posted August 25, 2014 08:38 PM              

I know someone with sun in 0 degrees Leo. He was the shyest guy in the class. He was very sweet and we were friends. He was very sensitive, and would always ask to reassure if we were friends. He was a typical cancer, and not a Leo in any way.

I know a Sagittarius born on 22nd November, and he's such an extrovert. He travels a lot, flirts, talks a lot. He makes jokes and is honest. He is a complete Sagittarius. Nothing like a Scorpio. Even tho his mercury is in Scorpio.

I know someone who has sun just entering Pisces, and is nothing like a Pisces. He is an Aquarius, and an Aquarius in every way. He's open-minded, never believes in things blindly, he always talks about right and wrong, is serious, and confident.

Here's a very good explanation by a professional astrologer.

You don't believe me, then read what he has to say. If you don't read his article, don't bother to argue. You can read the article and THEN disagree if you want.

posted August 25, 2014 11:25 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by KingofCups:
Your argument is contradictory to the article. You write that you knew someone who was born with his Natal Sun at 0 Leo. According to the article, this would mean that he should behave not like a Cancer Sun but like a Leo Sun. You, on the other hand, argue that this friend of yours behaves like a Cancer Sun. And then, you argue that your other friend who should be like a Pisces according to the article behaves like an Aquarian and not like a Pisces. You do make an argument that would support the article: that of the Sagittarian. But that pretty much means that you are not only refuting the article but also yourself. I feel like you need to see the whole chart before coming to conclusions like this one. I am not on one side or the other when it comes to this topic as I am still learning, but by giving examples that fit either viewpoint, I feel as though you've actually attempted to disprove the argument provided in the article.

---

I hoped that people would know why. But it's ok, I'll explain.

The zodiac signs are not fixed every year on the same time on the date it changes. Sometimes it can fluctuate even a whole day ahead or behind. Why? Because zodiac signs change according to the time the sun rises and sets.

Okay, here's an example to understand better:

Aries start exactly when, the days start getting longer than the night. The exact point between Aries and Pisces is equinox, the same for the exact point between Virgo and Libra. Now, Aries start exactly when the days start getting longer than the nights. But every year, the day is not exactly the exact same hour and minute, when the equinox occurs. The same for each and every sign.

That is why when any planet, moon or the sun is at a cusp, the only way we can check with the person's personality and if we cannot do that, we have to ask the weather network system or something like that that keeps all the records of the duration if day and nights.

It's the science behind astrology. You should check out santos bonacci's videos on YouTube. It's interesting and he explains everything.

posted August 25, 2014 11:32 PM              

quote:

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Originally posted by IV XXIV:
Yeah, I'm not quite sure where you're getting at because you made one statement then digressed into a paradox.

I'm on the Aries/Taurus cusp and I always saw a lot of Aries in me but I also have Aries Mercury and Venus and a 12th house stellium in Aries.. So.. Lol

---

What is the paradox? Maybe you're thinking the same thing as @KingOfCups. I have explained that in my previous post.

With your sun at the cusp of Aries and Taurus, do you feel anything like a Taurus?

Because you have more planets in Aries, and no planets in Taurus, you should see if you feel anything like a Taurus.

If not, you're probably just an Aries because if you were a Taurus you should feel it since no matter how much stellium you have in another sign, the sun sign is always very prominently felt.

Also notice if you feel a familiarity with other Taureans.

posted August 25, 2014 11:38 PM              

quote:

---

Originally posted by KingofCups:
Your argument is contradictory to the article. You write that you knew someone who was born with his Natal Sun at 0 Leo. According to the article, this would mean that he should behave not like a Cancer Sun but like a Leo Sun. You, on the other hand, argue that this friend of yours behaves like a Cancer Sun. And then, you argue that your other friend who should be like a Pisces according to the article behaves like an Aquarian and not like a Pisces. You do make an argument that would support the article: that of the Sagittarian. But that pretty much means that you are not only refuting the article but also yourself. I feel like you need to see the whole chart before coming to conclusions like this one. I am not on one side or the other when it comes to this topic as I am still learning, but by giving examples that fit either viewpoint, I feel as though you've actually attempted to disprove the argument provided in the article.

