posted April 26, 2013 04:57 PM            

As in even if that country's economy would worsen so log as they don't have to worry about family and the country doesn't become racist and discriminate against such foreign Capricorns, male Capricorns will be loyal citizens to the country to the point that when the draft for a pointless war comes, they will serve their time.

Without putting too much examples, more leaders that shaped the destinies of countries tend to be Capricorn than any other signs after Pisces (and the Pisces who become leaders of nations tend to have Capricorn Moon or Ascendant and are often Capricorn Dominants) an Astrologer once told me.

In addition I can name a few Lunar Capricorns who were soldiers and diehard patriots of the most kind. The quickest that come to mind are George Washington, Hitler, and Napoleon Bonaparte (there's even recent evidence that he may have been born in January and actually a Capricorn instead of a Leo!).

I have a Double Capricorn friend who told me in email that men all have the duty to serve (esp. in times of war) should a draft be passed and they get selected. He was a soldier in the Army.

My father is an immigrant to the United States and he's in the National Guard. Even if the United States weakens economically and he has left the Guard long since, he would not leave the United States and would stay in the country because he is a PROUD AMERICAN. The only exceptions are his family (which goes first) and if United States starts putting racist institutions such akin to those of Nazi Germany. He LOVES America and is willing to die to protect the country should an REAL enemy invasion occurs. He's a Sagittarius with a Moon in Capricorn.

However I notice Capricorn women are the opposite. Not only do they tend to eagerly immigrate to richer countries for a better life-should that country starts to decay economically they are the first one to either denounce their citizenship in their new country and go back home or to another country that has is in a rich economic state.

My mom is very much like this. If United States starts decaying she always tells me she's coming back home. In fact when she retires and accumulate wealth she has dreams of buying a nice house in the home country to live in.

My Best Internet Friend who is a Double Capricorn, Saturn Capricorn, and Capricorn Dominant is much like my mom. If life gets hard in the country she's living in,she's definitely moving to another country with better living conditions.

I can name a few more other examples of people I'm not necessarily familiar with.

Why is there such a huge contrast between the male and females in regards to the concept of "Country and Nationalism"?

Most Capricorn women I know are cynical about Patriotism and sincerely believe dying for the country is a WASTE of LIFE and POINTLESS. But Capricorn men and Male Capricorn Moons, even the MOST CYNICAL, are the VERY LAST ONE to abandon the country in its time of need!

Why is this? Is it because Capricorn is the Epitome of Fatherly, Patriarchy, and Conservatism hence within men tends to come the Sense of Duty and Responsibility for the country?

ADDED

To use an example, Stanely Kowalski from A Streetcar Named Desire was revealed to be a Capricorn (and also Libra Ascendant with his revealed birth time if you calculate it). One of the most memorable lines from the Movie is when he finally loses it after Blanche's repeated racial slurs and treatment of Stanely as a inferior simply because he is Polish.

"I am not a Polack! People from Poland are Poles. They are not Pollacks. But what I am is one hundred percent American! I'm born and raised in the greatest country on this earth and I'm proud of it. And don't you ever call me a Polack."

To add Stanely was a Soldier in World War 2 who earned several medals in the war.

posted April 26, 2013 05:06 PM            

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Originally posted by I'm so cappy:
Hehe. I'm a Capricorn woman and yes, I'm not patriotic and I wouldn't want my man to fight in a war.

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Ditto.

posted April 26, 2013 05:08 PM            

But it's not that I wouldn't care if there was a war in Poland...That would break my heart actually.

posted April 26, 2013 06:59 PM            

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Originally posted by MorteImperator:
Most Capricorn women I know are cynical about Patriotism and sincerely believe dying for the country is a WASTE of LIFE and POINTLESS.

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Yep. I think patriotism can be a dangerous mind set to have. I'm more attached to my actual home (as in, house) and family than a false ideal. I and a female Cap friend have considered moving out of the country.

posted April 26, 2013 11:19 PM            

Just in general patriotism, national identity, etc. and gender already relate. I'm personally not very patriotic, but I know I can sometimes be too preachy so just want to say as a disclaimer I'm not trying to preach or imply that being patriotic is wrong.. I'd rather leave my opinions out of it and just give quotes lol

"A paradox lies at the heart of most national narratives. Nations are frequently figured through the iconography of familial and domestic space. The term "nation" derives from the term "natio": to be born. We speak of nations as "motherlands' and "fatherlands". Foreigners "adopt" countries that are not their native homes, and are "naturalized" into the national family. We talk of the Family of Nations, of "homelands" and "native lands" http://www.english.wisc.edu/amcclintock/writing/Family_article.pdf

