posted July 05, 2012 07:45 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ail221:
Some women do and some don't but I come across a lot more women bemoaning waiting for a guy to make the first move. While there are some men who hate when a woman makes the first move. No one wants to be rejected essentially. -Shrug

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posted July 05, 2012 07:58 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
well instead of complaining about having to wait for the guy, they should get off their butts and ask lol.

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posted July 05, 2012 09:29 PM            

*in my baritone voice* Macho, macho maaaaaaaan....

posted July 05, 2012 09:40 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lazyscarecrow:
Leo sun, Aries moon, Sagittarius rising.

*in my baritone voice* Macho, macho maaaaaaaan....

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Sorry, but !!!

posted July 05, 2012 10:47 PM            

Aqu rising, so neutral ground there.

posted July 05, 2012 11:03 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ail221:
Its not that simple for some women for example; women who come from traditional patriarchal backgrounds infused with religion that frown on female assertiveness. It's universally accepted a man should make the first move initiating the first move; this cultural norm doesn't apply towards women universally.

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posted July 05, 2012 11:05 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
yea i understand that its that way in some parts of the world but not in the u.s.

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posted July 06, 2012 12:03 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by ail221:
Riggghhht.....no this exists in the U.S.

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posted July 06, 2012 03:42 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Hera:
Believe me, I understand.. I don't know, I faked it for a while (confidence) and at some point grew into it or got better at faking idk. I've been called super nasty things to my face.. starting with daddy dearest and then a few other ppl as well.
Thing is, you're not gonna get there if you're still bitter with us. I know, you have to live out your anger and please do. It was their opinion, they have a right to an opinion, but it is theirs, give it back to them. It does not belong to you. Please form a different opinion about yourself, one that belongs strictly to you.
I also have stickies in my bathroom saying I love myself.. those still ain't working haha.
Wanna start a support group? lol

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I agree.

To be honest, I do think that women can pick up on the bitterness and frustration. I'm the pot calling the kettle black here, but I do think that you take rejection from women extremely personally. No woman ever owes a man a date, and vice versa. Her reasons for saying no could have nothing to do with you. Her reasons for being rude, if she is, may also have nothing to do with you. I myself am very cold to guys and try to be unapproachable because I feel threatened when they do that. I literally feel violently angry when flirted with or hit on. I don't act violently and wouldn't unless touched or verbally/physically threatened, but my point is that for some women, being hit on by anyone is undesired, and it's not you personally. On top of that, even after considering and exploring the possibility of dating, I've come to realize that I really am pretty much asexual and have no interest. There are, I'm sure, other women like me. So, again, those are just two examples. My point in mentioning them is to help you remember that it's not always about you when a woman turns you down.

On the other hand, though, I do think that you should be honest with yourself and see if you are doing anything off-putting (e.g., scat humor, crudeness, vulgarity, swearing too much, being really weird or accidentally coming off as creepy, not making eye contact or making too much/inappropriate eye contact, standing too close, appearance, hygiene, etc). I think that asking a group of honest, female friends (like at least 2-3) who would be straight with you and tell you the truth would be very helpful and useful. Feedback like that would be valuable.

And, as I've said before, change your type. Know what kind of person you are, what general kinds of people are drawn to the kind of person that you are, and go from there. Picking incompatible people is setting yourself up for failure.

posted July 06, 2012 03:48 AM            

I wouldn't mind being a guy. There are good and bad things about being either, really. Being a guy would be nice because I would have less fear of rape and wouldn't have to worry about certain things. Men don't have periods or get pregnant, plus they're physically stronger usually, so they have advantages in how they're built. Plus, it's easier for a man to get fixed, and getting fixed is something that I definitely want but will have to wait until I'm in my mid-30s to even try to get (even Planned Parenthood won't do it, which is disappointing given how they claim to support women's rights).

