posted September 12, 2012 10:32 PM            

Eventually the personal planet individual wants OUT so they leave... or in any case, they do something to 'break free'.
At this point Saturn stands on their pride... They never admit to any negative/jerky behaviour... and all they have to say is:

"Regardless of how I behaved - the bottom line is.. I did NOT leave you. YOU left ME."

And they use this ^ to guilt trip the personal planet individual... as though 'not leaving' is a badge of honour...
It is like they expect the personal planet man/woman - to stay with them through thick and thin no matter what happens and no matter *how* they behave.

posted September 13, 2012 01:06 AM            

Scorpy - hey!! I feel like I've been abducted to Scorpio land and my LL friends have not seen me in ... weeks. How've you been?

My thread is indeed about him. His yr of birth is actually '88... so I'm very bummed about having looked at the wrong chart (with '87). He actually has a Taurus Moon/Sco Merc/Libra Venus and Aries Mars. His Mars is (unfortunately!) square his Cappy Saturn and also square my own Cappy Mars.... fun fun... although it explains *a LOT*.

I don't want to diss him because there is something about him that is very loveable... and then - there's everything else. I just don't know.
We seem almost perfect for each other in some ways - but other things about our interaction are darn right scary. Some of the Aries/Scorp interps are very true - we've had huge blow-ups, fighting like cats&dogs (although it could well be those mars/saturn aspects adding to the drama!).

posted September 13, 2012 01:27 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Odette:
But at the same time - the whole thing is weird... because he self-sabotages. He would be VERY hurt if I left him.. but he does things to *make me* leave him.
Is this some kind of masochistic Scorpio gone wrong behaviour?

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yes, that is very typical of scorpios..who love to self-destruct bc they feel unworthy.

I wanted to say though, that if it's not working out for you, just go. True, he's gonna feel hurt, but... if he doesn't treat you the way you want then what're ya gonna do.

posted September 13, 2012 03:20 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Odette:

My thread is indeed about him. His yr of birth is actually '88... so I'm very bummed about having looked at the wrong chart (with '87). He actually has a Taurus Moon/Sco Merc/Libra Venus and Aries Mars. His Mars is (unfortunately!) square his Cappy Saturn and also square my own Cappy Mars.... fun fun... although it explains *a LOT*.

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posted September 13, 2012 03:26 AM            

quote:

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I wanted to say though, that if it's not working out for you, just go. True, he's gonna feel hurt, but... if he doesn't treat you the way you want then what're ya gonna do.

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Hi Hera!

I also like the thought of sticking together through the bad times... but my problem is that his behaviour often triggers - such "bad times".

He is definitely good at overcoming obstacles.. but - he *creates* half of them - unnecessarily - and then overcomes them. But he could've easily avoided the whole thing - by not creating the obstacles in the first place.

I don't like it when people create problems for themselves or others (like ME!).

quote:

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As a side note, I am fascinated by this aspect in bdsm practitioners. Most are masochists, I believe, and they take pride in the amount of pain they can stand without whining or crying or making a sound. This is not a rule, obviously, just a bunch of people I noticed.

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He is into s&m.. although he wouldn't be submissive.
But earlier I meant 'masochist' on a more emotional level... It's almost like he wants me to hurt him and leave.
Maybe it's because deep down he is scared that I'll leave one day anyway.. so he just wants to get it over and done with.
I really don't know sigh

posted September 13, 2012 05:25 AM            

Okay.. I don't want to be all negative and stereotypical, but really.. Saturn in hard aspect in synastry is pure hell. Yes, you may care for each other. Yes, you may want to make it work. Yes, you may be willing to sacrifice some of your needs to save the relationship. But eventually, where does it lead? Pain, conflict, and more pain. I've seen it way too many times. It *does* bind people together, for sure, but does it mean you're *supposed* to be together? That you're "meant to be"? At the expense of your own happiness? Come on. If such problems exist NOW, they will *always* be there. Especially since the guy has it natally. He will always be that way, with you. That's just how the energy manifests. Of course you can hope and pray that he change his behaviour, but in my experience, it leads to nothing but false promises and disappointment.

