posted June 30, 2014 03:41 AM            

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Originally posted by Lonake:
But seriously no one else saw this in their classrooms growing up? That's so odd to me because it was such a big part of my school environment, the girls and their achievements were continually emphasized, if a boy did something of note it was generally unacknowledged or downplayed. And they were also publicly derided by staff, but not so for girls.

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No. But maybe that was because the public schools I went to were all in Texas. They didn't give anyone a break, boys and girls were both derided and no one (outside of athletics) was praised. When I scored very high on some tests I was made to take that measured my academic abilities no one patted me on the back for it. I did get assigned to tutor others in math once, but there were 2 others, both boys.

And it wasn't unknown for a few teachers to panic when I raised my hand, either because they feared I would ask a question outside their answer book (and thus didn't know) or something that could get them in a lot of trouble for answering honestly. I got into a lot of trouble for correcting a male coach teaching history by using 3 library books (1 from the school library was never returned though the school librarian told me not to worry about it). 'Course the only reason he taught that class was because Texas law said coaches had to and Texas schools almost always worship their coaches along with their student jocks and cheerleaders (even when they're on a losing streak, something I've always found odd and still haven't figured out).

Okay, I think girls were less likely to be paddled (which is still legal in Texas to this day, not that every school does it) than boys for the same thing (OTOH boys usually had a smarter mouth so maybe that was why...my cousin bragged about how he got paddled once he told the teacher to make sure he felt it this time and when the first one hit the teacher asked him if he felt that and he went, "Felt what?" ) PE made less physical demands but that wasn't as a favor to us, and they certainly didn't brag about how good we were in PE.

posted June 30, 2014 05:37 AM            

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Originally posted by Lonake:
Pixie, not sure why you're hung up on my experiences with the media but I don't really feel the need to explain them. My personal views are in this thread. If you don't agree that's because we see things differently.

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You don't have to explain them. Just give me examples. You or anyone else claiming men are being terribly put down in the media and women worshiped. If this is true then I'd like to look into it because it would beg the question of why. (OTOH if you don't actually know of any popular shows and movies like that then the question is why do you and a few others believe it's so? That makes no sense.)

I gave examples of how I didn't see it was as it was claimed. Here they are again:

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Can someone give examples of popular shows that help shape society that are "emasculating"?

Offhand the characters I can think of are James Bond, Indiana Jones, characters portrayed by Bruce Willis (Die Hard), characters in the Terminator movies and series, Firefly, Angel, etc. Star Trek, Star Wars, Battle Star Galactica, Matrix, X-Men, Lord of the Rings. I believe even Martin Sheen's character in Two and a Half Men was popular. If I were to go into less popular movies I could include such as The Scorpion King (in which some women were good fighters, but the men were poster children for testosterone who were even better fighters). I wouldn't consider any of these characters as "emasculating men." Does anyone think they are? If so, how?

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That wasn't exhaustive by any means. I could easily throw in The Hunger Games, Twilight, and Vikings and more. ('Course maybe someone thinks most of the male vampires were a bunch of "whipped" pretty boys and that's emasculating, or that the Hunger Games had a girl who was a better and more resourceful fighter than her male love interests and they consider that emasculating, and if so then say so! THEN I'll know what you mean. I'd disagree, but at least I wouldn't be mystified by the claim and then I could explore why it's seen as emasculating.)

If it's so rampant then it's easy to list examples, just as it was for me to list examples of why I wasn't seeing it. For example, say The Sopranos (if applicable). That would be perfect. It's popular and not intended as comedy. Were the male mobsters dominated by their wives and girlfriends? Was the show "emasculating" to the men? Since I only saw the first 4 eps I don't really know (it wasn't in those eps but I have no idea where the show went after).

