posted February 01, 2014 03:06 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by AlexDern:
I never said I was calling her that. And we can co-create with Lilith. Someone else said we have to own her. I figured by own they meant acknowledge it in us. Just out of curiosity what does my sun sign have to do with this?

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Lilith doesn't want to be owned and she's not trying to own you either...

posted February 01, 2014 04:51 PM            

And for a man lilith is taking control of your sexuality. Not relying on a woman to please yourself. Many people have an issue with this and see lilith as a demon because they are addicted to the testosterone that is realased while abstaining, but they need to get in touch with their feminine side and downswing after release...

Each orgasm is a little death, so to speak, of the ego...and a renewal.

You'll see that most men today are obsessed with Chasity and old superstitions regarding release...and believe that the secret to success is living like a sexually repressed patriarchal monk.

Ironically, the very thing criticized by the feminist movement is actually equally affecting both sexes.

The issue is sexual repression. When a male relies on a woman for pleasure he treats her like an object but also treats himself as an object. When he redeems the sexual act and makes it a sacred act of self-love he gains freedom from sexual thoughts so that he can do other things and be independent. This in mythology is alluded too when lilith is an angel instead of a demon...

The irony is that in patriarchal systems...lilith can be either one...a patriarchy doesn't necessarily imply lilith as demon...

That has more to do with the guilt complex that is promoted by psychiatry and psychology regarding orgasm for both sexes.

And this is really ironic because people who are possessed by the negative lilith tend to rely on others for sex...they tend to need to put themselves on exhibition, where as when we view lilith as an angel we tend to be more liberal about self love but become independent.

It's the paradox of Marylin Monroe...she became dependent on drugs and relyingon men for gratification, ultimately leading to her devise.

posted February 01, 2014 06:05 PM            

And I think to an extent yes in a patriarchy there is the idea that sex is for the purpose of pro-creation which is sacred and should be taken very seriously.. And "guys will be guys" but women have the biological duty of having children so there is a sort of Madonna/w**** complex when it comes to "sacred" institutions like marriage. A man is supposed to find the "good wife" (Eve) while secretly desiring but also rejecting a more sexually liberated woman (Lilith)

So to me a man "owning" his Lilith would just be the ability to see how the two archetypes can merge.. and therefore he would not be sexually repressed or feel threatened/ feel the need to condemn others either..

posted February 01, 2014 06:33 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by AlexDern:
AriesLilith...

Why would anyone try to own a woman with a diamond ring. That doesn't make any sense...most men give their fiance a diamond ring as a symbol of love, not ownership, albeit I Can admit some very powerful people do...but for the most part, the diamond ring is accepted by the woman, not forced upon her.

Again, lilith is as much in men as women...the women try to own their men too, and mark them as territories...there are not only emaciated female models but male models too..
And we're actually seeing males start to rebel against the matriarchy...

We are seeing men who are exploring their sexuality to the limits and no longer relying on monogamy for pleasure.

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With the diamond ring, I was joking with what you said in your main post of this thread, that "Lilith is materialistic and only wants the money".

Anyways... as for the thread itself, Lilith is not there to use Adam or anyone else and then cheat on them... Thought I can see how the negative manifestation of Lilith can become too domineering over men through power, and the following paragraph you wrote is an interesting point:

"And this is really ironic because people who are possessed by the negative lilith tend to rely on others for sex...they tend to need to put themselves on exhibition, where as when we view lilith as an angel we tend to be more liberal about self love but become independent."

But Lilih didn't use Adam nor cheated on him, nor did Adam ditch her. She wanted to be on the top when doing it with Adam and didn't accept to be in submission, so she ended up flying away from him and ended up with demons. Then since Adam was alone, God created Eve from him, who is then submissive.

posted February 01, 2014 06:47 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by FireMoon:
^^I see, I thought you were saying what I wrote about lilith was abstract but yeah I agree gender roles are social constructs, not always a concrete or innate thing

And I think to an extent yes in a patriarchy there is the idea that sex is for the purpose of pro-creation which is sacred and should be taken very seriously.. And "guys will be guys" but women have the biological duty of having children so there is a sort of Madonna/w**** complex when it comes to "sacred" institutions like marriage. A man is supposed to find the "good wife" (Eve) while secretly desiring but also rejecting a more sexually liberated woman (Lilith)

So to me a man "owning" his Lilith would just be the ability to see how the two archetypes can merge.. and therefore he would not be sexually repressed or feel threatened/ feel the need to condemn others either..