I don't *ever* want to see squares from personal planets to Saturn in synastry. It's just... ugh. Oppositions - I believe - *can* be worked out. Conjunctions are harder but still doable. Easy aspects can be quite good but can still slip into negative expression. But squares.. oh no. It's like they're meant to make you suffer just for the sake of it.

If I were you, I would leave.
UNLESS he *really* wants to make efforts, real efforts and treat you well.
Otherwise, bye bye.

Better find some good ol' Jupiter instead of the depressing, restrictive Saturn.

Just my opinion...

I do hope everything works out for you whatever the outcome.

posted September 13, 2012 05:35 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Odette:

I also like the thought of sticking together through the bad times... but my problem is that his behaviour often triggers - such "bad times".

He is definitely good at overcoming obstacles.. but - he *creates* half of them - unnecessarily - and then overcomes them. But he could've easily avoided the whole thing - by not creating the obstacles in the first place.

I don't like it when people create problems for themselves or others (like ME!).

He is into s&m.. although he wouldn't be submissive.
But earlier I meant 'masochist' on a more emotional level... It's almost like he wants me to hurt him and leave.
Maybe it's because deep down he is scared that I'll leave one day anyway.. so he just wants to get it over and done with.
I really don't know sigh

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posted September 13, 2012 10:57 AM            

quote:

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If I try to throw in the towel... He comes up with this whole "I know things are bad sometimes... but you're LEAVING? really???? I mean I would never leave you just because things are bad" - and he guilt trips. *insert huge headache*

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So then...what do you want? Or what do you feel? If he has the square, between Saturn and Mars, then he will have difficult lessons in his life concerning his actions and what does, and they probably won't stop for until he straightens around, if he straightens around.

I guess...be cautious of how you might end up, with him or without!

posted September 13, 2012 12:02 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Odette:
It seems to me like - in Saturnian relationships, the Saturn individual can sometimes be very negative and hurtful... and the personal planet individual might put up with this for some time.... but not forever.

Eventually the personal planet individual wants OUT so they leave... or in any case, they do something to 'break free'.
At this point Saturn stands on their pride... They never admit to any negative/jerky behaviour... and all they have to say is:

"Regardless of how I behaved - the bottom line is.. I did NOT leave you. YOU left ME."

And they use this ^ to guilt trip the personal planet individual... as though 'not leaving' is a badge of honour...
It is like they expect the personal planet man/woman - to stay with them through thick and thin no matter what happens and no matter *how* they behave.

Has anyone had similar experiences?

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This is very true. In one of my last relationships his Saturn opposed my Venus, and he was always very verbally harsh toward me - to the point that I eventually went, "Why am I even still here?", and took off on him with no warning whatsoever; I was totally surprised later when I found out that apparently my leaving bothered the sh*t out of him.There was apparently some feeling there toward me on his part, after all, but he was so negative and nasty toward me that at the time I left, that I couldn't even tell and thought he didn't even like me as a human being.

Later on we kinda limped on together again, with him always acting like being with me was akin to getting his wisdom teeth pulled...I think at that point it was some sort of pity-thing on his part, where he wanted to leave but felt like he couldn't or like he was obligated to stay.Ultimately he went off and boinked some woman he'd just met and then promptly moved her into his house and married her a few months later LOL.

posted September 13, 2012 12:16 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Hera:
I sabotage relationships frequently. I make trouble where there need not be, I get into difficult relationships, unavailable/long distance ones.. just to prove to myself over and over again that I am just not worth it/not good enough/unlovable/whatnot. I have caused arguments many, many times. I want intimacy but I also can't handle people coming too close so I make them want to leave me. If they stick around though.. then eventually I come around too.
I am not submissive either. Mars/Saturn is also known for cruelty and possibly sadism so there we go..