On the other hand, though, men lose their hair, don't live as long (though that's not necessarily bad in my opinion, if you're like sick or in pain or something), and have more limits with fashion choices than women do. Probably with design choices as well. Being pretty much asexual, I get judged enough as it is, but it would probably be worse if I were a man.

posted July 06, 2012 04:01 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lazyscarecrow:
Leo sun, Aries moon, Sagittarius rising.

*in my baritone voice* Macho, macho maaaaaaaan....

Well, maybe my Taurus Mars might come off more sensual than aggressive I do feel like it would be easier to express a lot of aspects in my chart if I were a guy. Sex drive, for example. Or is that TMI?

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hahaha...I'm picturing a scarecrow (since your name is LazyScarecrow) wearing like a wrestling outfit (Randy "Macho Man" Savage made me think wrestling) and parading around or something. The face of the scarecrow in my head looks kind of like a gingerbread man, like the one from "Shrek".

carry on.

posted July 06, 2012 05:28 AM            

My Capricorn Sun makes me pretty reserved at times too, but Capricorn does have good ‘guy potential’ in the sense that this sign is a go getter…. Maybe if I waited to be born under Moon in Leo, or came out early during Moon in Gemini I’d have made a better guy.

I’ve got a Sagittarius Asc which I think would be great on a guy, only in my case Venus in Sag falls into the 1st house. It makes me come across in person as super sweet and easy going… On a guy this might make me seem like a push over! Not that everyone with Venus in the 1st is a push over, in my case I could see how it might translate this way, though. Maybe if I were a guy I’d be better off with Leo rising, so my Mars in Leo would fall into the 1st house, or Aries rising…. If I were a guy I’d wanna be one of those super confident alpha types that all the girls like…The kind of guy that I like now as a girl…

I honestly feel bad for guys that struggle with their confidence when young. I think this is harder on boys then it is on girls, who are given more leeway with shyness. On the other hand, as a girl it’s not always clear what the right thing to do is when you like someone. Some guys don’t mind you making the first move, others are actually even turned off by it!

In my case, I think I prefer the more traditional roles, with the man making the first move and asking you out. My Cancer Moon, and 1st house Venus, just enjoys it more if he takes initiative. I like to be chased, pursued, wanted, and cherished… All those typical girly girl type desires… The tricky part is I only wanna be chased by someone I’m really attracted to… And that’s not always what you get.

When a girl likes a guy, she’ll be flirty and encouraging toward him when he makes a move… She’ll smile a lot, and try to keep the conversation going. If she’s flat out not interested, she may be polite (or you never know, she could be rude), but she’ll be very ‘flat’ in her expression toward the guy. She won’t smile much, and she’ll keep trying to cut the guy off, and end the conversation… Some guys don’t seem to be able to discern this difference…. And they wind up being labeled ’creepy’.

I’m not totally against going after a guy, though… If I really, really liked him and he seemed to be doubting this, or even unaware of me… I’d probably do something to put myself in his path, and demonstrate my interest. I wouldn’t go so far as to ask him out, but I’d make it clear that the opportunity was there if he were willing to step up to the plate.

Perhaps women who have very masculine parts to their charts wouldn’t mind being the one to make the 1st move, or would maybe even enjoy it…. Maybe these types of girls would be best suited to guys with a strong receptive vibe to their chart… Like a strong Moon, or Venus, or a preponderance of feminine signs in his chart. Maybe certain kinds of synastry would help with this too, like his Moon or Venus aspecting her Sun or Mars.

posted July 06, 2012 06:16 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
oh there's that magic word! lmao everyone tells me to be confident, but its easier said than done, i'm not gonna lie i'm not confident when it comes to talking to women because i have little success and alot of bad experiences. the guys that are confident have success and get women so naturally they are going to be confident. i have had women call me ugly to my face and lots of other insults, just because i tried to ask them out or strike up a conversation, im curious as to how women could expect me to be confident when so many of her fellow women folk have so effectively ripped all my ego to shreds and then set it on fire.

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I'm sorry that this has happened to you, and I know that it is easy to say... be more confident, don't take it to heart and change yourself.