---

The point if the article is just that, no one can have two signs. It's either one or the other.

But when the signs change can slightly vary each year, for the same reason I explained earlier.

posted August 26, 2014 12:12 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by MiaPluto:
What is the paradox? Maybe you're thinking the same thing as @KingOfCups. I have explained that in my previous post.

With your sun at the cusp of Aries and Taurus, do you feel anything like a Taurus?

Because you have more planets in Aries, and no planets in Taurus, you should see if you feel anything like a Taurus.

If not, you're probably just an Aries because if you were a Taurus you should feel it since no matter how much stellium you have in another sign, the sun sign is always very prominently felt.

Also notice if you feel a familiarity with other Taureans.

---

posted August 26, 2014 12:17 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by MiaPluto:
I hoped that people would know why. But it's ok, I'll explain.

The zodiac signs are not fixed every year on the same time on the date it changes. Sometimes it can fluctuate even a whole day ahead or behind. Why? Because zodiac signs change according to the time the sun rises and sets.

Okay, here's an example to understand better:

Aries start exactly when, the days start getting longer than the night. The exact point between Aries and Pisces is equinox, the same for the exact point between Virgo and Libra. Now, Aries start exactly when the days start getting longer than the nights. But every year, the day is not exactly the exact same hour and minute, when the equinox occurs. The same for each and every sign.

That is why when any planet, moon or the sun is at a cusp, the only way we can check with the person's personality and if we cannot do that, we have to ask the weather network system or something like that that keeps all the records of the duration if day and nights.

It's the science behind astrology. You should check out santos bonacci's videos on YouTube. It's interesting and he explains everything.

---

posted August 26, 2014 12:27 AM              

quote:

---

Originally posted by KingofCups:
You realize that the computer takes care of that kind of time adjustment, right? You don't have to do any sort of calculation or be a weather agency if you use a website to do it for you. If your chart shows your Sun at 0 Aries, then you were born after the precise moment at which the days began to be longer than the nights, and if you are born at 29 Virgo, then you are born before the precise moment at which the days become shorter than the nights. So, it is possible that your "Sagittarian" friend is born at 29 Scorpio. You can very easily find that out for sure if you know his/her exact time of birth. As for the friend with Sun at 0 Leo, his/her Sun IS at 0 Leo if the time and location that you are using are correct. There is no adjustment that has to be made.
The computer does the math for you.

---

In the birth charts my dear, they do not look at the exact motion of the SUN like they do with the planets. The sun is always in a fixed motion in the natal charts.

No matter what year you put, if you put the same day and time it with different years and generate the charts, you will notice that the sun will always be in the same degree exact (the hour/minute/seconds) in the natal charts. They do this because the sun never goes retrograde and has a very slight difference in motion. So they don't pay great attention to it, naturally.

So if someone's sun is at the cusp, they need to pay greater attention to the detail of the day of their birth. Because the natal charts don't do that.

posted August 26, 2014 12:31 AM              

quote:

---

Originally posted by IV XXIV:
I have Taurus sun and AC. I have the calm, cool, collected-ness that Taurus is known for, and I'm also much more easygoing, laid back, and slow to anger than an Aries would be.

---

So with a Taurus ascendant with a stellium in Aries? With the sun at the cusp...

We've got a complicated situation here.

You're the best judge for your own self, since I don't know you personally.

posted August 26, 2014 12:40 AM            

Furthermore, I don't see why it would seem silly to say the energies can't mix. They do all the time in the real world. An example off the top of my head is that the oceans and rivers are different yet where they meet is a hybrid (called brackish, the River/Ocean cusp so to speak), for that matter water contains many liquids other than H20, it's rarely pure (similar to how someone's chart is rarely one energy).

If you want to say that's physical and astrology is metaphysical, fine, but my metaphysical understanding of astrology is that it's psychic energy reflected back at us through the Collective Unconscious, and when the sun crosses (cusps) then both symbols each reflect some of that energy back (and thus "brackish").