For straight men to reject women sexually altogether (or vice-versa) seems sort of counter-productive, although I get where you're going with that...

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Thanks...this is great...I appreciate the contribution here. My mind has expanded. I'm alluding to the notion of the archetypes merging.

And I wasn't necessarily implying that a man completely go away from women and reject them for self love. I do believe that sort of thing should be shared, but when a man cannot find it because of outer circumstances, I think becoming repressed is far worse than self-gratification.

And it's not because of sensualism. I notice that men who abstain from sex in an effort to become successful end up getting stuck and obsessed with sex itself...it consumes them, and their ego's inflate...an example of this is in quigong where men think that if they hold in their semen they will become godly, which is absolutely nonsense and completely wishful thinking, ableit moderation does have its benefits.

posted February 01, 2014 06:50 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by AriesLilith:
With the diamond ring, I was joking with what you said in your main post of this thread, that "Lilith is materialistic and only wants the money".

Anyways... as for the thread itself, Lilith is not there to use Adam or anyone else and then cheat on them... Thought I can see how the negative manifestation of Lilith can become too domineering over men through power, and the following paragraph you wrote is an interesting point:

"And this is really ironic because people who are possessed by the negative lilith tend to rely on others for sex...they tend to need to put themselves on exhibition, where as when we view lilith as an angel we tend to be more liberal about self love but become independent."

But Lilih didn't use Adam nor cheated on him, nor did Adam ditch her. She wanted to be on the top when doing it with Adam and didn't accept to be in submission, so she ended up flying away from him and ended up with demons. Then since Adam was alone, God created Eve from him, who is then submissive.

She doesn't intend to use anyone, but wants to be acknowledged and does not accept submission.

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With Marilyn Monroe I'm linking the anima projection of lilith. All these men projected on to her and she thought she was independent but in reality she wasn't.

Where as hillary clinton is large and in charge...she is a positive anima projection because she is independent strong and healthy...

Monroe on the other hand was fighting demons all her life...

Lilith on top could be a metaphor for career...again gender role issues...but yeah thanks for your contribution. I agree with what you're saying on a level....

posted February 01, 2014 07:16 PM            

I have a cap sun, and I have a venus in aquarius conjunct a mars in pisces.

posted February 01, 2014 10:50 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by AlexDern:
And I wasn't necessarily implying that a man completely go away from women and reject them for self love. I do believe that sort of thing should be shared, but when a man cannot find it because of outer circumstances, I think becoming repressed is far worse than self-gratification.

And it's not because of sensualism. I notice that men who abstain from sex in an effort to become successful end up getting stuck and obsessed with sex itself...it consumes them, and their ego's inflate...an example of this is in quigong where men think that if they hold in their semen they will become godly, which is absolutely nonsense and completely wishful thinking, ableit moderation does have its benefits.

But even in relationships, sometimes the woman won't want to have sex, and the man will, so what is he to do? He should definitely please himself and become liberated. It goes both ways. The woman should do the same if she wants as well. They should both be free. If they are in a marriage and agree not too, i think that is foolish. Can you agree not to sneeze? Sex is sex..it's a need, not an act of recreation.

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I totally agree. The Catholic Church discouraged birth control partially to increase population at that time, but if anything overpopulation is a problem at this point and many people choose to use contraceptives or not have children at all.. Sex is still a need but humans have the ability to control if/when we personally reproduce and it's not just a primitive mating ritual anymore lol. And people also don't need to be so uptight or restrictive about it imo

And yeah I agree both genders should learn self love and know how to not depend on it from others when circumstances won't allow, but also being repressed can get unhealthy/unbalanced. I have Aqua venus in 8th so taboos don't bother me I more just find them interesting, and I was watching a documentary about how a lot of the men who secretly visit escorts to "dominate" them with bondage/humiliation, etc. are often ultra-successful businessmen who are always in control and have huge egos on the job, etc. Which of course isn't always the case but just saying there's definitely a balance (also sorry if this is getting to risqué or offensive to anyone I can edit if necessary lol)

quote:

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Originally posted by AlexDern:
I have a really strange mix that makes me very misunderstood and reminds me of that song "stuck in the middle of you"

I have a cap sun, and I have a venus in aquarius conjunct a mars in pisces.

