archetypes of the tropical signs and the original constellations: the variance, for instance, between proud, courageous tropical Leo, and his underlying sensitive, cautious, vulnerable star-Crab; or the tropical sign of Cancer, home-loving, self-protective, careful; but now fully overlaying the original Gemini siblings, who were rollicking, daring, athletic adventurers! It is the task of each of us to find ways to reconcile these differences and make them work creatively in our lives. Many Cancers, for instance, become actors, writers, or filmmakers, permitting themselves the vicarious experience of danger and adventure while actually remaining quite snug and safe, while others translate Cancer’s love of home to love of homeland, and become super-patriotic, adventuresome test pilots, astronauts, or Olympic athletes!

It was the realization that the original sky-figures carry powerful messages of the symbolic and mythic elements of our lives that led me to dig deep into astrology’s roots, to seek out the earliest sources of these ancient constellations and to rediscover and analyze their energies.
http://ye-stars.com/WP/?page_id=11

I can understand how my Sun works with its blend of tropical Sun in Scorpio and Virgo constellation

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No..I am not a Virgo.

posted January 15, 2011 03:31 PM            

VIRGO, THE VIRGIN Tropical Span: 52 degrees 21 Virgo – 13 Scorpio

From ancient times there are references to a maiden/goddess figure in this area of the sky, but her size and specific identity vary. She is a stand-ing figure, (in later times with wings), bearing a sheaf or stalk of wheat (Spica, Alpha Virginis, 24 Libra) in her hand, lying full length along the ecliptic rather than perpendicular to it. In Sumer and Akkad, our deepest sources of the great Babylonian celestial traditions, this was the Great Goddess of West Asia, the Lady of Heaven, both Virgin and Mother, originally lunar but later associated with Ishtar (Venus). The extremely ancient Mesopotamian lunar mansions list only Se-makh (“Seed-great”) which probably refers only to the bright star Spica, placed as it is right at the ecliptic (pidnu sa samê, Ab-sin, Absinnu) “furrow-of-heaven.” This seed, in the furrow, represented growth, fertility, productivity and dependence upon divine beneficence – long before any larger figure grew up around this splendid 1st magnitude star.

Spica’s confers her bountiful gifts in a number of fields, but music is perhaps one of her most blessed: within two degrees of the star is Jupiter in the charts of Mozart, Bach and Handel; it is Mars in the charts of Mendelssohn and de Falla, Mercury in Verdi’s horoscope, St Saen’s Saturn, Borodin’s Venus and Haydn’s Pluto; Puccini and Sir Arthur Sullivan both had Spica rising, and it culminated at the birth of violinist Yehudi Menuhin.
http://ye-stars.com/WP/?page_id=11

I will post about what Bernadette Brady says about Virgo constellation too

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No..I am not a Virgo.

posted January 15, 2011 04:01 PM            

This is what Bernadette Brady wrote
page 270 of BRADY'S BOOK OF FIXED STARS

Virgo, The Virgin

Lost in antiquity and mythologically connected to Leo, the ancient goddess in the sky was probably part of the original six zodiac constellations and is considered by some astronomers to be over 15,000 years old in human awareness (which was about the time the spring equinox occurred in this constellation!. See Star Map 22, page 271. The earliest expression of Virgo was about 2,900 B.C.E. with the construction of the Egyptian sphinx, believed to be a celebration and adoration of the two zodiac signs through which the sun traveled at the time of summer and the harvest. The sphinx had the head of the great harvest goddess and the body of a lion. However, Lockyer, in the late 19th century, implied that the sphinx may be far older than this date.

The Egyptians drew her on their Denderah zodiac, larger than she is now with no wings but clearly a goddess. They saw her as the thousand-named goddess Isis, wife of the dead Osiris and mother of the god Horus. She was seen as holding a wheat sheaf in her hand, which she dropped to form the Milky Way. She ruled the summer solstice about 5,000 B.C.E., when time began for the human race. The Golden Age was said to have ended when this goddess no longer governed the solstices as a crisis: they believed the goddess had left the earth to return to heaven in distress at the behavior of the humans of the Silver Age. The Milky Way, which was formed by the wheat dropping from the sheaf in her hand, is a piece of mythology reflecting the early belief that Milky Way was the burned out passage of the Sun, before humans discovered precession. For at that stage, there was no reason to assume that the path of the precession of the equinox was defined by the ecliptic.

