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Author
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Topic: Why do women like to stay in abusive relationships? moon/Venus
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Libreo
Knowflake Posts: 1078
From: Australia
Registered: Sep 2011
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posted December 14, 2011 02:37 PM
  
quote:
Originally posted by amelia28:
Beautiful. You are trying to understand instead of judge. Judging is a piece of cake, anyone can do it. Trying to truly understand from a place of compassion is more challenging and shows you are more evolved. Judging stems from hate I feel and the hate stems from lack of understanding. The more judgy the more hate the person has inside of them.
....TOTALLY!
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Betty Boop
Knowflake Posts: 3377
From: Betty Boop Land
Registered: Sep 2010
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posted December 14, 2011 04:51 PM
Lonake - quote:
Someone who may have natal potential to be an abusive person, may be so very tame, until they meet someone where there is a perfect storm. Their Pluto on the other's Asc can trigger their natal Pluto/Mars opposition in a negative fashion if other aspects/transits/progressions are adding to it. One abusive person is not abusive to all people.
This is so accurate. My ex was not abusive to everyone - just me. His Mars/Pluto opp is on my Venus/Pluto opp (and obviously on my Nodes!). IP: Logged |
Maka
Knowflake Posts: 182
From:
Registered: Dec 2010
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posted December 14, 2011 06:00 PM
My cousin's friend was in an abusive relationship for years. She and their kids left the abusive boyfriend recently. She also did the necessary procdures i.e. restraining order, filing for domestic abuse.Except he always threatened to kill her prior to her and their children's depature. Of course she felt that if she did leave him he "really would" kill her, so that's why she stayed in the abusive relationship for sooooooooo long... Suffice to say he shot her in the face with a shotgun in front of thier children and breached the retraining order... Wonder why she and so many others have difficulty leaving abusive relationships? ..Oh and his reign of control was not over after that he asked to attend her funeral. IP: Logged |
lindisfarne
Knowflake Posts: 1108
From: she doesn't know that i left my urge in the icebox
Registered: Oct 2011
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posted December 14, 2011 06:13 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Betty Boop:
Lonake - This is so accurate. My ex was not abusive to everyone - just me. His Mars/Pluto opp is on my Venus/Pluto opp (and obviously on my Nodes!).
Would that suggest you enabled his abuse? Since he was only that way towArds you? IP: Logged |
Malena
Knowflake Posts: 237
From:
Registered: Apr 2011
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posted December 14, 2011 06:14 PM
quote:
Originally posted by RegardesPlatero:
[B]Some people who have had very stable and good home lives (thinking of people whom I know personally) think of everyone as good and see the good in people immediately. They might feel like something is off or weird about a person, but dismiss it quickly. So, people with good self esteem can also become victims. I'd also say that some people just naturally have strong personalities or high self-esteem or had parents who were either feminists/supported women's rights, so some people were brought up to recognize abuse and take action, whereas others without that upbringing would not have the same advantage.While I do think that the first time someone hits you should be the last, and I can understand lindisfarne's point about not putting up with abuse, I also think that this is easier for some than for others, so I do try to not judge people in that situation. After all, I screwed up big-time recently, and have screwed up really bad in other situations, so I can't really say that I've never done anything that I regret. In fact, I'm going through regret right now. And, as others have pointed out, practical things like having no home, fear of being killed (or of having loved ones killed), children, money, etc. also come into play, along with mental/emotional health.