You know what though? All those women who are telling you not to take it to heart etc. are the same ones that say there are a lot of women around the world moping and complaining about unrequited love. So this isn't something that just you are dealing with. There are so many women out there who don't know what they want and don't know what is good for them. The same is true for men, there are plenty of men who don't know what they want and don't know what is good for them.

This is why Women choose men who are liars, cheats, manipulative or other negative superlatives.

This is why Men choose women who are liars, cheats, manipulative or other negative superlatives.

The major difference between Men and Women is a sense of value. I don't know explicitly, or implicitly. However, I do feel that most Men have more respect for themselves and don't take **** or sit around in a bad place. On the other hand I have seen plenty of women who consistently treat themselves poorly. Choose to be with people who treat them poorly in a variety of ways. Maybe women are more emotional, and they have a harder time seeing things objectively. Maybe thats true.

Its frustrating for me to be out in the world and see so many men and women making these decisions.

I sit here typing this as a good looking, intelligent, creative, emotionally honest and courageous, curious, kind, caring, empathetic, somewhat funny, sociable, chatty, confident in my own abilities kind of man. I know all this because this is how I feel and this is what people tell me. That I have a lovely personality and that i'm an amazing guy.

You know what? It doesn't matter. Because some women would rather go out with jerks who mis-treat them, pull them around and generally disrespect them.

Am I bitter about this? Of course I am, how could I not be bitter when I am better than the choices some of these women make in every single way? I move on eventually though, it takes me time because, and this will sound cliche but I feel very deeply and very strongly about very few people I meet in a romantic sense.

I've been called intense and overwhelming, and hey thats ok. I get that, I understand that. I can't help that I have strong feelings for people and I wouldn't want to change it for anything in the world, because I like that about me. I'd rather care and feel deeply about someone than to only be capable of surface emotions.

The only thing I want, is for someone to be able to move my very soul, and to know that I do the same for them.

So you ask could I be a woman, or would I want to be a woman?

My answer is no, I wouldn't want to be a woman because I love who I am, this is who I am and I am not meant to be any other way. I don't think i'd make a good woman because I wouldn't take **** from guys, I wouldn't stand for being mis-treated but most of all I wouldn't be able to put up with all the jerks and idiots out there.

Someday women won't just see me as an amazing guy, they will actually come to realize it and believe it. And this is true for all the guys out there who are not the idiots I see every day.

ASC in Leo 19th
Sun Virgo 29th
Moon Gemini 29th
Mercury Libra 3rd
Venus in Scorpio 11th
Mars in Libra 1st
Jupiter in Cancer 8th
Saturn in Capricorn 7th
Uranus in Capricorn 1st
Neptune in Capricorn 9th
Pluto in Scorpio 13th

A host of asteroids in Scorpio, Eros, Sappho, Cupido, and Lilith among them.

posted July 06, 2012 06:16 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
yea i understand that its that way in some parts of the world but not in the u.s.

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(from "Psych")

I just saw this now and I'm just going to be direct and honest. I really don't feel like you have a full understanding of the feminine experience, what it is to be a woman, what women have faced, what women have been through, etc.

I think that taking a gender studies/women's studies class, actually having long and meaningful conversations with female friends/acquaintances, studying women's history, and really researching this at length from credible sources might really help you out a lot with your difficulties/issues with women. Understanding how a woman experiences the world and how her foremothers experienced it (as much as possible) would be an important first step.

While the US is much more progressive than some places in terms of women's rights, it also has a very long way to go. Each wave of feminism did bring positive changes for women, and has made things better, but (a) backlash to feminism has set some things back; (b) our rights are still being assaulted every day (such reproductive rights, which are constantly under attack), and (c) we still face issues like rape, sexual assault, and domestic violence very disproportionately to men. We experience the world in very different ways than men, and in order for both sides to get along and really see each other as equals, it's important that men understand what the world is like for us.

posted July 06, 2012 07:22 AM            

I didn't really mean for this thread to stir up so much debate about gender roles,I thought it might be more playful, but I get where it's coming from.