I see it as similar socially, too. For example, a good friend of mine was raised by Russians in the United States. While on paper she's an American she can easily pass for Russian to Americans when she wants (though she can't fool Russians into thinking she's Russian) and she demonstrates common characteristics of both Russians and Americans...but doesn't fully mesh with either. She's essentially "an American born on the Russian cusp" in which Russian thought & idiosyncrasies have made an obvious impact on her character, though she is an American first.

posted August 26, 2014 12:49 AM              

quote:

---

Originally posted by PixieJane:
I found the reasoning of the article weak. Though I will say I personally count "planetary cusps" as well as the sun sign (which is the obvious thing to do to me). And I've read up on my own Libra/Scorpio cusp (stellium) and it matches me more than either pure Libra or Scorpio.

Furthermore, I don't see why it would seem silly to say the energies can't mix. They do all the time in the real world. An example off the top of my head is that the oceans and rivers are different yet where they meet is a hybrid (called brackish, the River/Ocean cusp so to speak), for that matter water contains many liquids other than H20, it's rarely pure (similar to how someone's chart is rarely one energy).

If you want to say that's physical and astrology is metaphysical, fine, but my metaphysical understanding of astrology is that it's psychic energy reflected back at us through the Collective Unconscious, and when the sun crosses (cusps) then both symbols each reflect some of that energy back (and thus "brackish").

I see it as similar socially, too. For example, a good friend of mine was raised by Russians in the United States. While on paper she's an American she can easily pass for Russian to Americans when she wants (though she can't fool Russians into thinking she's Russian) and she demonstrates common characteristics of both Russians and Americans...but doesn't fully mesh with either. She's essentially "an American born on the Russian cusp" in which Russian thought & idiosyncrasies have made an obvious impact on her character, though she is an American first.

And I'm a strawberry blonde, btw. My dad is definitely ginger, my mom is a platinum blonde, and me...a bit of both. Perhaps it's just coincidence (or even an unexpected side effect of my being born on a Libra/Scorpio cusp?) but I'm the only strawberry blonde on either side of the family (and I've been mistaken for a redhead before depending on the light), and I am neither platinum blonde or redhead, I'm a bit of both, a "blonde/ginger cusp" if you will...and not a freak of nature for it.

---

You can't really compare hair colour/language with zodiac signs, now can you?

But I must ask, if you have any planets in either Libra or Scorpio? And what is the exact degree of your sun stated in the natal charts?

Thanks x

posted August 26, 2014 01:16 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by MiaPluto:
In the birth charts my dear, they do not look at the exact motion of the SUN like they do with the planets. The sun is always in a fixed motion in the natal charts.

No matter what year you put, if you put the same day and time it with different years and generate the charts, you will notice that the sun will always be in the same degree exact (the hour/minute/seconds) in the natal charts. They do this because the sun never goes retrograde and has a very slight difference in motion. So they don't pay great attention to it, naturally.

So if someone's sun is at the cusp, they need to pay greater attention to the detail of the day of their birth. Because the natal charts don't do that.

---

No, it won't. The Solar Return I generated for this year has a time that's three hours after the time at which I was born. If you were to put in a time three hours prior to that, you'd find that the Sun would be in a position before where it is in my Natal chart. I realize that the Sun doesn't move. But the Earth is constantly in motion, and we do perceive the Sun as moving through the constellations.

posted August 26, 2014 01:35 AM              

quote:

---

Originally posted by KingofCups:
No, it won't. The Solar Return I generated for this year has a time that's three hours after the time at which I was born. If you were to put in a time three hours prior to that, you'd find that the Sun would be in a position before where it is in my Natal chart. I realize that the Sun doesn't move. But the Earth is constantly in motion, and we do perceive the Sun as moving through the constellations.

Also, why is it any different to compare time to Astrology as it is to compare water? They are both arbitrary things that really have nothing to do with Astrology at all. Two people decided to use them to further their respective arguments. You chose to side with one, but I don't understand why one comparison is any more or any less correct than the other. If anything, at least water flows like psychic energy is thought to; time may not even do that. And to be fair, time to an extent is a human creation, at least when the days change. We could all decide that the day would start at what is now noon, and we could switch it to that as long as we stay consistent. We can't decide that the boundary between fresh and salt water will be different though, because it can't be (unless we do a lot of digging, but that's not the point).