These are SUCH great points. A couple of years ago I read about a woman who had been murdered by an abusive boyfriend. The woman was a feminist blogger who also did work at a rape crisis center. So many people reacted with, "how could this have happened to HER? How did she of all people not see the signs?" What they missed is that when he started abusing her, it was twice as difficult for her to admit it because she had built up a reputation as someone who was a "strong woman" who understood predatory interpersonal dynamics. Even she was vulnerable to the feeling of shame that often keeps abuse victims from speaking out. Someone who is strong, assertive and well-adjusted can sometimes have trouble admitting *to themselves* that a certain behavior is abuse, especially if they have no prior experience at recognizing it. I also think the question "Why did you stay in the abusive relationship so long?" usually doesn't accomplish much except to demoralize the abuse victim. Many women are afraid to admit they've been abused exactly because they know they will be asked "Why did you stay so long?" or "Why did you let him do that?" when the "why?" questions should really be directed at whichever partner decided to be an abuser. If you stayed a week after the first time he hit you... why did it take you a week to figure it out? If you stayed a month after the first time he hit you... why did you wait a month to figure it out? If you stayed a year after the first time he hit you... why did you wait a year to figure it out? If you stayed ten years... why did it take you ten years to figure it out? No matter how long it takes someone to leave an abusive relationship, someone will always get judgmental about it. "Why did it take so long for me to leave?" is a valid question for the victim to ask of him/herself, but coming from strangers, isn't always constructive. IP: Logged |
lindisfarne
Knowflake Posts: 1108
From: she doesn't know that i left my urge in the icebox
Registered: Oct 2011
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posted December 14, 2011 07:10 PM
@Malit's not demoralizing. it's reality.
so, victims are not allowed to be asked why they stayed? because it is a good question. fearing questions like that is nonsensical. it's called Socratic questioning- a way of digging deeper into an issue to find understanding. IP: Logged |
lindisfarne
Knowflake Posts: 1108
From: she doesn't know that i left my urge in the icebox
Registered: Oct 2011
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posted December 14, 2011 07:16 PM
Why should it be directed to the abuser? So the victim won't assume their responsibility too? Both are responsible at some point.IP: Logged |
Lonake
Moderator Posts: 8748
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted December 14, 2011 07:50 PM
Betty  so true. It's the way the energies collide..
.
. quote:
Originally posted by Maka:
Except he always threatened to kill her prior to her and their children's depature. Of course she felt that if she did leave him he "really would" kill her, so that's why she stayed in the abusive relationship for sooooooooo long...Suffice to say he shot her in the face with a shotgun in front of thier children and breached the retraining order... Wonder why she and so many others have difficulty leaving abusive relationships? ..Oh and his reign of control was not over after that he asked to attend her funeral.
This is true, they do sometimes kill. I don't think abusive men are to be messed with, they kill more often than the women.
If you're going to leave you have to do it very carefully. But ideally you leave once you can sniff that you're involved with someone who does not care for your safety. There are warnings for such behavior.IP: Logged |
Lonake
Moderator Posts: 8748
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted December 14, 2011 07:57 PM
quote:
Originally posted by lindisfarne:
Both are responsible at some point.
Completely agree, they are both a part of the problem. I can't stand for the victim mentality any more than I can stand for the perpetrator's obnoxious lack of control.
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RegardesPlatero
Moderator Posts: 4367
From: Storybrooke, Mr. Gold's Shop
Registered: Sep 2011
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posted December 14, 2011 08:03 PM
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Lonake
Moderator Posts: 8748
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted December 14, 2011 08:05 PM
I'm not sure if asking what made them stay is productive in any capacity. Maybe if they are in therapy, that issue might be brought up, but to just ask as a general question, the answer really does not matter.
What matters is their safety.IP: Logged |
cappy1277
Moderator Posts: 1243
From: philadelphia,pa
Registered: Jul 2009
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posted December 14, 2011 08:44 PM
Unless its coming from a trained professional who specializes in therapy- that question isn't going to sound right. Why did you stay? Like it has been stated, leaving may incur bigger consequences. Unfortunately, in order to enact a safety plan that is beneficial for the victim, you have to appease the abuser...long enough to have a concrete plan. His attempts on my life were never when we were together. It was always when I got situated into a new house. I had to move 6 times in one year. With my kids. Imagine that....retraining orders are nothing but a piece of paper that tacks on more charges when something happens. Its not a shield for protection. Abusers are crafty people. IP: Logged |
Capriquarius
unregistered
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posted December 14, 2011 08:45 PM
Topic starter, what is your astrological conclusion based on the feedback you've received thus far? Appreciate the Socratic stuff but that's not the purpose of this section. This is Astrology 2.0. What you're asking about probably belongs in Global Unity or something. I follow this thread hoping to gain some astrological insight on my past choices but you keep directing this thread on a non-astrological track.I have Mars (4th House) square Pluto natally, if that provides a clue to your queries. What do you make of that in relation to domestic violence? IP: Logged |
lindisfarne
Knowflake Posts: 1108
From: she doesn't know that i left my urge in the icebox
Registered: Oct 2011
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posted December 14, 2011 09:04 PM
quote:
Originally posted by cappy1277:
Unless its coming from a trained professional who specializes in therapy- that question isn't going to sound right. Why did you stay? .