"Usually, a nationalism is gendered in that it draws on socially constructed ideas of masculinity and femininity to shape female
and male participation in nation building, as well as the manner in which the nation is embodied in the imagination of self-professed nationalists. Motherland or nation
as woman to be protected by brave citizen warriors is a common metaphor of nationalisms. In many contexts, women symbolize national honor, thus any act (e.g., rape) that defiles and violates
women’s bodies becomes a political weapon aimed at destroying the enemy nation’s honor. the gendered manner in which the image of the warrior is constructed within nationalist narratives as well as the notion that women embody national honor, influences to a certain extent, how
women will participate in nationalist politics. " http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/sj6/BanerjeeGenderandnationalism.pdf

So going off of that maybe since Cap represents the father figure, Cap men feel an especially strong responsibiliby to protect and defend the culture, but Cap women have a duality if our identity is considered essentially "masculine" so if we already have the same drive to provide, protect, etc. maybe they kind of cancel each other out? Like protecting ourselves/the family takes on a more literal meaning and Cap women wouldn't have as much of a problem leaving or searching for security elsewhere

posted April 26, 2013 11:45 PM            

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Originally posted by I'm so cappy:
Imperator@ maybe Cap women are simply more realistic and reasonable

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Do you have a Moon in Cancer?

Realistic and reasonable is not the thing. Capricorn men are often even more stable than Cappy women and are better at handling practical matters than most Cappy women. More often than not from personal experience Cappy women are EMOTIONALLY DEPRESSING.

While the men are pessimistic they are so STERN and Practical about the matter that I rarely feel this emotional depression from them.

quote:

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Originally posted by moonlightx:
Yep. I think patriotism can be a dangerous mind set to have. I'm more attached to my actual home (as in, house) and family than a false ideal. I and a female Cap friend have considered moving out of the country.

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Patriotism is a NECESSARY EVIL. Without Patriots nation states splinter into smaller factions which in turn leads to even more fighting and violence. Radical Patriotism is bad but for the sake of survival WE NEED PATRIOTISM like it or not.

quote:

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Originally posted by FireMoon:
So going off of that maybe since Cap represents the father figure, Cap men feel an especially strong responsibiliby to protect and defend the culture, but Cap women have a duality if our identity is considered essentially "masculine" so if we already have the same drive to provide, protect, etc. maybe they kind of cancel each other out? Like protecting ourselves/the family takes on a more literal meaning and Cap women wouldn't have as much of a problem leaving or searching for security elsewhere

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This is also what makes me scratch my head of why Capricorn is considered a Feminine Sign. The Signs basic traits as a whole embodies Patriarchy and Conservatism so much that its better if Capricorn was grouped in with the Masculine Signs. But its more than just protect the culture, I notice Capricorn men extend Patriotism to "Honor-Bound" philosophies.

posted April 27, 2013 12:14 AM            

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Do you have a Moon in Cancer?

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No, why?

posted April 27, 2013 02:38 AM            

I may be living abroad, but it has nothing, nothing, to do with me devaluing my national identity, my cultural pride, and I will never for any reason abandon my natural United States American citizenship.

Two things I was very clear about when moving abroad with my Portuguese Canadian husband and his family.... (proud Portuguese immigrants and Canadian citizens themselves.) I will NOT take his last name, and I will NOT renounce my US citizenship. I'm a resident here, I may take up a landed and "naturalized" citizenship one day, but thankfully for everyone... while not the "politically correct" term (legally recognized), it is technically understood by both USA and Canada to be a dual citizenship, and the majority of my in-laws and friends here in Canada (several back home) have multiple citizenship, including my son. Every country has its own laws regarding immigration and citizenship, some are restrictive, some will only recognize their own citizenship (calling for you to pick only one in order to reside there for any real length of time, something I would never do, in my heart there will always be just one flag, ours *USA*) some may be accepting (to varying degrees) of those who have multiple homelands (citizenship). These matters are complicated... but, in traveling, it becomes burdensome to rely on one set of documentation for every cause, when two (and I reckon more for some), can and do make life much easier. It is sad that there are so many hurdles to cross in order to safely transit over borders, but since it is a matter of national security *to any nation involved*, I also have to respect this sometimes cumbersome duty, as do many other avid travelers. It is more of a crime that one has to "buy" into their citizenship because of these modern times, the loss of integrity, stolen integrity, has caused distrust and safety issues here and elsewhere... making things even more complicated... (((sigh))) *expats and international travelers will get what I mean*

I do not feel it has all that much to do with the influence of Capricorn. Filial piety, heritage, ones early home/homeland, their upbringing, their eventual retirement/elder years are governed by the 4th house and Moon and Cancer influence, patriotism itself is under Cancer's sphere. Ease or interest in travel and freedoms would come down to Jupiter, Sagittarius, 9th house influence. (and depending on personal reason, objectives or ideals... the 2nd *values*, 5th *pleasures*, and 11th houses *humanities/movements*, (nationalism - has been linked to Neptune at least by transit, oddly enough) rulers, aspects may all play a more important role for that individual person. What I'm saying... is simple. Capricorn influence and gender alone does not and cannot determine one to be either firmly patriotic in nature or ideal, or the extreme reverse, but the other factors that determine this.

