posted July 22, 2016 11:43 AM            

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Originally posted by MarsSaturnDelight:
What about death by hiccup?

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posted July 22, 2016 11:45 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Kannon McAfee:
A lot of folks seem to be asking questions of astrologers in the vein of 'what's going to happen to me?' Astrology is not a fortune telling device -- unless you're wanting to pretend that you have no control in your life, that [b]it is just somehow happening to you.

Why not pretend instead that you chose these astrological factors in your birth chart when you were in a wiser place you've long forgotten, that life on earth is a challenging journey, that you are the lead character and are writing the story, and gain strength by becoming your own hero in that story?

Astrology is a collection of (planetary, zodiacal) energies that work upon consciousness, which means we can use our consciousness to direct these energies within ourselves and our lives in a constructive and more enlightened manner. THAT is what creates our outcomes.

An astrologer is not supposed to know your outcomes for you. YOU create them!

So as we elevate our consciousness to an understanding that our material circumstances are created by consciousness, and consciousness can be used -- and is constantly used by people everywhere -- to redirect these energies for better outcomes, then we see we are at the center of our own astrological influences and have always been in charge.

All this gains its sweetest purity when guided towards some version of the ideal of Unconditional Love (Compassion).

[/B]

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I understand, and I agree; I'm a lover of free will.

However by this logic, you would struggle to successfully rectify a chart - what events would be as a result of free will could cloud the real chart. Also, how can you be so sure of someone's Asc just by looking at their appearance? When really, that by this logic it's just potential, that could never really manifest. But you appear to be so sure in your assessments.

posted July 22, 2016 01:30 PM            

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Originally posted by Vajra:
^That's something I've seen happen many times as well. At the very least, it seems, a chart can be read as map of the physical body / of the psyche / of external influences involving one's role vis-avis other people (family, society) / of the course of one's life events from birth to death / of spiritual development / and probably there are several more layers.

Transits in my experience do indicate when something relevant happens; however, on what layer does it happen? Difficult to say if one doesn't know the entire situation of the person, including their state of consciousness and their prior life choices. That's were astrological intuition and experience comes in, and often one can indeed make a correct guess; but I've actually seen a very famous and experienced astrologer, after many impressive and correct analyses, insist that one test subject must have had severe relationship trouble at a certain time, most likely a devastating divorce - which was actually not the case, while in the end it turned out that this subject had instead, at the exact time mentioned by the astrologer, fallen ill with severe diabetes and nearly died. Wrong layer, in other words. The sugar metabolism is after all symbolized by the same astro markers as relationship issues.

One should always keep in mind that things can happen materially, as external events; purely internally/psychologically; or medically or on some other layer.

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posted July 22, 2016 01:49 PM            

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Originally posted by yungang_grotto:
There was a post on this astrology forum about predictive astrology and folks were weighing in on it. Thought to share my thoughts with you all too:

Ok thing.number one:

Time isn't linear.

Astrology is the ability to compare disparate moments in time to one another.

It is the ability to peer into time and space itself, if you have a certain combination of skill and dedication and intuition and clarity. You can only predict, only analyze, insofar as your own capacities for perception have been opened. ("when the doors of perception are cleansed")

Thing 2:

NOTHING is impossible. We are multi dimensional beings with an infinite capacity for understanding. The akashic records themselves may very well be intimately linked to astrology, like an enormous filing cabinet in which we find actual literal events taking place and can witness them from every possible angle of consciousness.

This is omnipresence. Obviously we here are just derivatives, holographic bits of THAT which is...

And we participate with one another compassionately to the best of our ability with what we have at any given moment... as astrologers, ideally... we focus in on the emotional, spiritual and physical crux of a situation in order to provide solace and inspiration to the querant...

Inspiration is not usually something that can be GIVEN But in the case of astrology a really good channel will be able to put that person in touch with their own innate knowing, which is really what the birth chart is... their own map. Their personal and unique and sacred lens on the ongoing cosmic epiphany of which we are all a part.

It is an honour and a joy to share with anybody in these sacred conversations which occur between native and their stars... to be the conduit which facilitates the communion with the self... it is different for everybody and everybody has unique things to learn.

The astrologer is not outside the workings of fate though, any more than the doctor, the chemist, the philosopher, who have all done harm in their ways too... Whether you are a catalyst or a fatalist or whatever you believe, the concept that something is destined to happen is at the core of the debate here, and it is unlikely to be solved very easily among us.