That doesn't make sense....... Trained professionals who specialize in therapy are capable of being terrible at what they do. I think Reg's disclosing of her experience and her therapist is a great example of the misunderstanding some people have of therapists, it's insinuated that trained professionals must all know what they are doing, Thats not true. I'm also not a professional but I have every right to ask questions if anyone is offended they are completely free to walk on by.
Now I'm curious to what someone else posted, about abusers abusing not everyone but specifc people. Someone posted, I'm going to paraphrase here, but nataly abusers are not well.. abusive but when meeting specific people, that behavior is unleashed and now really curious to why and how that happens.
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Lonake
Moderator Posts: 8748
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted December 14, 2011 09:23 PM
^ That was me, it has to do with how 2 energies interact, this can be seen both in natals and the synastry. I explained it a bit in my 1st post here. IP: Logged |
Capriquarius
unregistered
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posted December 17, 2011 03:06 AM
I stayed out of sheer stupidity. No excuse.IP: Logged |
Malena
Knowflake Posts: 237
From:
Registered: Apr 2011
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posted December 17, 2011 10:54 AM
quote:
Originally posted by lindisfarne:
@Mal
it's not demoralizing. it's reality.
I am also talking about reality. You may intend "Why did you stay?" a certain way, and that's fine. But realistically, that is not how the question is received by a lot of abuse victims, many of whom have already been shamed/psychologically weakened by their abusers. To be further questioned "well, why did you let it happen?" is placing further guilt and shame on someone who may not be able to handle it at that moment. I'm not saying victims should never examine their own behavior. But it's not your place (or anyone else's) to dictate when and how that self-examination should happen. It's also arrogant to assume the abuse victim is not ALREADY examining their own behavior. Just because they aren't doing it out loud, for your benefit, doesn't mean it isn't happening. This is reality too. quote:
so, victims are not allowed to be asked why they stayed?
Um... Please go back and quote where I said that? You can't, because I didn't. Pointing out the problems with a certain question is not saying victims can never be questioned. In fact I specifically stated that victims should examine their own baggage to see what led them into the abusive relationship. At the same time, the world is full of judgmental people who are ready and willing to tell an abuse victim why he/she sucks or is an idiot for making the choices they made. Many abuse victims KNOW THIS, that's why they are often ashamed and embarrassed to speak out and leave. So dumping more "Well why did you make such bad choices?" on them often just helps perpetuate the cycle. It often aids the abuser by making the victim more self-doubting and ashamed. Note that I am not specifying genders here. Both male and female abuse victims can be susceptible to this. quote:
fearing questions like that is nonsensical.
I'm just telling you the realistic effect these questions have. Maybe it doesn't align with your ideals of how things should be, but, that's life. quote:
it's called Socratic questioning- a way of digging deeper into an issue to find understanding.
If that's your intention? Great. In the real world? Those questions are often used to minimize and discount the reality of domestic abuse. If you wish to achieve anything constructive with your questions, you must be aware of their psychological impact. quote:
Why should it be directed to the abuser?
