posted February 02, 2019 02:35 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
Let me be clear I can feel bad and feel empathy for a pedaphile bc they probably were abused themselves or are victim's of their own biology malfunctioning but I completely understand if a father kills a guy who raped his 8 year old child, its natural consequences. People will defend and protect their loved ones, its instinct.

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That's what I was trying to say. I completely understand why the father did what he did, but do I think the man deserved to be beat to death? No, not at all. That's the difference. My main concern was the one less sexual predator off the streets line. While true, yes he won't be hurting anyone else, you still sole his ability to heal his own pains and wounds.

posted February 02, 2019 02:39 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Dons2angelss:

Do I think the father was sadistic? No, I understand he was acting in a rage. Do I think the abuser deserved to be beat to death? No, he was still a human being too, no faux empathy there. You're defending the father's actions by saying the man deserved to be beat to death. That's the difference I'm pointing out. You have a lack of empathy for the man he beat to death. "one less predator off the streets" that's all the information you needed to know about the man to justify his death and the way he died. I'm sure the father wasn't charged because he was probably deemed temporarily insane by rage, totally understandable. you agreed with him not being charged because the pedophile "deserved" it.
And hurting an innocent child is hurting an innocent child. So I'm not sure why you think someone intentionally trying kill a baby is not as bad as molesting a baby.

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Erms, I said they're not the same thing.

And faux empathy means wanting to appear empathetic at all costs to gain moral superiority, thinking you're thinking empathic. Like a medal.

So then the question becomes, is death, or being okay with death, always indicative of someone who doesn't feel empathy for the person who dies, regardless of what they did.

posted February 02, 2019 02:41 PM            

quote:

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you still sole his ability to heal his own pains and wounds

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No. No one did but him. That's removing responsibility from the perpetrator. Our actions have consequences.

posted February 02, 2019 03:00 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lalafortunaea:
No. No one did but him. That's removing responsibility from the perpetrator. Our actions have consequences.

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posted February 02, 2019 03:09 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lalafortunaea:
Erms, I said they're not the same thing.

And faux empathy means wanting to appear empathetic at all costs to gain moral superiority, thinking you're thinking empathic. Like a medal.

So then the question becomes, is death, or being okay with death, always indicative of someone who doesn't feel empathy for the person who dies, regardless of what they did.

That's not at all the question here. Being ok with death has nothing to do with being ok with a man being beat to death and being "one less sexual predator off the streets". I think you're making my point for me. You're still trying to justify murder by stripping the pedophile of his humanity... That line says way more about your argument than using the father's rage as justification.

And is not killing the end all be all of an empathic person?

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posted February 02, 2019 03:24 PM            

Listen, I get you're trying to play devil's advocate here, but I'm under the impression you don't really understand.

Telling a parent who killed someone who molested or raped a loved one, especially a child, and who is "okay" (or as okay as one could be with such an act, as in living with it and being responsible about it) with it, that they do not have empathy is grossly wrong in so many ways, and extremely naive to think that is the case. That's very black and white.

Even if a parent who did not do the act themselves heard that a person who molested their child was killed or died, and was okay with it, it does not make them wrong or somehow less empathic. It's not just "being okay with murder." The thing is, I'm not really the one over simplifying here. You're the one saying that I'm simplifying by stripping them of their humanity.

But the fact that you're arguing for the sake of pedophilia all for the appearance of seeming empathic, while completely not understanding individuals who would be okay with this, is a tad strange. The truth is, a lot of people would be okay with a child molestor or child rapist dying - unless they identify with the sexual predator, or are simply conflicted. What you're describing isn't empathy, it's pity and identification.
Similar to the people who defend the misguided actions of rapists, under the guise of real empathy.

posted February 02, 2019 03:25 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
I don't think she is feeling faux empathy for the perpetrator, the perpetrator is this way bc something went wrong in the course of his development. Now that doesn't excuse what he has done and yes there are consequences whether is jail time or you ******* someone off bad enough they kill you. The concern with violent crimes is safety, how can you ensure they won't hurt someone again, death would ensure this hence an argument for capital punishment or beating someone to death, jail time would ensure that while they are in jail but once they come out you cannot. Then comes in the question of whether someone like that can heal? Can a guy who rapes 8 year old kids truly change and heal? And further did he give up his right to change and heal when he completely violated the life of a child? This is were you two feel differently. She thinks such people can heal, you think they cannot or that it is irrelevant bc they gave up that privilege when they violated someone else.