What would the point be of consulting an astrologer if everything were already laid out for you and there was no choice? It becomes a cause and effect question... did the astrologer kill him by predicting his death?

Well. Realistically I do truly believe in non linearity as a predominant reason that individuals CAN predict the future, with various extraordinary means... they're not right all the time and they acknowledge often that they are seeing the most likely result of the present reality... which changes with every tiniest fluctuation of anything...

But if somebody has been walking towards the edge of a cliff and you have a map in your hand, mightn't you want to tell them that they're about to go over, if you could help redirect them?

I see astrology as a non linear map of existence which actually provides infinite choice within the context of that which is, that which has already been, and that which will be. Astrology can be a powerful tool for examining minutae and then situating ourselves within the flow of time with clarity and awareness of the deep inner workings of the energetic currents at play. We branch out from this knowledge and fruit along with it. Astrology can be like breathing.. like going for a walk with a very beautifully detailed map which shows us the underground burrows and even the weather... The eagles... it is a living picture of life on earth, painted in the stars, communing with the turning, with the moon... it is beautiful!

Some very far out people... myself included... believe that we can energetically influence the past as well as the future and present. We can heal and protect retroactively. When we make a prayer it can be for everyone through endless time.

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posted July 22, 2016 03:33 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by venus2tinkerbell:
Ill be back to read the other comments. It looks like you all had some really interesting input. Thank you too

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posted July 23, 2016 12:28 PM            

Faith, as Sulkyarcher brought up, astrology describes energetic weather . It may be able to characterize the conditions, even the storm or sunny periods you may go through, but it does not determine outcomes of the person.

Let's make sure we don't confuse conditions with the person in them. Also, potential occurrences do not necessitate an unhealthy emotive anticipation, a defensive position.

This is a modern way to think about astrology consistent with the great humanist thinkers in astrology today like Robert Hand.

quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
Do you recall where Linda wrote that? She believed in free-will even to the extent that if we learn about our charts, we can rise above them. She also felt Love could erase Karma, that forgiveness could break Karmic chains, and that Astrology cannot predict death.

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Thanks Randall. However, if Linda believed this about astrology & death, she would have no basis in her daughter's chart for believing she was still alive when she was reported murdered.

The crux of the assertion in my original post is this:

--> We all exist as part of an 'energy soup' which gives rise to...
Consciousness which gives rise to (creates) matter. Yet we are trained to believe we all are embodied happenings of blind of nature which had the power to bring us into being and continues to rule us through various unavoidable physical laws. That is an outworn rather monarchic view of things that does not allow one to function very well in today's world and does not create personal empowerment.

When astrologers are able to predict certain events or occurrences, it is generally without regard to the human factor of intervening intention. Sometimes they predict after factoring in human tendency when it involves people. Some astrologers seem to be good at meteorologic/geologic prediction. Jim Berkland of syzygyjob.com has been predicting earthquakes for years using luminary periodicity. This is physics. He's not 100% accurate, but it seems too real to ignore.

The test is if we can use astrology constructively to better our lives. Predicting oddities like a boy falling off a bike, but not being able to understand and nourish one's own partnership throws astrology into the bargain bin of unwanted interests.

Similarly, predicting hiccups is irrelevant, because it has no real value, except perhaps to pad the ego of the predictor. This is where the 'rub' really starts. Many are invested in a notion of prediction because the need to know manifests in an ego structure of 'I know' (things you don't). Its very sly and subtle. I know, because I've had to deal with this within myself.

I've had to ask myself "Is practicing astrology about me or about empowering others?"

EmGem, what you are asking about progressions relates to the scientific ability to observe natural phenomenon and see the pattern and engage in good (but ever improving) ability to track the planets. That is not the prediction of outcomes for peoples desire to know 'what will happen to me.'

My response is Life does not have to 'happen to' you -- Happen to it!. Leave your mark with the wisdom you've gained, which started with Intentions enacted before you were even born! Astrology can be used to help you with this.

Astrology is an inter-dimensional science and phenomenon. It helps us transition from one dimension (of consciousness, existence) to another when we are born, and sets us up with a combination of energies we either deal with as karma or choose as our best intention. It is not merely a material phenomenon as defined by rationalist materialism.

yungang_grotto, good point, time is not linear. Therefore we cannot - when a human is are involved (with a history and trajectory 99% hidden from we observers) - predict in a point A to point B, cause-result manner. It honors the human being to allow for free will at every turn, even as to when they turn off their own hiccups.

venus2tinkerbell, synchronicity!