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Hera, these guys just weren't right for you. I feel that one day you're gonna meet the guy who doesn't make you scared to get too close to him. There is no fear in true love imo

You know that song Halo by Beyonce?
"Remember those walls I built...baby they're tumblin' down...didn't even put up a a fight, didn't even make a sound. Found a way to let you in..but I never really had a doubt, shinin' in the light of your halo..."
Haha I think that sums it up pretty well
The way it is when it just feels totally right with that person.

posted September 13, 2012 03:12 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Odette:
Interesting ^ because I am now having this problem with someone whose Saturn is conjunct my Mars.
Maybe it is a Mars/Saturn thing.

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Saturn conjunct Mars is less challenging that Saturn square Mars. If these two people decide to merge energies, they can actually achieve a lot. Saturn square Mars, yuck... Let's just say, Saturn is usually wasting its time telling Mars it's all wrong. Mars will not take being bossed around for long.

posted September 13, 2012 03:29 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Odette:
It seems to me like - in Saturnian relationships, the Saturn individual can sometimes be very negative and hurtful... and the personal planet individual might put up with this for some time.... but not forever.

Eventually the personal planet individual wants OUT so they leave... or in any case, they do something to 'break free'.
At this point Saturn stands on their pride... They never admit to any negative/jerky behaviour... and all they have to say is:

"Regardless of how I behaved - the bottom line is.. I did NOT leave you. YOU left ME."

And they use this ^ to guilt trip the personal planet individual... as though 'not leaving' is a badge of honour...
It is like they expect the personal planet man/woman - to stay with them through thick and thin no matter what happens and no matter *how* they behave.

Has anyone had similar experiences?

---

Ooooh, I am going through that with my current boyfriend. His Saturn squares my sun and widely opposes my moon. Ack. He is so emotionally open and honest one minute, the next closed off and "restricting." He tells me he doesn't feel he should be in a relationship because he has "little to offer." I say, well a relationship is only about companionship, minimally. He feels scared of being vulnerable, of failing me somehow and having me leave him. it is so emotionally draining to feel like i am in limbo all the time with him, and tbh he is pushing me away.

I am nothing but dedicated emotionally to him and I am not scared of the future or of failure. We have our own paths in life, it's just that right now we choose to walk together. He doesn't seem to get that.

Yesterday he told me verbatim after he told me all that nonsense about feeling inadequate, wanting to be alone because of it, that "Regardless, I know how I feel about you so I will keep moving forward. I won't let my doubts get in the way." Well, honey, they already have! They bled out without you realizing it and now your doubts have become my own.

posted September 13, 2012 03:55 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Belage:
And don't forget, for Saturn, relationships are WORK. So they view conflict as issues to be worked on, even if they are painful and maddening, Saturn will not easily throw in the tower, whereas the other person is like wtf, this is too much, I am outta here!

Sometimes, when dealing with someone whose saturn makes a square or opposition to a planet of yours, the lesson can be grow enough self esteem to withdraw yourself from the relationship. To be able to say to Saturn, you know what, I am FINE the way I am, go work on someone else!

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posted September 13, 2012 03:56 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by RunAroundScreaming:
Hera, these guys just weren't right for you. I feel that one day you're gonna meet the guy who doesn't make you scared to get too close to him. There is no fear in true love imo

You know that song Halo by Beyonce?
"Remember those walls I built...baby they're tumblin' down...didn't even put up a a fight, didn't even make a sound. Found a way to let you in..but I never really had a doubt, shinin' in the light of your halo..."
Haha I think that sums it up pretty well
The way it is when it just feels totally right with that person.

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RAS, I cannot rely my personal growth on some champion that may or may not come my way. It is my battle, these are my inner demons. It is my job to defeat them. I will do it for me, to free my own spirit and allow free emotional/mental/spiritual/sexual expression in a relationship of my own choosing. Not because I want prince friggin charming to accept me and am desperate for us to work. My type of prince charming will accept my darkness as well. And yes, will understand I am a work in progress and will make mistakes along the way. And he will stick with me despite the fact that I may act cruel or repulsive or indifferent towards him, though he will find a way to tell me it is not acceptable and I need to sort out my sh!t. That is the dude I want.
The fact that I keep choosing the wrong men is still self sabotage at its lowest. But it does make me grow. Slowly, but at least I am not stagnating.