People tend to be quick to defend or dismiss traditional roles between the sexes without realizing their personal preferences often influence them more than they know in terms of their comfort level in their role. That's what I was wondering about. What's in your chart to help or hinder how easy it is to show traditional "qualities" of your gender as you currently stand in whatever context of society or attitudes you live in.

As for whether it's widely acceptable for girls to initiate or not etc, think about this , whether you are male of female:

You see someone of the opposite sex at a party, like really really your type and they are glowing with energy for you, is your first initial impulse:

a) I NEED to go talk to them
b) I HOPE they come talk to me

I'm making the guess, that across the board, internationally, a majority of men feel A and a majority of women feel B. Nature vs nurture, who knows, but if you feel the opposite, does it make you feel like you have a more difficult time navigating the carved out path of gender relations?

ps: in my experience, I've heard lots of men say they think it would be cool if a woman initiated, but without realizing it, they also talk about needing a "challenge" and liking the "hunt" and they dismiss the woman that's making it easy for him, while pining after the woman they need to chase and convince! Ladies, am I right? Am I right?

posted July 06, 2012 08:27 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by RegardesPlatero:

hahaha...I'm picturing a scarecrow (since your name is LazyScarecrow) wearing like a wrestling outfit (Randy "Macho Man" Savage made me think wrestling) and parading around or something. The face of the scarecrow in my head looks kind of like a gingerbread man, like the one from "Shrek".

carry on.

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posted July 06, 2012 08:50 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Swift Freeze:

I sit here typing this as a good looking, intelligent, creative, emotionally honest and courageous, curious, kind, caring, empathetic, somewhat funny, sociable, chatty, confident in my own abilities kind of man. I know all this because this is how I feel and this is what people tell me. That I have a lovely personality and that i'm an amazing guy.

You know what? It doesn't matter. Because some women would rather go out with jerks who mis-treat them, pull them around and generally disrespect them.

Am I bitter about this? Of course I am, how could I not be bitter when I am better than the choices some of these women make in every single way? I move on eventually though, it takes me time because, and this will sound cliche but I feel very deeply and very strongly about very few people I meet in a romantic sense.

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This!

I think some women are insecure, and they mistake being an as$hole for being ‘strong’.

If a guy is actually respectful to them, they start wondering if he’s some kind of wimp. Personally, I think this is a type of sickness that comes from having very low self esteem. It’s a sad thing to watch, if it’s someone you care for letting themselves be dissed by some guy just because on some level they don’t feel they deserve any better. Or, because they somehow think that him calling her names, cheating on her, standing her up and not apologizing, and generally not being respectful of her feelings, is ‘evidence’ that he’s a ‘real man’ (And I use the term loosely here)

posted July 06, 2012 12:26 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by RegardesPlatero:
I agree.

To be honest, I do think that women can pick up on the bitterness and frustration. I'm the pot calling the kettle black here, but I do think that you take rejection from women extremely personally. No woman ever owes a man a date, and vice versa. Her reasons for saying no could have nothing to do with you. Her reasons for being rude, if she is, may also have nothing to do with you. I myself am very cold to guys and try to be unapproachable because I feel threatened when they do that. I literally feel violently angry when flirted with or hit on. I don't act violently and wouldn't unless touched or verbally/physically threatened, but my point is that for some women, being hit on by anyone is undesired, and it's not you personally. On top of that, even after considering and exploring the possibility of dating, I've come to realize that I really am pretty much asexual and have no interest. There are, I'm sure, other women like me. So, again, those are just two examples. My point in mentioning them is to help you remember that it's not always about you when a woman turns you down.

On the other hand, though, I do think that you should be honest with yourself and see if you are doing anything off-putting (e.g., scat humor, crudeness, vulgarity, swearing too much, being really weird or accidentally coming off as creepy, not making eye contact or making too much/inappropriate eye contact, standing too close, appearance, hygiene, etc). I think that asking a group of honest, female friends (like at least 2-3) who would be straight with you and tell you the truth would be very helpful and useful. Feedback like that would be valuable.