The early Arabs called her Al Adhra al Nathifah, the Innocent Maiden. She was also known as the Pure Virgin and the Chinese knew her as the Frigid Maiden, which seems to be an unkind literal translation from the Chinese. To the Greeks, she was Demeter, goddess of the harvent, who withdraw herself and her seasons from the Earth when Pluto abducted her daughter. They also saw her as Erigone, a maiden who became so distressed at the ways of the human race that she hanged herself. By the time of Christianity, she had become Mary holding the Child.

Whatever image is chosen from across time and cultures, what is contained in Virgo is the archetype of the harvest-bringing goddess, pure and good, independent of the masculine. She gives the four seasons and is the source of the fertile Earth. Her emphasis at the time of harvest linked her to the gifts of the harvest and cycles of the Earth, rather than the more worldly pursuits of commerce and trade. Her purity was reflected in the concept of virginity. However, the earliest forms of this goddess are not "virginal" in the modern sense of the word. The older meaning of virgin was a woman who owned her own body and was therefore free to love whomever she desired. Virgo is a fruitful,fertile goddess, not a virginal, innocent adolescent.

Of course, it was Hades that abducted Demeter's daughter. Pluto is Roman version of Hades.

Also Bernadette Brady left out that the Virgo constellation was also known as Astraea, the Goddess of Justice.
The scales that Astraea were Libra constellation.

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No..I am not a Virgo.

posted January 15, 2011 04:19 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by VenusDiSirius:
And with such a wonderful meaning,how did virgo get so banal in its astrological explanation?

---

from ancient Greek astrologers like Hipparchus and Ptolemy

its element - earth
its mode - mutable
its ruler - Mercury as a night ruler
its gender - feminine

based on it being one of the signs of summer

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No..I am not a Virgo.

posted January 15, 2011 04:27 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Glaucus:

from ancient Greek astrologers like Hipparchus and Ptolemy

its element - earth
its mode - mutable
its ruler - Mercury as a night ruler
its gender - feminine

based on it being one of the signs of summer

---

posted January 15, 2011 04:31 PM            

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No..I am not a Virgo.

posted January 15, 2011 04:45 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by VenusDiSirius:
Western zodiac,then...
With such modern times likes this,sure we need modern sign that could cover all modern issues... Why not virgo,right..

---

I am confused by your comment

what do you mean by Virgo being a modern sign that covers all modern issues?

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No..I am not a Virgo.

posted January 15, 2011 04:50 PM            

that's what causes confusion

and lead to remarks like

"there is no way that I can be a Gemini when I am Cancer" thinking that Constellation Cancer is the same as Tropical Cancer in their meanings and that Constellation Gemini is the same as Tropical Gemini in their meanings

when tropical Cancer's meanings is based

on
water element
cardinal mode
its ruler, Moon

and being the sign associated with the beginning of the summer season

Tropical Gemini's Meanings

based on
air element
mutable mode
its ruler Mercury as day ruler

and being the sign associated with the latter part of spring

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No..I am not a Virgo.

posted January 15, 2011 04:51 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Glaucus:
I am confused by your comment

what do you mean by Virgo being a modern sign that covers all modern issues?

---

posted January 15, 2011 04:54 PM            

I think that all the modern zodiac signs could be signs that cover modern issues because they can change as times become more modern

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No..I am not a Virgo.

posted January 15, 2011 05:18 PM            

He wrote a book, Tetrabiblos which went over his concepts and methods

Here is his book online
You can actually read it for free

The Tetrabiblos, or 'four-part book' of Ptolemy is one of the most important surviving ancient texts on Astrology. Claudius Ptolemy, the second century C.E. author of this book, is best known as the originator of the Ptolemaic system. The Earth stood fixed at the center of the universe, with crystalline spheres within spheres whirling around it. In balance, the universe had a vast influence on earthly events, which was the basis for the belief in Astrology. This explanation stood for nearly a millenium and a half, bolstered by its acceptance as orthodoxy by the Catholic Church, until Copernicus and Galileo demolished it and placed the heliocentric (sun-centered) system in its place.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/astro/ptb/index.htm