Why shouldn't it? Why shouldn't we ask where abusers learned to abuse? Why shouldn't we ask what social messages might have reinforced the idea that abuse is an acceptable tool in a relationship? Why shouldn't we ask "Why did you select a partner you thought you could get away with abusing?" and "Why did you abuse your partner until s/he finally left you?" I mean call me old fashioned, but I believe in placing the responsibility for abuse on the shoulders of the abuser. That doesn't mean the victim has NO responsibility for his/her response to the abuse, but being responsible for a response to abuse and being responsible for the abuse are two different things. If you truly believe there are two people who have responsibility, you would have no problem with questioning the abuser just as hard as the victim. IP: Logged |
YoursTrulyAlways
Knowflake Posts: 4053
From:
Registered: Oct 2011
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posted December 17, 2011 11:11 AM
Would you categorize sarcastic mental control and silent emotional manipulation as being abusive?IP: Logged |
RegardesPlatero
Moderator Posts: 4367
From: Storybrooke, Mr. Gold's Shop
Registered: Sep 2011
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posted December 17, 2011 11:17 AM
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enchantress299
Knowflake Posts: 562
From:
Registered: May 2009
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posted December 17, 2011 11:42 AM
quote:
That doesn't make sense....... Trained professionals who specialize in therapy are capable of being terrible at what they do. I think Reg's disclosing of her experience and her therapist is a great example of the misunderstanding some people have of therapists, it's insinuated that trained professionals must all know what they are doing, Thats not true. I'm also not a professional but I have every right to ask questions if anyone is offended they are completely free to walk on by.
The truth is a *good* therapist would never ask WHY someone stayed in an abusive relationship. One, that question is incredibly insensitive, and therapists are supposed to be helping a person heal, not make them worse, and two we are specifically taught not to ask WHY in therapy (I have a degree in Psych and a MA in Counseling, just FYI). Actual use of the word WHY puts people on the defensive, because it means the person has to validate their actions to someone who knows nothing of the situation. You use other lines of questioning to get to the root of the problem. I think it is dumb when people say all therapists are crap because there are *SOME* therapists that are crap. There are some doctors that are crap too, but that doesn't mean we stop going to doctors... We just stop going to THAT doctor. Sorry, I totally got off topic with that, but that's a big pet peeve of mine. Anyway, I have enjoyed this thread. It's interesting to me, though I have never been in an abusive relationship. I'm glad it hasn't gone into a flame war. IP: Logged |
Malena
Knowflake Posts: 237
From:
Registered: Apr 2011
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posted December 17, 2011 11:46 AM
quote:
Originally posted by YoursTrulyAlways:
Would you categorize sarcastic mental control and silent emotional manipulation as being abusive?
I'm not sure exactly what behaviors you mean by "sarcastic mental control" or "silent emotional manipulation" (I have an idea what you mean but don't want to make assumptions), but in my view yes, emotional abuse is abuse. IP: Logged |
Lonake
Moderator Posts: 8748
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted December 17, 2011 11:55 AM
quote:
Originally posted by enchantress299:
The truth is a *good* therapist would never ask WHY someone stayed in an abusive relationship.
No, a therapist is open to exploring reasons when the client seems comfortable with the idea, ideally when the client brings up the issue, and sometimes even when they don't seem that way, but it would be versed in a question or remark that hints at the problem, gauging whether the client is ready to basically dive in. It would be strange for the therapist to ask that as a pointed, direct question, it would be too abrasive, unless the client was in an abrasive frame of mind, the client should be guiding the session, and a good therapist asks the right questions, in the right manner, at the right time.IP: Logged |
mir
Knowflake Posts: 857
From:
Registered: May 2009
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posted December 17, 2011 12:14 PM
quote:
I mean call me old fashioned, but I believe in placing the responsibility for abuse on the shoulders of the abuser.
Well maybe not the 'modern thought' but I strongly agree!
I've been there. I mean in the past I placed the responsibility to an absurd degree on shoulders of the victim.
By rationalizing everything I didn't only deny my own feelings and emotions but also those of others. I look back at myself as being a robot those days, a victim of a system in which everything needs to be rationalized. I so had lost the connection with my own body that I became literally ill. That's my story and now I'm sort of allergic for let's say 'easy thoughts'. IP: Logged |
Lonake
Moderator Posts: 8748
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted December 17, 2011 02:07 PM
^ That makes sense, I forgot the term, but people have an inherent need to change their thinking if a new issue comes around that doesn't corroborate their previous hypothesis, based solely on their emotional dynamic/response to that new situation. If they didn't do this, there would be a mental-emotional disconnect, and that leads to depression, psychoses. Happens all the time.
People rationalize their actions/choices, based on past experiences, for a greater feeling of being 'in the right', but it is largely done to prevent a breakdown and to affirm one's stance.IP: Logged |
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