And, as I've said before, change your type. Know what kind of person you are, what general kinds of people are drawn to the kind of person that you are, and go from there. Picking incompatible people is setting yourself up for failure.

I'd also say, too, to go to women for advice about women rather than men. Get information "from the inside" rather than going off of assumptions from the "outside". And, too, even though I just mentioned types, not every girl is the same, even if they're the same 'type'. That is, even people of similar backgrounds/personalities will have variations and differences, so generalizations can only go so far. Always get to know a girl as an individual.

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posted July 06, 2012 12:35 PM            

I definitely think I'd be pretty comfortable as a guy! Although I do appreciate the dressing up I get to do as a girl. I have a lot of Mars aspects, an Aries stellium, and barely any water in my chart. I'm quite weird about who I empathize with, and often times I just want to give people solutions to their problems and move on rather than having to sit and listen and empathize and talk about it. I don't see the point in that. And it's easier for me to think with my brain than my heart. And I don't like acknowledging my emotions a lot of the time.

posted July 06, 2012 12:52 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lotis White:
This!

I think some women are insecure, and they mistake being an as$hole for being ‘strong’.

If a guy is actually respectful to them, they start wondering if he’s some kind of wimp. Personally, I think this is a type of sickness that comes from having very low self esteem. It’s a sad thing to watch, if it’s someone you care for letting themselves be dissed by some guy just because on some level they don’t feel they deserve any better. Or, because they somehow think that him calling her names, cheating on her, standing her up and not apologizing, and generally not being respectful of her feelings, is ‘evidence’ that he’s a ‘real man’ (And I use the term loosely here)

Not all women are like this. There are plenty out there that, while we like guys who are confident, are not willing to put up with disrespectful behavior, meanness or bullying… I know I wouldn’t! speaking for myself, I want a guy who’s nice to me, treats me with respect, an doesn’t try to undermine my self esteem by being a jerk.

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posted July 06, 2012 01:12 PM            

Is it possible you are attracted to these flakier types of ladies? They tend to be childlike and docile which can stir strong masculine impulses in men. They are very appearance focused so as to please men and use all the trappings that indicate willingness to please (high heels, make-up, revealing clothes etc). They are very open and approachable to men initially as they give off the girly receptive vibe. These qualities can be a huge draw for men, unless they are attuned to seeing deeper than that.

Just curious if that's the type of woman you are drawn to on the surface.

Women who aren't game for a-holes generally don't make themselves as available and are more challenging to approach, but often are more kind, appreciate your effort more and are more active in giving and showing interest if you don't act like a d-bag.

Shallow women are unlikely to be considerate, empathetic or kind. Do you think you may be approaching too many of this type of woman?

posted July 06, 2012 01:30 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by redshift:
AquaGuy, just sounds like you aren't noticing and approaching a certain type of women that isn't like that. I know TONS of women that would never put up with players, douchebags or any of the that sy***, myself included.

Is it possible you are attracted to these flakier types of ladies? They tend to be childlike and docile which can stir strong masculine impulses in men. They are very appearance focused so as to please men and use all the trappings that indicate willingness to please (high heels, make-up, revealing clothes etc). They are very open and approachable to men initially as they give off the girly receptive vibe. These qualities can be a huge draw for men, unless they are attuned to seeing deeper than that.

Just curious if that's the type of woman you are drawn to on the surface.

Women who aren't game for a-holes generally don't make themselves as available and are more challenging to approach, but often are more kind, appreciate your effort more and are more active in giving and showing interest if you don't act like a d-bag.

Shallow women are unlikely to be considerate, empathetic or kind. Do you think you may be approaching too many of this type of woman?

I find lots of men have low expectations of women and therefore are totally blind to the women that rise above those expectations.

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