And my planets are spread over 6 signs if you include chiron and my ascendant.

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posted February 02, 2014 07:06 PM            

I'm a gemini ascendant, pisces moon, pisces mars, venus in aquarius, sun in cap, jup in cap, and saturn in scorpio...and merc and sag..

My mc is in aquarius conjunct venus, and I'm mostly 6,7,8, and 10th house...with a NN in taurus in the 12th...and a chiron conjunct my ascendant.

posted February 02, 2014 09:09 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by AlexDern:
Hi Firemoon, cool to get to know your chart better.

I'm a gemini ascendant, pisces moon, pisces mars, venus in aquarius, sun in cap, jup in cap, and saturn in scorpio...and merc and sag..

My mc is in aquarius conjunct venus, and I'm mostly 6,7,8, and 10th house...with a NN in taurus in the 12th...and a chiron conjunct my ascendant.

What about you?

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Cool, that is an interesting mix, Pisces and Cap usually go well together tho and venus conjunct MC must be nice?

I'm a Cap sun, saturn, NN in 7th, Sag moon in 5th, Sag mercury and juno in 6th, Leo jupiter opposite Aqua venus, Taurus mars (not square by aspect, but still conflicting lol). Cancer Asc widely conjunct Chiron, Pisces MC, makes a grand trine with Pluto. Sun conjunct saturn and neptune...

posted February 02, 2014 09:55 PM            

We have a lot of similarities yet very big differences.

posted February 02, 2014 11:22 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by AlexDern:

And we're actually seeing males start to rebel against the matriarchy...

We are seeing men who are exploring their sexuality to the limits and no longer relying on monogamy for pleasure.

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quote:

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You'll see that most men today are obsessed with Chasity and old superstitions regarding release...and believe that the secret to success is living like a sexually repressed patriarchal monk.

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WTF? It's actually been exactly the opposite with men being brought up to be promiscuous ("sow their wild oats") while women were supposed to be chaste...And it's more socially acceptable for males to me promiscuous because it's "not natural" for them to be any other way. Women are supposed to get attached to every guy they sleep with, save it for and only want to be with one guy, and accept that he's a guy and he will cheat on her because monogamy is not natural for any human being (except women).

posted February 03, 2014 03:05 PM            

For example, Freddy wanted to go out, my neighbor, with his friends, but his wife said no, so he stayed in.

And my employers have all been female...

and the women at my church are kind of wild.

It think maybe you guys are thinking of the 1980's. It's already 2014 and we're about to have a woman president...so my experience is more matriarchal.

posted February 03, 2014 03:06 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by filleaspirant:
@AlexDern, where do you live exactly? I don't need the city and address, but I'd like to at least know the country you grew up in. I'm curious. Because, honestly, unless you were born in one of the tribes in Asia and Africa that truly adopt matriarchy, you're living in a very patriarchical world where people are slowly coming to accept sexual liberation and experimentation. For those that experiment, women still get a bad rep for either taking the initiative or having and attending to a sexual desire/need.

To be more on topic, Lilith to me is the expression of feminine power. For women, it means being in synch with their more sensual and sexual side, and not being subordinate to a man's whim. For men, it'd speak of how he can get in touch with what he fears in a woman and embracing those qualities by accepting that this woman won't respond to any of his mind games and famous "moves".

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posted February 03, 2014 03:08 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by MorpHnStorM:
WTF? It's actually been exactly the opposite with men being brought up to be promiscuous ("sow their wild oats") while women were supposed to be chaste...And it's more socially acceptable for males to me promiscuous because it's "not natural" for them to be any other way. Women are supposed to get attached to every guy they sleep with, save it for and only want to be with one guy, and accept that he's a guy and he will cheat on her because monogamy is not natural for any human being (except women).