Ami, the greatest portion of our choice is enacted before we were born. It is our amnesia that interferes. It is like traveling to another country, waking up the next day in a hotel and forgetting at first where you are or how you got there. That does not mean someone else plopped you in there. We have participated in or created any determinism we experience.

MarsSaturnDelight,

I've studied long and hard. I've achieved a level of astrological literacy that allows me to do rectification with confidence. Yes, there is always room for human variation and error. I make mistakes often and am happy to correct them.

What you may be missing is that in rectification we are still working with astrological weather conditions. Nothing in rectification need exact conformity to some aphorism, just consistency to principles involved.

Certain types of events can take place in a person's life that relate say to Saturn and the 4th house and some undesirable events, but that does not necessitate that the individual see their entire security and home life as destroyed, that the old devil Saturn is 'working against them', and further create an even more undesirable outcome. It does not necessitate they see these events as 'happening to' them. Rather, they are participating in them in the way of their choosing. I've had clients who experienced such factors without missing a beat and those who went into fear-based meltdown, furthering the negative potentials of the astrological factors.

That astrological energies are synchronous with our lives, and consistent and reliable within themselves, does not mean they themselves are deterministic. There is still incredible leeway as to how different people experience and work with the energies like I mentioned above, and what different (temporal) outcomes they can create with them.

As a rectifier my #1 job is to know the person as they are and intended to be in this lifetime -- in astrological terms (a communicative/linguistic skill). Such an accurate perception of them will reveal their correct birth chart and be consistent with the planetary trends that spring from it synchronously. It does require a certain level of astrological fluency. (That's not commensurate to one's ability to pontificate about astrology)

Synchronicity is serendipity, not determinism. We work with the astrological conditions we have in a cooperative creativity with life, but get the best results when we don't limit the Universe's response with our limited notions of 'how' or 'when' fulfillment should come about.

Leave room to be surprised!

posted July 23, 2016 05:12 PM            

@Kannon,

Thanks for your feedback.

quote:

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It may be able to characterize the conditions, even the storm or sunny periods you may go through, but it does not determine outcomes of the person.

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Of course it doesn't determine outcomes, unless people are using it for that purpose.
But to what extent can it describe upcoming external factors that may redirect our course, or create detours, quite beyond our expectations?

quote:

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Let's make sure we don't confuse conditions with the person in them.

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I don't know, depending on how entrenched they are in their own thought patterns, certain conditions could provoke a mental obsession that overwhelms their focus and prevents them from being true, present, aware.

quote:

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Also, potential occurrences do not necessitate an unhealthy emotive anticipation, a defensive position.

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I totally agree with you on that.

quote:

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However, if Linda believed this about astrology & death, she would have no basis in her daughter's chart for believing she was still alive when she was reported murdered.

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With the hiccups anecdote, Linda was espousing and marking out the extent of astrological "omniscience" that is possible, and also setting herself apart as one whose predictive skills do not match that of other astrologers. So, if she was relying on her own abilities to look into the chart, instead of consulting someone more masterful than herself, it could be more a reflection of wishful thinking, and a mother's need to hope, than a case of astrology put to the test.

quote:

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The test is if we can use astrology constructively to better our lives. Predicting oddities like a boy falling off a bike, but not being able to understand and nourish one's own partnership throws astrology into the bargain bin of unwanted interests.

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Not necessarily. Imagine how much would change if everyone took it as a scientific FACT that the cosmos can be "translated" to such an extent that even small things can be known in advance. It would expand our vision considerably.

And then we might realize that the whole universe is conscious, and revert back to animism, with the knowledge we gain from ventures and successes in this direction. Quite an expanded view.

(Yes I'm thinking of Cosmos & Psyche, if anyone else thought I was copying the idea from there...yes I was. )

quote:

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Similarly, predicting hiccups is irrelevant, because it has no real value, except perhaps to pad the ego of the predictor.

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You really think it has no value?

I think it could turn people's worldviews inside out.

Heck, I even freaked my brother out by correctly "predicting" that his friend's Virgo moon boyfriend would probably unload the dishwasher for her. Mind blowing stuff. And since astrology can be empowering overall, the mode of initiation doesn't exactly matter...whether we open their eyes with personality descriptions or predictions about hiccups...the bottom line is the same. In fact, predicting tangible, undeniable events like hiccups could have a more persuasive effect than outlining personality traits.