The Game of Thrones would be another excellent example (if it applies) and if that's the case then I'd see your point. And ditto for True Blood, Breaking Bad, CIS, Walking Dead, Doctor Who, Grey's Anatomy, 24, Bones, etc. These are all shows I've heard of but have seen little to nothing. Do these examples show proof of your assertions, or the assertions of others who say similar things? I'd be surprised but I'd check it out and I'd be fascinated if it were true. OTOH, if none of these examples listed apply then I'd be curious why people were insisting it were true when there was no basis for saying so.

Of course these shows I list are popular in the United States and entirely different series may be popular in other countries that I know nothing about which could be very different in tone (I'd still be very interested because it would suggest things about the culture and I would eagerly look into it).

I'm not cross examining you (nor is the question specifically aimed at you but at everyone making claims like the media is "emasculating" males). I'm trying to find something solid to look at. I can't recall anyone making such assertions giving solid examples unless it was a show that was supposed to be silly and had everyone looking foolish at some point (for example, the Simpsons, though the dominant women were often on the crazy side themselves, from Marge to her sisters to Principal Skinner's mother, and don't forget the teachers). If it can be asserted so confidently then why can't easily recognized examples be given? (And if such shows don't exist, or only as shows not that popular, then why are there people asserting something not true? )

My Scorpio Jupiter wants to know!

posted June 30, 2014 12:47 PM            

I don't live in the US and while we do have American TV shows on here, I don't actually watch them (used to, and still happens from time to time, but the list is very limited). However, we do have shows on here that put the female in an over-powering position, and the man is often portrayed as being 'less than' (one I can think of is a kind of realistic show that's really aimed to entertain people, so of course it can't be taken too seriously... but it still promotes that kind of dynamic, even subtly. It's called "Un gars, une fille" (= A guy, a girl).

I think the actual effect of such scenarios is subtle, because they are funny and exaggerated but if you watch that kind of thing hundreds of times our brains tend to be influenced by that, even on a subconscious level. Well, that's my theory, I don't have real data to back it up.

There are other things to take into account, especially books and the Internet where people post a lot of things that can influence others. While it may not be part of the media (not sure how you guys define it exactly), it still reaches a lot of people.
E.g. Women who write articles on how women should be and behave; sexist articles that degrade men, etc.

posted June 30, 2014 12:55 PM            

Anytime there's anything about gender roles, sexual orientation, etc she's on it. Why do we have to justify our opinions and she has to force feed us hers? It's bullying and unnecessary.

posted June 30, 2014 01:21 PM            

I am not a feminist, NO! I love men being gentlemen, opening doors for women, holding their hands, giving their seats, etc.

I just wanted to find out if there was a way out of Venus Saturn square. It is the blockage. I know that i should look for a partner way older than me and that's ok with me. I don't even like men my age or younger - 7 years older is just great, maybe even more. But before i find a man, i want to find myself. That's why i keep rejecting all of them, thinking that something is wrong with them. Actually it is with me. And not with my looks or character, just with my own insecurities and problems. Finally i have understood that.

Yes, all the advices that say - be yourself, they are great, indeed. But they are not helping, because that i do know that i have to be myself.. i am myself. But this "myself" isn't coming out when i am with people. It is blocked. Instead of that there is some kind of mask that has been put on - and it is different for different people. I have grown as a woman a lot. People who knew me in high school wouldn't know me now. Basically a different person. I was very shy and insecure then. Now i am social! I've come to the point when i feel comfortable with people, that is why i have many friends now. But it doesn't help. I think they feel that this is not real me. I am the kind of girl that loves poetry, art, that dreams a lot and is completely out of this world, and there are just a few people that know this real me. Actually these are the only people that understand me and whom i can let into my personal space.

posted June 30, 2014 01:25 PM            

It isn't even a media world that I've seen. I'm aware that in that media world, there are conflicting messages: There's a more official, progressive message of saying the right things about equality, more of "say" than of "do", outside of a few premium cable shows like Breaking Bad, or Orange is the New Black, that act on those messages, where you get "assertive women" as major characters on display, a decision motivated partly by an activist spirit but probably equally by a need for novelty and spice to keep ratings up.