I'd fix your first statement to say that both sexes are more openly exploring their sexuality outside of the confines of the conventional/traditional idea of relationship, more than ever.

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I see a lot of matriarchal societies...I understand the banking system and the judicial system are patriarchal...but the Church really doesn't have any power..it's all economics, and I still see pockets of matriarchy scattered in every country...

I know it fluctuates...like when Cleopatra was leader..it was a matriarchy...and the native american mound builders, etc...

posted February 03, 2014 03:39 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by AlexDern:
AriesLilith...

Why would anyone try to own a woman with a diamond ring. That doesn't make any sense...most men give their fiance a diamond ring as a symbol of love, not ownership, albeit I Can admit some very powerful people do...but for the most part, the diamond ring is accepted by the woman, not forced upon her.

Again, lilith is as much in men as women...the women try to own their men too, and mark them as territories...there are not only emaciated female models but male models too..
And we're actually seeing males start to rebel against the matriarchy...

We are seeing men who are exploring their sexuality to the limits and no longer relying on monogamy for pleasure.

---

posted February 03, 2014 03:47 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by AlexDern:
Well...I love in America, but where I live women are more in charge.

For example, Freddy wanted to go out, my neighbor, with his friends, but his wife said no, so he stayed in.

And my employers have all been female...

and the women at my church are kind of wild.

It think maybe you guys are thinking of the 1980's. It's already 2014 and we're about to have a woman president...so my experience is more matriarchal.

That's my experience. Insult me if you will.

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I don't mean to be insulting, but you don't sound like you have world experience or even know much about the history outside the USA. Correct me if I'm wrong please, but that's how it seems to me.

First and foremost, you're basing the conclusion that we live in a matriarchy (as in worldly matriarchy) on your life experiences. Are you old enough to make such a conclusion? I'm pretty young myself, I was born in the late 80's, and there is no way I'll make such a statement on society dynamics simply from my life, 1) because it's been a short life so far and 2) because I don't think I know better than sociologists or anthropologists.

On that note - the Church is matriarchal? Are you for real? You do know that for CENTURIES the Church said Mary Magdalene was a prostitute instead of a disciple of Jesus because the image of a good woman was not that of a woman who was active in the pursuit of her beliefs, right? The image of a good woman, from the before the first Millenium up until mid-XX century was that of a woman who stayed at home and sacrificed all of herself for the greater good of her family. Another example of how the Church isn't matriarchal is the fact that you don't have/see Pristess. It has been discovered that early Christianity had lots of different schools of cathecism. There was a school who followed Mary Magdalene's teachings instead of Saint Peter's. What did the Church do once it reached supreme control over society in the Roman Empire? The Pope and his council determined that all holy texts not according to the books that currently constitute the New Testament should be destroyed and the followers of those "heretic" words be persecuted and executed. Afterwards the Council of Trent, the role of women, in the Bible, was very much minimized to two stereotypes: the mother/wife and the harlot/troublemaker.

Matriarchy isn't about women being in a position of power. Crudely, patriarchy was instituted because men wanted to be sure the child growing in the belly of woman was theirs and the only way they knew how then was by shaming women into keeping their virginity and their marriage vows and not sleeping with anyone other than her man, later called husband. The figure of marriage usually doesn't exist in a matriarchal society because there is simply no issue of being legally bound to someone. In a matriarchy, every woman and every man is free to be with whoever they decide, but men will see any child birthed from a woman in this society as their responsability, not because this child might be theirs but because the child represents the future of the society. It's a whole different mindset, which is why you only see such type of society deep in the wild of Asia and Africa, in the very outskirts of what we know as civilized society. The way occidental society organizes itself couldn't possibly adopt matriarchy so seamlessly as you want to believe it does simply because you've only had female bosses and the women around you seem to be calling all the shots, and the USA might have a female president. Throughout the whole world, women still get paid less than men to do the same work, the ambitious ones get incentivated into not having kids (it might ruin the prospect of a promotion or they even might lose their job) and they feel the frowns when they date around, especially when there's been pressure all her life for her to settle down and start a family.