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No..I am not a Virgo.

posted January 15, 2011 07:35 PM            

>>> DAILY MAIL January 15th, 2011 Page 5

‘Ophiuchus, 13th Sign of the zodiac’

From Daniel Bates
In New York

‘IF YOUR horoscope has never seemed tally with your life, there may be a good reason
- It could be out of date.
Astronomers have called for the zodiac signs to be over-hauled because they are no longer accurate.
The ancient Babylonians based zodiac signs on the constellation the sun was ‘in’ on the day a person was born. But the moon’s gravitational pull has since shifted the Earth on its axis and created a one-month shift in the stars’ alignment
Astronomers want to move all the star signs back one month and squeeze in a 13th sign, Ophiuchus, to help read just the zodiac calendar. The change will come as a shock to many who will discover they have been reading wrong star signs their entire lives.
Those under dominant and creative Leo could become a Cancer, which supposedly means they are moody and sensitive, while a passionate Scorpio could become a more diplomatic and balanced Libra. One woman wrote on an astrology website: ‘Oh great. I have a scorpion tattooed on my shoulder and now I’m a Libra!’
The change was suggested by American Parke Kunkie, but Daily Mail astrologer Jonathen Cainer says it’s the work of a ‘jealous astronomer’. He said:

“The Earth has moved but astrologers have not for years based on their predictions on the constellations. This is either wilfully ignorant or mischievous and malevolent and shows that the scientific community reacts in a bigoted way when faced with mysticism. This is a load of nonsense.” ‘

‘HOW YOUR STARS WOULD CHANGE’

CAPRICORN: Jan 21 – Feb 16
AQUARIOUS: Feb 17 – Mar 11
PISCES: Mar 12 – April 18
ARIES: Apr 19 – May 13
TAURUS: May 14 – June 21
GEMINI: June 22 – July 20
CANCER: July 21 – Aug 10
LEO: Aug 11 - Sep 16
VIRGO: Sept 17 – Oct 30
LIBRA: Oct 31 – Nov 23
SCORPIO: Nov 24 – Nov 29
OPHIUCHUS: Nov 30 – Dec 17
SAGITTARIUS: Dec 18 – Jan 20

posted January 15, 2011 08:37 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Glaucus:

As astrologers, I believe that we should know about Ptolemy's methods and concepts because that is what Mainstream Western Astrology developed from.

He wrote a book, Tetrabiblos which went over his concepts and methods

Here is his book online
You can actually read it for free

The Tetrabiblos, or 'four-part book' of Ptolemy is one of the most important surviving ancient texts on Astrology. Claudius Ptolemy, the second century C.E. author of this book, is best known as the originator of the Ptolemaic system. The Earth stood fixed at the center of the universe, with crystalline spheres within spheres whirling around it. In balance, the universe had a vast influence on earthly events, which was the basis for the belief in Astrology. This explanation stood for nearly a millenium and a half, bolstered by its acceptance as orthodoxy by the Catholic Church, until Copernicus and Galileo demolished it and placed the heliocentric (sun-centered) system in its place.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/astro/ptb/index.htm

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posted January 15, 2011 09:57 PM            

quote:

---

I'm shocked at how many people on this forum have no understanding of how Western Astrology actually works

---

I am a huge amowls fan...don't think I ever told you that.

I am also amazed how Kunkle and his news about the sidereal zodiac went viral [there is that word again!]

Eric Francis was laughing about how his site has never had so many hits from newbies checking out what their real sign is.

quote:

---

MN-Star Newspaper[]Astrologers across the country reported a wave of calls, e-mails or website hits from concerned clients. “People are more attached and loyal to their signs than they thought,” said Eric Francis, editor of PlanetWaves.net, who said he had had 25,000 hits on his site since midnight. “It’s interesting how many people are panicking their sign is wrong.”

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Raymond