More commonly though, you get the "do" of a popular media which is more instinctive and less thoughtful, one that is more traditionally exploitative. It also offers a message, but seeing that it is the traditional one, it doesn't get talked about as much as seen. No one openly advocates it, usually, but you see it constantly. You get a mostly implied message that feminists are either deluded or tyrannical, and the traditional depiction of women as eager sex objects is just "natural": "It's what they want!"

But that's what happens in a time of social upheaval: Dramatically conflicting messages, and a lot of people freaking out because everything is changing.

P.S. After reading Barbie's latest response, "on those shows Pixie mentioned the girls are either important because of their looks or because they're so badass", yeah, that's what I mean by conflicting messages.

posted June 30, 2014 02:30 PM            

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Originally posted by Barbiegirl19:
What I don't understand is why anyone who has an opinion has to give you examples Pixie Jane? It's her opinion, that she's entitled to, no one said you had to agree with it. Not sure why you always feel the need to critique everyone. It's very condescending and it's a form of bullying. Can you for once keep your arrogance about EVERYTHING to yourself and let people express their OWN thoughts.

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No, it's me asking a question. Sweeping statements of "Emasculating men in the process of empowering women was not cool, is not cool" is made and though at first I think it's just AG and ignore it a couple of others then validate it so I start to wonder maybe there IS something to this, though I can't imagine what it is because I don't see the basis for it.

That doesn't mean I have to be "right" or I get upset or feel personally attacked or bullied if others don't just validate everything I say. You're assuming I'm like you, but that's not the case. (Btw, when I "yell" it would "LOOK LIKE THIS!" just for future reference when you think I'm yelling.) What I'm hoping for is the ability to understand. IIRC you brag about having opinions you won't change and that's fine. But also unlike you I AM willing to change my opinion IF I can be given something concrete to work with.

posted June 30, 2014 02:37 PM            

The one I really liked that was just a few days ago (in an email with someone from LL) was how someone interpreted the nude scene in The Little Girl Who Lived Down the Lane. I'd said I didn't care for this because I figured it was just to generate controversy to sell more tickets (especially as they got the girl's older sister to "double" her) and thus when the scene comes up it pulls me out of the story. But the person I was trading emails with then gave me an alternative possibility was given that the scene is pivotal to the character, the one time we see her happy (she's smiling the whole time) and trusting, the one time she felt safe to let her guard down and it transforms her. And then I remembered that the author of the book was heavily involved with the creation of the movie and I thought that was entire possible, that the author had been the one to make sure the scene got in to convey that (since movies require visuals as they can't otherwise explain what the book does). It would make so much sense.

This contrary view to me didn't make me upset, feel bullied, or otherwise think I was being personally attacked. Far from it, I had a new perspective (one that wasn't a vague statement but dealt with specifics that I could see and experience) and I LOVED it, was actually grateful for it (I think now I can watch the scene without being pulled out of the story).

Also, I can learn a lot about cultural trends and societal thought by the media. I could give examples of that as well, but I don't think you're interested in that. Suffice to say if I could find actual examples of this "emasculating media" that have upset one or two people then maybe I could gain insights into certain aspects of society. Or conversely, I could find out what was seen as emasculating that I wouldn't...perhaps what's seen as "emasculating" is the idea that any woman is empowered at all, such as those who got upset when a loving father had Mario & the Princess in Donkey Kong change places as his 3-year-old daughter asked him to, and rather than seeing this as an act of a loving father to his daughter it was seen as "men bashing" and even wishing the 3-year-old dead "so there'd be one less feminist in the world" (never mind that if this were feminism then it would be the father, but then they do tend to confuse feminism with gender).

This did not threaten me, hurt me, make me feel bullied, or otherwise upset. I ENJOYED it because it showed me perspectives I hadn't thought of before. With concrete examples I realized my observation was flawed and I accepted that with gratitude, not get upset or say I was being bullied.

posted June 30, 2014 02:40 PM            

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Originally posted by Barbiegirl19:
Stop derailing the thread and go away shoving your logic and questions on everybody. I never said you were like me, no can be but myself....