There is more to a chart than SUN/MOON/ASC - and again, for the nth time - the gender roles are not meant to be used in the way you keep insisting they work or should work in your eyes. It is about the energy within the symbolism that that sign represents not the person and they are meant to be used to understand harmonizing of the chart, to illustrate the natural balance of the astrological wheel. yin/yang

charts include houses, and rulers, natural rulers and natal rulers, and some people have placements of planets residing in those houses while others do not, some have this aspect to that, and some have no aspects to anything, and some... well - I've made my point... ^^; there's more than sun/moon/asc~

And some women can be (are) just as patriotic as some men, so too some men can be (are) just as unpatriotic as some women.

(obviously I don't mean blind patriotism *you owe loyalty to the country, always; but not always the governing body* Twain, I believe said this, and I would also point out, you can argue that someone who abandons their country when that country slips into the hands of an evil power/the freedom and justice of the people is being challenged by the wicked, and that person still believes they are patriotic while they dismiss their loyalty under these dire circumstances? That can be argued as false patriotism, only loyal until things aren't going well, only loyal until you have been personally affected by those who would rob you and her (that country) of those values, rights, privileges... that's not patriotism, at all... it can be argued that it is cowardice, almost treasonous. As an United States American of mixed mostly Eastern European heritage, and while I have my own personal political and national priorities, ideals, I shudder to think that a country whose founders took up arms to liberate everyone from an oppressing, discriminating (at that time) "landlord" and unite us, not once but twice for the entire betterment of their countrymen/women... would have so called "patriots" today who are only willing to defend the nation they'd fought to create so long as it wasn't being turned into an oppressive, unjust, discriminating land by some tyrant or another... basically, they're only defending her by being loud and proud, without ever wanting to back their pride with action.)

I may have became sick during my time in the military, but with a relatively rare and under diagnosed, not even well known and still not the least bit understood disease, my urge to be a patriot, and be supportive of the people I respect was so strong, I went to one of my CO's and asked them how else I could be of service to our nation, his answer led me to the best career I've ever had, and I was able to still help my countrymen and women. I'd never have known I was so well suited to that work, and I would have tried any other outlet that gave me the opportunity to do something for/give back to the country I hold my loyalty toward, but the shoe fit so well, I still have a hard time accepting any other occupation, and always long to return to that one. I would return to USA in a heartbeat, it is still a regular argument issue in my marriage. lol Not that I have no loyalty for my Canadian family, or our neighbors to the North. I'm not a loud and proud American, I'm a proud American. Most people from here (Canada) and other nations that I meet automatically assume I am naturally Canadian, when I mention I'm "immigrating", they turn to France, Poland, Germany, Greece, and Russia (the odd ones that are thrown in are usually Italy, Sweden, Spain, Australia Oo; idky), very few guess I am from USA, they go on to ignorantly or knowingly making rude remarks against USA, our flawed economy, our strange and ever-failing sometimes amazingly embarrassing figureheads, and our brethren, conflicts abroad, everything... I have friends who have ventured far and wide, (not Capricorn at all mind you), one of which said she (especially) had to deny her American citizenship while in England, and elsewhere because of the "not so great" response it provoked from -some of- those people when America(ns) were brought up. She said she'd say she was Canadian... which received a much warmer response, and asked me if I've had to do this as well yet. I have not and will not, and while receptive and grateful for hospitality in other lands, I do not agree with anyone badgering or belittling me or my son about our roots in USA. While I take a pacifist approach to confrontation, preferring to use words and reason, and I would never condone violence for mere words... if words became or become actions from others to my homeland, I would (will) be there to defend her in the same manner. That is to be expected of any true patriot.
Not abandoning on the slightest challenge against her, not abandoning her in her worst hour. Not temporarily denying or denouncing your own nation to avoid some petty often hypocritical bias from others.