---

Are you sure? Maybe your solar return has different sun because of location or something idk. I personally tried this and for me the sun was exactly the same.

And really? I thought it was the sun that moved around the earth. I didn't know the earth moved around the sun! Wow!

The chart that generates the placements of the sun is not 100000% accurate, you know.

Having mercury in Virgo and being a Virgo, I have a wee bit of something called common sense.

If the sun is at 0.01 degrees Leo, it doesn't necessarily mean that it can't be cancer.

The placements of the luminaries and planets in the natal charts can actually vary slightly. Computers are not gods.

And I do not believe that they don't place the sun at the exact degree in the natal charts every year.

They actually already know the Ephemeris of couple of years ahead of any given date or time. So why would you think they would specifically note the exact position of the sun everyday, every minute if they don't even do that with the planets? They already know which planet is going retrograde and when in the future.

The sun, if it changes motion it is extremely slight. So they of course, don't care enough to do that.

posted August 26, 2014 09:38 AM            

If you are an Aries Sun with Moon,Mercury, Venus and Mars in Pisces.You might strongly identify with the Pisces Sun energy- even if you are nowhere near a cusp.

But say a person who has Pisces Sun,Moon in Aries,Venus in Aries and Mars there. They may strongly identify with Aries. And the fact that they are born on a "cusp" will convince them that they have the energy f both etc.

This is also true with people who have stelliums in a house.

A stellium in 3rd house- your life has much variety,many changes of residences and meeting differing people etc. You may strongly resonate with Gemini Sun sign description-even though your Sun is in Capricorn

A stellium in 4th house with Cancer Ascending for an Aquarius Sun may have them believe that they were born in a completely differing time to the sign they resonate with. This is because their life is marred by domestic issues,family issues,issues of belonging and all things "Cancer" related.

But it is only upon closer inspection that we see that the Capricorn Sun- with stellium in 3rd- is more intent on building an empire or using the very many varying experiences to carve a career. That's when we see that we are dealing with a Capricorn and not a Gemini.

posted August 26, 2014 11:10 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by MiaPluto:
Are you sure? Maybe your solar return has different sun because of location or something idk. I personally tried this and for me the sun was exactly the same.

And really? I thought it was the sun that moved around the earth. I didn't know the earth moved around the sun! Wow!

The chart that generates the placements of the sun is not 100000% accurate, you know.

Having mercury in Virgo and being a Virgo, I have a wee bit of something called common sense.

If the sun is at 0.01 degrees Leo, it doesn't necessarily mean that it can't be cancer.

The placements of the luminaries and planets in the natal charts can actually vary slightly. Computers are not gods.

And I do not believe that they don't place the sun at the exact degree in the natal charts every year.

They actually already know the Ephemeris of couple of years ahead of any given date or time. So why would you think they would specifically note the exact position of the sun everyday, every minute if they don't even do that with the planets? They already know which planet is going retrograde and when in the future.

The sun, if it changes motion it is extremely slight. So they of course, don't care enough to do that.

---

Ya, I just checked. The Sun moves back about 14' every year for today's date at the exact same time at least for the next five or so years. I realize also that there maybe minuscule errors, so perhaps for someone who has it at 0*0'0" of a particular sign (or within a few seconds thereof) could perhaps be of the sign prior to it. But that argument is still different from the one the article is giving. You're arguing that people born on cusps shouldn't take the computer's word for the exact position of the Sun at their time of birth. The article argues that people born on cusps aren't hybrids.

posted August 26, 2014 12:06 PM            

Of course energies can blend and reflect Mia, otherwise you'd never see anything but a person's Sun sign amd there would be no use or meaning to the other planets in a person's chart.