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I did not derail, I asked for clarification to what others brought up (so if anyone derailed then they did). Clarification that for some reason no one is willing to provide. Why is that?

Don't mistake me for you. I really do want to understand, which you don't. You brag that you can't have your mind change and assume I can't either. You think I'm attacking someone who thinks differently because that what's you yourself often do when I'm just asking for clarification.

posted June 30, 2014 03:09 PM            

If I may try to give some clarification on some people's point of view. One that I often have when having these kinds of things with you.
Many people are stubborn. I'm of the OPINION that you are stubborn. Many many many of us are. It's not meant as an insult. I'm stubborn also.

Example here, those shows. If examples are given back to you, or your examples questioned. It goes deeper. You'll question the examples given.
Next thing you know, more shows are coming into conversation. Characters of shows are being analyzed and even scenes will be brought into it to demonstrate the example that people are trying to prove.
You know what I mean? You see and say, "I need examples". Often times, we see an endless debate/battle. Kind of like what was going on in the DMV thread.
There is no end.

posted June 30, 2014 03:23 PM            

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Originally posted by Lonake:
Hi bansheequeen, your insight is very clear and spot on re: media in the 2nd paragraph i was literally: i feel its so true. and your comments on the messages to men, I can see a bit of that too. It is a very specific message that you stated, hmm thinking more on it now I think I might see that more in music than in movies/tv but ill be on the lookout for it more, just something else to consider in this whole media mishmash I feel like, off the top, that message may be geared toward younger men but ill keep my eyes open in the future.

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Yeah true it's all mostly media for teen to twenties guys, but then the majority of media in America is targeted to that group. Axe body spray commercials are ridiculous. And it's just strange how acceptable porn has become. To the point where guys will talk about it at work and it's okay. I'm not trying to get all catholic school nun here but such a casual approach to porn just goes to show how frivolous sex has become and how entitled men feel. It's to the point where girls always come crying to their friends about how their man watches porn and he doesn't see it as anything wrong or something he should stop for her.

posted June 30, 2014 03:31 PM            

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Originally posted by page one:
P.S. After reading Barbie's latest response, "on those shows Pixie mentioned the girls are either important because of their looks or because they're so badass", yeah, that's what I mean by conflicting messages.

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I'm not sure if that's a mixed message or more of a way to show the different kinds of women desirable to men. "Oh she's hot because she's like so hot!" "No way the chick on is other show is way hotter cause she's like hot but also she kicks ass!" If you hang out with a lot of nerdy guys you'll know what I mean. They get off on badass chicks. Personally, I don't think that is any better because she is still a one sided character whose traits are based on attractiveness to men.

posted June 30, 2014 03:34 PM            

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Originally posted by DeepFreeze:
Example here, those shows. If examples are given back to you, or your examples questioned. It goes deeper. You'll question the examples given.
Next thing you know, more shows are coming into conversation. Characters of shows are being analyzed and even scenes will be brought into it to demonstrate the example that people are trying to prove.
You know what I mean?

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Just so you know I've had conversations on the net asking for examples and I have been swayed when those examples were given. When I was given clear examples I generally didn't interrogate them. Some examples of shows and movies I were given in fairly recent online conversations I did say didn't seem to apply yet others I said were very good examples of what they were trying to get across (and reminded me of others that also fit their description) which goes to show a good example can sway me.

Furthermore, I also like to understand how people think even if I don't agree (as then I can work interesting characters into my fiction stories as well as my Scorpio Jupiter enjoying it) and more than once I simply focused on why someone thought something rather than critiquing the idea itself. Therefore this isn't me trying to start a fight, it's me trying to understand, either what's being talked about or how it was being interpreted.

posted June 30, 2014 08:58 PM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
That reminds me of my mom who used to be a model. She described how they really made her up, in extreme cases she'd have to sit or stand still for HOURS as they very carefully had their professionals spruce her up (which they'd already done before she was still), though granted this was often because whoever was taking the pix couldn't make up his mind about what look was best. In the end it was a look impossible for any female to achieve.