Again, look it up. Patriotism and the lack thereof is found within the 4th house (naturally ruled by the sign of Cancer and Moon), Cancer placement in a chart, the ruler of the sign, the aspects to them/within their house. Capricorns role is not one of opposition to this, it is one that establishes countries (also given rule to Aries), The balance of Capricorn/Cancer axis on this issue is that Cancer holds the country near and dear, Capricorn builds and gives structure to the country. Issues dealing with countries, their establishment, their justice system, industries, their representation abroad, and defenses, and their citizens all fall to the cardinal sign axes. Libra - democracy/justice/law - Capricorn (and Aries) establishment, structure, the "image" of them at home and to others abroad, and Cancer representing the people. Axes compliment each other, not always oppose as in synastry. Mutable signs and Fixed signs have their place there too, each axis is representative of a certain aspect of a nation. Cancer though, is what you are really looking at/for, IC ruler not MC ruler. Looking at things from a shallow perspective as ever, you are only going to ever see stereotypes. There are more to charts than Sun/Moon/Asc (dominance and gender roles). >.<;;;

“I am an American; free born and free bred, where I acknowledge no man as my superior, except for his own worth, or as my inferior, except for his own demerit.”

“Here is your country. Cherish these natural wonders, cherish the natural resources, cherish the history and romance as a sacred heritage, for your children and your children's children. Do not let selfish men or greedy interests skin your country of its beauty, its riches or its romance.”
― Theodore Roosevelt

“These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in the crisis, shrink from the service of his country; but he that stands it NOW, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman.”
― Thomas Paine, The American Crisis

(^ this)

oh, and congratulations on having become acquainted with a female, a seagoat female, who is patriotic, there ya go~ now you can say in your experience "some" Capricorn women are patriotic. (you can even make it spiffy, by recognizing that it is the influence of Cancer, 4th house, and Moon that makes her this way, since that's what it is.)

It is important to distinguish the term patriot from nationalist - and to understand patriots are loyal to their country, but not always her governing body. Patriots are not ignorant of flaws within the structures of their nation, but are there to criticize them and see them addressed properly. Nationalists are people who seek superiority or see themselves as being superior to others (this can be the actual negative of the cardinal axis, with Libra and Cancer representing the cleanest most civil parts of country loyalty, and Aries/Capricorn taking on the darker less civil and more aggressive parts of country loyalty... if you want to look at it that way.) A nationalist may be blind to the flaws of their homeland/government, (or at least play ignorant to them), they may be intolerant of "rival" nations. There is a world of difference between patriotism and nationalism, yet one is often mistaken as the other. There are negative facets of patriotism, and maybe (though I'm not sure here) some positive facets to nationalism somewhere... but overall, patriots describe a people who loyally uphold the values of their homeland nonviolently as possible, while continuing to remark, change, and build toward a better state of life for her people, for her future.
Nationalism... on the other hand, is often steadfast loyalty to some tradition/value/creed of a people who are only united against those not of her nation, and seldom remark against themselves, change themselves, or build anything for any reason other than to promote themselves over others (get the upperhand).

It's late so maybe not defining things well~ but this should suffice there is plenty of material online to learn the differences after all, if one wishes to do so.

posted April 30, 2013 12:33 AM            

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Originally posted by I'm so cappy:
No, why?

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Because my Best Internet Friend was of the same nationality as you before she left and she has a Moon in Cancer as does my mom (read OP).

I am wondering if there is a correlation with Capricorn and Cancer Moon and Patriotism in women.

quote:

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Originally posted by SaturnineMoth:
oh, and congratulations on having become acquainted with a female, a seagoat female, who is patriotic, there ya go~ now you can say in your experience "some" Capricorn women are patriotic. (you can even make it spiffy, by recognizing that it is the influence of Cancer, 4th house, and Moon that makes her this way, since that's what it is.)

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posted April 30, 2013 12:30 PM            

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Originally posted by I'm so cappy:
I see. Well, life isn't easy here for most of the people so even a Cancer moon may choose to sc**w it and leave

I have a Libra moon btw.

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Are you a Double Cappy?My Best Internet Friend is from Poland is a Double Cap and has a Moon in Cancer and I feel a sort of similar vibe with you based on online posts that why I though to ask about Moon in Cancer.

posted April 30, 2013 12:38 PM            

Oh, I also have a Cap NN and ascendant in a Cap duad and decan. So I'm pretty Capricornian

posted April 30, 2013 12:54 PM            

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Originally posted by I'm so cappy:
I'm a quadruple Cappy But that's because I have a generational stellium - Saturn, Uranus and Neptune. Plus my sun.

Oh, I also have a Cap NN and ascendant in a Cap duad and decan. So I'm pretty Capricornian

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I knew it I felt the same vibe as my Best Internet (Polish) Friend!

Except my Mom doesn't bring out the same vibe (but thats because she's Aquari Ascendant and Scorpio Dominant) even though she's a Cappy.

posted April 30, 2013 01:19 PM            

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Originally posted by I'm so cappy:
What kind of vibe? I'm not sure if I know what you mean

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posted May 02, 2013 01:34 PM            

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