Ive known quite a few cusp born people who disply traits of both signs depending on the given situation.

posted August 26, 2014 12:18 PM              

quote:

---

Originally posted by LionFish:
Your argument doesnt make sense.. And your explanation of your argument has nothing to do with it.. *facepalm*

Of course energies can blend and reflect Mia, otherwise you'd never see anything but a person's Sun sign amd there would be no use or meaning to the other planets in a person's chart.

Ive known quite a few cusp born people who disply traits of both signs depending on the given situation.

Also, the insulting attitude toward others is unnecessary.. You cant post a debatable topic and get mad when people disagree with your (extremely convoluted) opinion..

---

Let me tell you what DOESN'T make sense to me; a single celestial body composed of the energies of two signs.

Never did I say that the whole chart of a person does not compose to make the total of that person's energy.

Never did I say that two planets conjunct or aspecting each other do not exchange or blend energies.

What I said was that the energies of TWO signs never blend together at all. It is completely ridiculous. It's like saying oil and water can mix together. No. Just no

Oh, and please do tell, how exactly have I insulted anyone here? Yes, I am debating, but I am giving reasons and explanations.

I believe in it YOU saying that my ideas or reasons are convoluted. Speak for yourself. x

posted August 26, 2014 12:41 PM              

quote:

---

Originally posted by KingofCups:
Ya, I just checked. The Sun moves back about 14' every year for today's date at the exact same time at least for the next five or so years. I realize also that there maybe minuscule errors, so perhaps for someone who has it at 0*0'0" of a particular sign (or within a few seconds thereof) could perhaps be of the sign prior to it. But that argument is still different from the one the article is giving. You're arguing that people born on cusps shouldn't take the computer's word for the exact position of the Sun at their time of birth. The article argues that people born on cusps aren't hybrids.

You also have Pluto in the Ninth, which makes you stubborn about your beliefs even if they are ever-changing. Mercury and the Sun are Combust, which is known for creating single-minded focus. And you're the one who said that you were more like a Pisces than a Virgo. Pisces logic and Virgo logic are very different, but you probably already knew that

---

The person who wrote the argument never said that the computer is perfect and it should only be seen from the computer to see what sign the person is on the cusp. He only argues about sun not being in two signs at the same time. If he does talk about looking exactly the sun's orbit with the computer generated natal chart, then please let me know. Although I believe that when I read the article I found no such thing.

Yes, Pluto in 9th makes me stubborn about my beliefs. And it also has asteroid quoaoar (however you spell it) exactly conjunct it.

First of all, no one thinks like their ascendant. They only act and react like them. Your logic is always primarily given to the sun and mercury. My Pisces ascendant is only my outer mask and reactions and actions. My inner personality, thoughts are Virgo. I was taught that when I first started learning astrology.

No, my mercury is not combust the sun. Combustion is when a planet is within 7 degrees of the sun. My mercury is 8 degrees away, so it is a good distance. It's called cazimi.

The mercury too far (15 degrees away) or closer to the sun can be problematic. And with mercury retrograde, I don't just blurt out anything. I think before speaking. I first research, find good reasons before giving my point of view, not to mention mercury is in its exaltation.

The reason I am so forceful with my opinions can be because of my Jupiter square Mars. Jupiter is in Aquarius and Mars in Scorpio. They are exactly square and in fixed signs.

They are in 12th and 8th house respectively. The houses of hidden knowledge, occult, etc. Astrolada explains about this aspect in her video.

I fight for my beliefs and my beliefs are fixed because Jupiter and Mars are in fixed signs.

Also, my mercury squares Pluto. I think that speaks for itself.

posted August 26, 2014 12:47 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by MiaPluto:
Let me tell you what DOESN'T make sense to me; a single celestial body composed of the energies of two signs.

Never did I say that the whole chart of a person does not compose to make the total of that person's energy.

Never did I say that two planets conjunct or aspecting each other do not exchange or blend energies.

What I said was that the energies of TWO signs never blend together at all. It is completely ridiculous. It's like saying oil and water can mix together. No. Just no

Oh, and please do tell, how exactly have I insulted anyone here? Yes, I am debating, but I am giving reasons and explanations.