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posted February 02, 2019 03:26 PM            

Telling a parent who killed someone who molested or raped a loved one, especially a child, and who is "okay" (or as okay as one could be with such an act, as in living with it and being responsible about it) with it, that they do not have empathy is grossly wrong in so many ways, and extremely naive to think that is the case. That's very black and white.

Even if a parent who did not do the act themselves heard that a person who molested their child was killed or died, and was okay with it, it does not make them wrong or somehow less empathic. It's not just "being okay with murder." The thing is, I'm not really the one over simplifying here. You're the one saying that I'm simplifying by stripping them of their humanity.

But the fact that you're arguing for the sake of pedophilia all for the appearance of seeming empathic, while completely not understanding individuals who would be okay with this, is a tad strange. The truth is, a lot of people would be okay with a child molestor or child rapist dying - unless they identify with the sexual predator, or are simply conflicted. What you're describing isn't empathy, it's pity and identification.
Similar to the people who defend the misguided actions of rapists, under the guise of real empathy.

posted February 02, 2019 03:28 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Lalafortunaea:
^
I think we already established no one stripping them of their humanity.

Listen, I get you're trying to play devil's advocate here, but I'm under the impression you don't really understand.

Telling a parent who killed someone who molested or raped a loved one, especially a child, and who is "okay" (or as okay as one could be with such an act, as in living with it and being responsible about it) with it, that they do not have empathy is grossly wrong in so many ways, and extremely naive to think that is the case. That's very black and white.

Even if a parent who did not do the act themselves heard that a person who molested their child was killed or died, and was okay with it, it does not make them wrong or somehow less empathic. It's not just "being okay with murder." The thing is, I'm not really the one over simplifying here. You're the one saying that I'm simplifying by stripping them of their humanity.

But the fact that you're arguing for the sake of pedophilia all for the appearance of seeming empathic, while completely not understanding individuals who would be okay with this, is a tad strange. The truth is, a lot of people would be okay with a child molestor or child rapist dying - unless they identify with the sexual predator, or are simply conflicted. What you're describing isn't empathy, it's pity and identification.
Similar to the people who defend the misguided actions of rapists, under the guise of real empathy.

Anyhow, I'm not really interested in replying anymore, as I'm afraid you'll likely project or misunderstand. So, that's that ~

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posted February 02, 2019 03:55 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
It's an interesting discussion for sure we have going here

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posted February 02, 2019 04:10 PM            

His ego was afflicted (Sun) and his moon was detached and comfortable with violence (moon/lilith, moon/mars) yet he was charming and personable, seductive (Venus conjunct Jupiter near IC, Venus conjunct Mercury in Scorpio).

Actually his unaspected sun ruled his chart! And afflicted Jupiter in Scorpio ruled his Sun which squared saturn conjunct pluto in the 12th. I am seeing a huge ego complex, talk about someone who didn't shine naturally perhaps, who probably didn't get much attention or validation growing up, maybe felt invisible and awkward..

I mean his sun ruled his chart but he was filled with darkness. His chart ruler was unaspected and the ruler of his chart ruler was in Scorpio afflicted but also conjuncted venus which conjuncted his mercury making him charming.

Is like his chart set him up so his sun couldnt express light..

Think about it his chart ruler is the sun but sun is unaspected so Jupiter in Scorpio is his real chart ruler bc his sun is expressing itself through Jupiter in Scorpio which squares saturn conjunct pluto in the 12th.

posted February 02, 2019 04:45 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Dons2angelss:
Very true, being emotional doesn't necessarily mean they're compassionate with others. I think with the fire dominant it tends to make them really eager about being overly empathetic. For some reason I attract fire dominant, water void men. I've had 3 serious relationships and when I looked up their charts it shocked me that they were all water void or only had one planet in a water sign. I've read that people who have an elemental void subconsciously seek out others heavy in that element to "fill" that void.

I do know a woman who is a self proclaimed sociopath. Knowing her personally, I agree, I keep my distance from her now. She's fire dominant with a capricorn moon squaring pluto. Leo sun on her ascendant with mercury ecaxtly conjunct venus in the 1st. She worked as a groomer with dogs and she just took pleasure in having complete control over them and forcing them to do what she wanted. If they didn't cooperate, she'd get really hateful and throw them in a cage or hit them. She was also always the victim in every relationship. Personally, I think she chose abusive men just to play the victim card again to get sympathy from people. Completely narcissistic, no empathy for anyone. Long list of things she's done to manipulate people.... And she takes pride in it!
Interesting note, sado conjuncts her mercury/venus in the 1st.