Not that I'm even arguing that it's possible to predict hiccups. But I don't see the reason in saying it's impossible, if one doesn't know that for sure either.

posted July 24, 2016 10:13 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by yungang_grotto:
There was a post on this astrology forum about predictive astrology and folks were weighing in on it. Thought to share my thoughts with you all too:

Ok thing.number one:

Time isn't linear.

Astrology is the ability to compare disparate moments in time to one another.

It is the ability to peer into time and space itself, if you have a certain combination of skill and dedication and intuition and clarity. You can only predict, only analyze, insofar as your own capacities for perception have been opened. ("when the doors of perception are cleansed")

Thing 2:

NOTHING is impossible. We are multi dimensional beings with an infinite capacity for understanding. The akashic records themselves may very well be intimately linked to astrology, like an enormous filing cabinet in which we find actual literal events taking place and can witness them from every possible angle of consciousness.

This is omnipresence. Obviously we here are just derivatives, holographic bits of THAT which is...

And we participate with one another compassionately to the best of our ability with what we have at any given moment... as astrologers, ideally... we focus in on the emotional, spiritual and physical crux of a situation in order to provide solace and inspiration to the querant...

Inspiration is not usually something that can be GIVEN But in the case of astrology a really good channel will be able to put that person in touch with their own innate knowing, which is really what the birth chart is... their own map. Their personal and unique and sacred lens on the ongoing cosmic epiphany of which we are all a part.

It is an honour and a joy to share with anybody in these sacred conversations which occur between native and their stars... to be the conduit which facilitates the communion with the self... it is different for everybody and everybody has unique things to learn.

The astrologer is not outside the workings of fate though, any more than the doctor, the chemist, the philosopher, who have all done harm in their ways too... Whether you are a catalyst or a fatalist or whatever you believe, the concept that something is destined to happen is at the core of the debate here, and it is unlikely to be solved very easily among us.

What would the point be of consulting an astrologer if everything were already laid out for you and there was no choice? It becomes a cause and effect question... did the astrologer kill him by predicting his death?

Well. Realistically I do truly believe in non linearity as a predominant reason that individuals CAN predict the future, with various extraordinary means... they're not right all the time and they acknowledge often that they are seeing the most likely result of the present reality... which changes with every tiniest fluctuation of anything...

But if somebody has been walking towards the edge of a cliff and you have a map in your hand, mightn't you want to tell them that they're about to go over, if you could help redirect them?

I see astrology as a non linear map of existence which actually provides infinite choice within the context of that which is, that which has already been, and that which will be. Astrology can be a powerful tool for examining minutae and then situating ourselves within the flow of time with clarity and awareness of the deep inner workings of the energetic currents at play. We branch out from this knowledge and fruit along with it. Astrology can be like breathing.. like going for a walk with a very beautifully detailed map which shows us the underground burrows and even the weather... The eagles... it is a living picture of life on earth, painted in the stars, communing with the turning, with the moon... it is beautiful!

Some very far out people... myself included... believe that we can energetically influence the past as well as the future and present. We can heal and protect retroactively. When we make a prayer it can be for everyone through endless time.

---

I love this. I'm agnostic about how the universe works and especially about astrology!!! (Not religiously agnostic, I do believe in deities and that this universe is animated by divine energy.)

It's interesting you say, what would be the point of astrology if everything were laid out for us and 100% fated? The thing is, some things ARE--we know with 100% certainty that in this lifetime, our physical body will die. We may be able to switch up the when and how slightly through actions, vibe or energy, but only slightly.

A problem I have with astrology is that--even if we use it holistically and work with it creatively as a system of potential energies and archetypes, it still hinges on stereotypes and categorizations. If we go too far in denying that we're being deterministic and predictive when we use it, we aren't even really doing anything. I have this problem also with most practices of psychology and psychiatry, anything that uses a typology. Even though my own sympathies and practices are so much more in line with holistic, dynamic, creative non-deterministic astrology that says "we're working with potential energies", I'm fascinated by the really fatalistic, deterministic kinds of astrology that are like "When the headless snake is malefic in your house of slavery this year, your brother's children will DIE and you will have ulcers and styes and poor financial luck." Part of me WANTS astrology to be that, to be a rigidly predictive system.