I believe in it YOU saying that my ideas or reasons are convoluted. Speak for yourself. x

---

What about Houses? Each house correlates with a specific sign. I'll use myself as an example. I have a Stellium in Aquarius. I also have part of that Stellium plus a couple more planets in the Fifth House. I am very Aquarian, but I also have certain traits that a Leo might have. And all of the Houses work like this. If you have your Sun in Leo in the Fourth House, your Sun will be a mix between Leo traits as well as Cancer traits.

Also, Astrology is based on the planets, not the signs. Each sign is ruled by a planet. Signs do not rule the planets, however. Therefore, if you believe that aspecting planets blend energies, or an even better example, that planets Conjunct across signs or houses blend energies, then it is possible for the energy of the signs to blend as well. For example, in an aspect between Sun and Pluto, you are mixing the traits of Leo and Scorpio to some extent or another.

Lastly, you never answered:

quote:

---

Originally posted by KingofCups:
Also, why is it any different to compare time to Astrology as it is to compare water? They are both arbitrary things that really have nothing to do with Astrology at all. Two people decided to use them to further their respective arguments. You chose to side with one, but I don't understand why one comparison is any more or any less correct than the other. If anything, at least water flows like psychic energy is thought to; time may not even do that. And to be fair, time to an extent is a human creation, at least when the days change. We could all decide that the day would start at what is now noon, and we could switch it to that as long as we stay consistent. We can't decide that the boundary between fresh and salt water will be different though, because it can't be (unless we do a lot of digging, but that's not the point).

---

posted August 26, 2014 12:55 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by MiaPluto:
The person who wrote the argument never said that the computer is perfect and it should only be seen from the computer to see what sign the person is on the cusp. He only argues about sun not being in two signs at the same time. If he does talk about looking exactly the sun's orbit with the computer generated natal chart, then please let me know. Although I believe that when I read the article I found no such thing.

Yes, Pluto in 9th makes me stubborn about my beliefs. And it also has asteroid quoaoar (however you spell it) exactly conjunct it.

First of all, no one thinks like their ascendant. They only act and react like them. Your logic is always primarily given to the sun and mercury. My Pisces ascendant is only my outer mask and reactions and actions. My inner personality, thoughts are Virgo. I was taught that when I first started learning astrology.

No, my mercury is not combust the sun. Combustion is when a planet is within 7 degrees of the sun. My mercury is 8 degrees away, so it is a good distance. It's called cazimi.

The mercury too far (15 degrees away) or closer to the sun can be problematic. And with mercury retrograde, I don't just blurt out anything. I think before speaking. I first research, find good reasons before giving my point of view, not to mention mercury is in its exaltation.

The reason I am so forceful with my opinions can be because of my Jupiter square Mars. Jupiter is in Aquarius and Mars in Scorpio. They are exactly square and in fixed signs.

They are in 12th and 8th house respectively. The houses of hidden knowledge, occult, etc. Astrolada explains about this aspect in her video.

I fight for my beliefs and my beliefs are fixed because Jupiter and Mars are in fixed signs.

Also, my mercury squares Pluto. I think that speaks for itself.

---

posted August 26, 2014 01:05 PM              

quote:

---

Originally posted by KingofCups:
I never said he did. I said your argument and his were different, which they kind of are, not contradicting.
http://www.skyscript.co.uk/gl/combust.html
http://www.astrologyweekly.com/dictionary/combust.php
http://therealastrology.com/ask-kevin-topics/classical-astrology/228-combust-planets
Combust is 8*30'. Cazimi is within 17'.

---

I would appreciate if you could elaborate a little more about how my argument contradicts him.

Oh and for the combustion, I believe more in traditional astrology, and as Cornelius Agrippa and Ptolemy speaks, I believe it is 7 degrees. xx

posted August 26, 2014 01:25 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by MiaPluto:
I would appreciate if you could elaborate a little more about how my argument contradicts him.

Oh and for the combustion, I believe more in traditional astrology, and as Cornelius Agrippa and Ptolemy speaks, I believe it is 7 degrees. xx

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I said NOT contradicting.