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funny, my fiancee has heavy water and an earth void, so we both did that to an extent

i wouldn't call myself overly empathetic, i'd just say that i can be; i'm equally capable of suspending my own feelings but there's no reason to in most cases when someone else is involved only when it's myself

i don't care for control over anyone other than myself, and even then that's not worthwhile all of the time

in the case of the narcissist you mentioned i'd argue it's likely the cap moon squaring pluto with the addition of the leo that does it

@hypatia238

here's my chart, don't know how you want to count venus

also have a nice poorly aspected jupiter (added the aspects to chiron to show just how poorly)

the pedo **** :

i see nothing wrong with what the father did, it's completely understandable (in the case of the grandmother mentioned the familial ties and likely abuse that was endured elsewhere by her behavior is probably why retaliation didn't happen on a severe level, also people can handle physical violence particularly when they've been abused rather than sexual violence) because he acted out of immediate emotion it isn't sadism either

just like self defense isn't sadistic, it isn't sadistic to retaliate to the violation of loved one with violence; that comes from a completely different place

that being said i don't think it's "right" either, not a black and white issue

if the father didn't react that way immediately i wouldn't say the pedo in question should be put to death, because yeah people with problems should preferably be given help and what someone does at one point or another isn't all of who they are

nothing wrong with having mercy, but it isn't necessarily reasonable to expect it to always be given either

do horrible **** and it might **** you thats life

edit: btw i see it similar to the way i see acts of war, you can take pows but you can also kill your enemy

neither is wrong or right because they're circumstances that are outside of normal reality

morality is subject to circumstance and it's not black and white in nearly all cases (funny enough where it is black and white is something like molesting children which is imo an unforgivable crime)

posted February 02, 2019 06:53 PM            

Also your Jupiter is not afflicted. Chiron doesn't make something afflicted. A planet is afflicted if is aspected by saturn or mars, maybe bc mars can make that planet act more rashly and impulsively like makes the planet hotter while Saturn cools if off and restricts/blocks. I feel hard aspects involving mars or saturn to a planet means that planet is afflicted but that is it.

I would think chiron in hard aspect to Jupiter like we both have would feel the opportunity to rehabilitate is an important part of justice although this is a case by case thing. My Mars ruling the IC in the 8th conjunct venus and your moon in aries opposite Venus would be protective of loved ones and understanding of a father wanting to kill someone who raped their child, its initiating force after someone initiated force on you or your family and it deters others from committing stuff like that, seeing that a natural consequence can be death to such extreme violation. My partner with mars in scorpio and moon in cancer feels this way too.

posted February 02, 2019 07:11 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
Hey Dumuzi, yes I feel the same about your analysis regarding this scenerio pretty much.

Also your Jupiter is not afflicted. Chiron doesn't make something afflicted. A planet is afflicted if is aspected by saturn or mars, maybe bc mars can make that planet act more rashly and impulsively like makes the planet hotter while Saturn cools if off and restricts/blocks. I feel hard aspects involving mars or saturn to a planet means that planet is afflicted but that is it.

I would think chiron in hard aspect to Jupiter like we both have would feel the opportunity to rehabilitate is an important part of justice although this is a case by case thing. My Mars ruling the IC in the 8th conjunct venus and your moon in aries opposite Venus would be protective of loved ones and understanding of a father wanting to kill someone who raped their child, its initiating force after someone initiated force on you or your family and it deters others from committing stuff like that, seeing that a natural consequence can be death to such extreme violation. My partner with mars in scorpio and moon in cancer feels this way too.

Yes I feel your venus is in the 12th and conjuncts your AC so both interpretations apply.