And then they'd dabble on just a bit of the product they were trying to sell. And the advertisement basically said (or at least implied) that if you use that product you could look just as impossibly beautiful, sexy, and/or sophisticated.

All in all I remember that every time I hear this song and see this vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhC1pI76Rqo

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Yeah, it's kind of sad how things are portrayed. I know ppl say "sex sells" but really women are the target audience for those types of ads so all they accomplish imo is making girls/women insecure that they don't measure up (and so they'd better go spend some money on those products). Meanwhile there's still an unrealistic standard being portrayed to men- who lets be honest aren't usually objectified in the same way in the media.

posted June 30, 2014 09:24 PM            

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Originally posted by Lonake:
But seriously no one else saw this in their classrooms growing up? That's so odd to me because it was such a big part of my school environment, the girls and their achievements were continually emphasized, if a boy did something of note it was generally unacknowledged or downplayed. And they were also publicly derided by staff, but not so for girls.
I'd like to think that classrooms have changed and more than that, that my experience wasn't the norm..a good thought indeed

FireMoon I think you might've touched on one of the key issues in the media, the stereotype being women live to shop, and teenage girls in particular have a lot of buying power. Interesting perspective.
But funny thing is, when I'm watching a movie or tv show I'm looking more at the writing, the story, and how that story affects me than I am at the products used. Hope I'm not unique in that regard.

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I see what you're saying. Although I started out at a private school where there were equally high standards for everyone- you were just expected to do your best. Followed by a public school where my impression was no one really gave a sh*t lol. And it's true there are more women enrolled on college than men, but if you break it down by degree programs- and which ones are actually making money (science and engineering vs liberal arts for example) there's still a huge divide. To generalize I think boys are encouraged and expected to like math and science (logical thinking) while girls are expected to like things like art, literature, etc. (emotional subjects) So maybe there's more praise and cooing over girls accomplishments, but I don't see how it makes much of a difference when you look at where everything ends up..

posted June 30, 2014 10:33 PM            

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Originally posted by FireMoon:
I see what you're saying. Although I started out at a private school where there were equally high standards for everyone- you were just expected to do your best. Followed by a public school where my impression was no one really gave a sh*t lol. And it's true there are more women enrolled on college than men, but if you break it down by degree programs- and which ones are actually making money (science and engineering vs liberal arts for example) there's still a huge divide. To generalize I think boys are encouraged and expected to like math and science (logical thinking) while girls are expected to like things like art, literature, etc. (emotional subjects) So maybe there's more praise and cooing over girls accomplishments, but I don't see how it makes much of a difference when you look at where everything ends up..

Also very true, I'd much rather watch an independent or foreign film with an interesting story than a generic chick flick/action movie, but unfortunately since the media has become so syndicated theres is an uneven playing field at least in the US and those don't tend to reach as wide of audiences..

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posted June 30, 2014 10:42 PM            

It's awesome to see you back on LL, Lonake I'm not sure if you've been around in other forums, but I haven't seen you post in a really long time. I've missed you and I'm really excited that you're back!

On topic: I can't really relate so I probably won't go there. I am ok with embracing my feminine energy. I neither put feminine power/energy on a pedestal.. nor do I downplay it.
It's just not a topic that really resonates with me.. I'm basically in Cappy's boat lol … but slightly less cynical

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Just because you're female it doesn't mean you should strive to be 100% yin. Each of us has both yin and yang and their expression varies individually.

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posted June 30, 2014 10:57 PM            

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Originally posted by aquaguy91:
Could it be that boys are generally pulled to certain things and girls are pulled to other stuff? I know alot of feminist types want to deny it but men and women are fundamentally different, thats just a fact.

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