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i thought i said "poorly aspected" not afflicted, i'm too lazy to look but i could've sworn that was the case

if not my bad

yeah to me there's nothing wrong with killing someone in a situation like that

they rape someone you love then it's fair game, all the other **** is just red tape, and i personally wouldn't hesitate

i don't see that as the equivalent of saying all pedos should die, but i wouldn't exactly lose any sleep over it if they did

i believe in mercy being an important part of the justice system, but broken down on an individual level there isn't always mercy to give and it's completely understandable and arguably natural to kill in that situation

i think rehabilitation is the ideal, but **** 's not always ideal and like i said that's based on systems not individual levels

like you said, case by case, and i can live with not being the epitome of empathy and mercy in some situations

posted February 02, 2019 07:44 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Dumuzi:
funny, my fiancee has heavy water and an earth void, so we both did that to an extent

i wouldn't call myself overly empathetic, i'd just say that i can be; i'm equally capable of suspending my own feelings but there's no reason to in most cases when someone else is involved only when it's myself

i don't care for control over anyone other than myself, and even then that's not worthwhile all of the time

in the case of the narcissist you mentioned i'd argue it's likely the cap moon squaring pluto with the addition of the leo that does it

@hypatia238

here's my chart, don't know how you want to count venus

also have a nice poorly aspected jupiter (added the aspects to chiron to show just how poorly)

the pedo **** :

i see nothing wrong with what the father did, it's completely understandable (in the case of the grandmother mentioned the familial ties and likely abuse that was endured elsewhere by her behavior is probably why retaliation didn't happen on a severe level, also people can handle physical violence particularly when they've been abused rather than sexual violence) because he acted out of immediate emotion it isn't sadism either

just like self defense isn't sadistic, it isn't sadistic to retaliate to the violation of loved one with violence; that comes from a completely different place

that being said i don't think it's "right" either, not a black and white issue

if the father didn't react that way immediately i wouldn't say the pedo in question should be put to death, because yeah people with problems should preferably be given help and what someone does at one point or another isn't all of who they are

nothing wrong with having mercy, but it isn't necessarily reasonable to expect it to always be given either

do horrible **** and it might **** you thats life

edit: btw i see it similar to the way i see acts of war, you can take pows but you can also kill your enemy

neither is wrong or right because they're circumstances that are outside of normal reality

morality is subject to circumstance and it's not black and white in nearly all cases (funny enough where it is black and white is something like molesting children which is imo an unforgivable crime)

also i'm curious how anyone who would defend the pedophile feels about people who say that liking children is just their sexuality? because that's never going to change in a person, you can't clockwork orange it out of them or some ****

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Your chart ruler is conjunct the ascendant. That's a wonderful aspect! Especially being venus, just inside the 12th house in the realm of Neptune would give you the ability to empathize easier. Your sun is also in the 11th, the woman I was talking about had hers on the ascendant. She would constantly make things about her, or she just had to be #1. I don't see that deep egotistical need in your chart.

posted February 02, 2019 08:08 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Dons2angelss:

Your chart ruler is conjunct the ascendant. That's a wonderful aspect! Especially being venus, just inside the 12th house in the realm of Neptune would give you the ability to empathize easier. Your sun is also in the 11th, the woman I was talking about had hers on the ascendant. She would constantly make things about her, or she just had to be #1. I don't see that deep egotistical need in your chart.

About the conversation earlier, in no way was I defending pedophilia or relate to it either for that matter, pretty sure that was thrown out there somewhere in the comments. I feel like I'm just repeating myself at this point though so I'm not even going to try again.

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i figured her first house sun was part of it along with that cap moon- pluto square

i didn't think you were defending pedophilia, i was just wondering if you felt it was wrong in spite of the strong evidence that the desire doesn't go away and the high likelihood of repeat offenses

there was a british documentary about this place out in the middle of nowhere that was a rehab for pedos that was interesting

posted February 02, 2019 09:29 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
I did not think Dons2 that you were defending pedofilia either at all, I understand your point and respect it, I just also understand lala's point. Like Dumuzi points out evidence suggests the strong desire does not go away and there is high likelihood of repeat offenses. If they had the ability to control their impulses they would not sexually abuse a kid in the first place. I hope one day we are advanced enough with nanotechnology that we can safely go into people's brain and alter the structure and cure things like pedofilia and schizophrenia ect.

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posted February 02, 2019 10:51 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Dumuzi:
i can't think of things much more terrifying than that sort of technology existing, just because something like that could be used well doesn't mean it's likely to be

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posted February 02, 2019 10:52 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Dumuzi:
i can't think of things much more terrifying than that sort of technology existing, just because something like that could be used well doesn't mean it's likely to be

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posted February 02, 2019 11:25 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
I did not think Dons2 that you were defending pedofilia either at all, I understand your point and respect it, I just also understand lala's point. Like Dumuzi points out evidence suggests the strong desire does not go away and there is high likelihood of repeat offenses. If they had the ability to control their impulses they would not sexually abuse a kid in the first place. I hope one day we are advanced enough with nanotechnology that we can safely go into people's brain and alter the structure and cure things like pedofilia and schizophrenia ect.

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posted February 03, 2019 12:56 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Dons2angelss:
I'm not so sure it's a brain problem though. Schizophrenia yes, we've seen scans of schizophrenic brains and it's plainly visible. Pedophilia, I don't think there are any markers to show on a scan. What really gets me is, they have to know before they act upon those urges, obviously. But there's nothing out there where someone can safely go BEFORE they act to get help. We have giant billboards and websites everywhere for people wanting to kill their self and obviously for good reasons, we're trying to help them before it's too late. I'm not comparing suicide to pedophilia, just using it as a reference. As prevalent as sexual abuse is, we put all of the responsibility on the victim to speak up to stop the abuse. No one is going to stand up and say "I know I have this problem" because they know there are people out there who'd want to see them dead for even thinking it but it is their responsibility to stop it before they do something they can't take back. So where would a man go to seek help for having those thoughts? No where that he knows is a "safe" place. Therapy maybe but the ones in my area are horribly understaffed and not equipped to even handle something like that. These people aren't going to be in jail forever as well, that's why we have a sex offender registry. I think it would be much more conducive for society as a whole to offer help them before they act upon whatever it is they're thinking than to wait for a victim to speak out, which we all know usually doesn't happen until much later. Even if it helps just a small portion of the people who would come forward, that's way more children that don't have to suffer and we'd be learning a lot more about what leads a person to act on those thoughts to begin with and how to steer them away from it to lead a normal life, which would help countless others in the same situation. I'm obviously not saying that society should accept them being pedophiles, hell no, I'm saying society needs to realize this is a huge problem and what we've been doing so far is not working. There needs to be major changes to how we're dealing with this issue. I'm an empath, damn strong one and I know that monster will never go away inside of them, but they do need to learn how to be the one in control, not the monster that wants to hurt an innocent child. If you had any idea just how many monsters are walking around, you'd understand what I mean. I can feel them, but I can also feel the man behind the monster too, that's who we need to reach before they lose that battle with the monster.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cbiLYG52_U

this is the doc i mentioned, you might find it interesting

i understand what you're saying about them needing help prior to doing anything, and yes it being taboo affects them seeking help

however it's really a gray area because it's impossible for it to be anything other than stigmatized because of the damage acting on it causes

feeling bad for people, feeling their pain, seeing the person past the monster etc is all well and good but i really believe there's a point where it's wasted

and maybe it isn't wasted before it's acted on, but once it has been there's irreversible damage done to the victim and a high likelihood of them continuing to harm

and what about the ones who are saying it's a sexuality?

the ones who compare it to being gay or bi for example, you really think they can change that? people try to change being gay and bi when it's not accepted and they feel shame for it, they try to deny that side of themselves and repress it and it doesn't work

there's been conversion camps, and all kinds of therapy etc designed to train people to fit molds sexually, even just societal pressure where it's been stigmatized and people still are who they are and like what they like at the end of the day

so what if it is a sexuality like being gay or bi or hetero? that means it can't just be "fixed" and unlike everything else i listed where it's just sex that can be consensual pedophilia always has a victim

most people can't fully repress their sexuality, not even people who take vows of chastity

so where do you draw the line?

when you can recognize someone as a monster and see the person underneath still no matter how much empathy you have there has to be a point where you separate those sympathetic feelings and look at the cold reality of it

they're people you feel comfortable calling "monsters" (which is ironically dehumanizing btw) even being as empathetic as you are

is it truly wrong for someone to hunt a monster down once they've attacked? especially if it's hit close to home

the issue is even if these people came forward there's no guarantee it can be fixed so where are you drawing the line?

like i said past a certain point empathy is a weakness, and feelings aren't always what decisions should be made with particularly ones that can put others at risk over sentiment

posted February 03, 2019 05:29 AM            

I agree with Dons, there's a man/woman hidden behind the monsters.

From what I've seen and experienced upclose, I think it's energy gone wrong somewhere, perhaps thru limitations set by the circumstances, and energy does need a way out, this or that way it finds a way out any way, anyhow.