posted May 09, 2019 05:01 PM            

Have you noticed a correlation between toxic relationships or domestic violence/intimate partner violence and Plutonic/8th house relationships???

"People who are terrorized, whether as adult victims of torture, or domestic violence or child victims of family abuse, experience their abuser as being in total control of life and death. The perpetrator may variously use behavior control, thought control, emotional control, economic control or information control – or all these forms of control. The perpetrator is the source of the pain and terror, but he is also the source of relief from that pain. He is the source of threat but he is also the source of hope.

Unfortunately, when the danger is not external to the social group, but instead comes from within the immediate family circle, the body reacts in exactly the same way. This produces the apparently paradoxical situation in which the abuser is the very person that the battered child or spouse turns to for safety. The primary caretakers have total control over children’s lives and if abusive they become the source not just of the abuse, but also of the relief from this abuse. The children end up unable to imagine survival without their abusers, since it was their abusers who repeatedly granted them their life by not killing them. The relief they feel for this is expressed as gratitude towards the perpetrator (James, 1994). Children thus affected may never develop the capacity to attach normally and receive love, nurturance, and protection, respect for themselves or for others, self-mastery, or autonomy. They internalize the image of their own helplessness and the role of the perpetrator and go on as adolescents and as adults, reenacting one or both of those roles.

posted May 09, 2019 08:01 PM            

I've read that aspect is a violent one. Not wrong there.

posted May 09, 2019 08:47 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by TaurusVenusGirl:
My mother's pluto conjunct my mars in synastry. She also has pluto conjunct mars natally. She beat the **** out of me daily. She was so violent.

I've read that aspect is a violent one. Not wrong there.

I'm a plutoic person myself. But I couldn't hurt someone physically myself or ever put up with that abuse in a relationship.

---

i have a lot of ****** pluto going on with my immediate family too

my sun is loosely conjunct both my parents' plutos (they have it in the same spot), my older brother's pluto is conjunct my ascendant exact (so it's also square my mars,conjunct my venus, opposite my moon etc), younger brother's pluto squares my mercury

edit: needless to say my childhood sucked lol

posted May 09, 2019 11:21 PM            

There has to be control over the self, to a degree. To surrender the control as well. You can't have one without the other.

I'm a Scorpio Sun/Venus/Pluto/Mercury stellium (Lilith in there too) and all squaring my Jupiter in Leo -- The theme of self control has been HUGE in my life. But so has surrendering the control to what's happened in my life.

I will say there are usually some instances of abuse in SOME case, whether subtle or manipulative or outright. But whether those things happen, especially when we are grown and dealing with the repercussions of that, we have to relinquish the urge to control our past. With Pluto there is this extreme desire to control what we couldn't growing up- whether it was abuse or just situations we felt we couldn't do anything about. But part of surrendering to Pluto is that, after the fact, we have to just accept that it happened and learn to deal with it in a healthy manner (hopefully). It can be extremely hard to let go of the want for control in those areas, wherein we often seek out the same type of situations or relationships to try again, to put ourselves in the same scenario to try and do better- but often that just causes the cycle of abuse. It hurts us.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but my experience here (all that Scorpio/Pluto is in my 8th house, mind you) has lead me to understand that I have to just accept and let go of the fact these horrible things have happened. All I can do is control the IMMEDIATE NOW. That's all. I can't control my future, I cannot control other people, just myself and what I do right here and now.

That is what Pluto is all about.

posted May 09, 2019 11:50 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChildofVenus:
There is not ALWAYS physical abuse with Plutonic relationships.

---

posted May 09, 2019 11:58 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChildofVenus:
There is not ALWAYS physical abuse with Plutonic relationships.

---

posted May 09, 2019 11:58 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dumuzi:
i have a lot of ****** pluto going on with my immediate family too

my sun is loosely conjunct both my parents' plutos (they have it in the same spot), my older brother's pluto is conjunct my ascendant exact (so it's also square my mars,conjunct my venus, opposite my moon etc), younger brother's pluto squares my mercury

edit: needless to say my childhood sucked lol

---

Damn Dumuzi, that sounds very intense.

posted May 10, 2019 12:07 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by anonymidarkness:
^ a strong Mars might help in the person with lesser Pluto influence in the natal to stand up to the person with the stronger influence from what I've seen.

---

posted May 10, 2019 12:10 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by TaurusVenusGirl:
My mother's pluto conjunct my mars in synastry. She also has pluto conjunct mars natally. She beat the **** out of me daily. She was so violent.

I've read that aspect is a violent one. Not wrong there.

---

posted May 10, 2019 01:26 AM            

Mom is Pluto conjunct North node. Pluto square Sun.

Dad is Pluto conjunct Mars. Pluto parallel Sun.Pluto conj Venus.

Sister is Pluto opp Sun, Pluto opp Mercury.

Little Sis is Pluto conj Sun,Pluto conj Mercury,Pluto conj Jupiter,Pluto square Mars. Oh yes, she is also Sun in Scorpio with Venus also in Scorpio but not in aspect to Pluto. She is perhaps the most "Plutonic" of us all.

I have the sextile natally with Sun. And that's all folks

My Dad was the corporal punishment type. I think Pluto/Mars or Pluto/Saturn exposes one to physical violence or has one become the perpetrator of it.

I have Pluto in 7th with Mars in 6th conjunct the Dsc. What I see as probable is that violence(if ever) is likely to come as a result of associating with others(7th).

I am quite a laid back person(Sun-Neprune conj) so people tend to think I am "soft" or a "walk over". I do attract people who boarder on bullying tactics or are more aggressive etc.

Like my Aqua friend used to use all sorts of subtle bullying tactics to have me do what he wants. I hated that and we broke off our friendship for 2 years until he apologized and admitted the counter behaviour.

If a native has Mars/Pluto interacting with the 7th(especially in Aries or Scorpio) their probability of attracting an aggressive mate are high. The mate doesn't start off agressive but gains momentum as the relationship progresses.

The same is true of Mars/Venus (conjunction esp in Aries, Scorpio) or Venus/Pluto(conjunction esp in Scorp)

posted May 10, 2019 04:38 AM            

For context, my chart is a dominant mix of Cap and Scorpio, including a Mars/Saturn conjunction conjunct the MC in Scorpio.

I come from an uncivilised background where it was expected to be aggressive and be always ready to become physical. Being ‘violent was the morm’, sorry to say.

Fortunately myself and a few friends started boxing and this was the start of my amateur boxing career all the way into my early 20’s until I was badly injured. My friends dropped out and I stayed and became very good. This was my Mars/Saturn talking. Learning a physical sport really channelled my energies and turned them from being ‘cruel and destructive for no reason’ to various obvious positives which essentially change my life.

Up until my Saturn return, I really had problems with Pluto. I still hadn’t integrated my more wild and destructive tendencies into the professional workplace. If I am totally honest, I literally bulldozed my way up my career and hurt quite a few people. I was aggressive, a bully, obnoxious cold and obsessive. It seems like a world away now.

In a relationship, particularly when I was younger I was very plutonic, this was facilitated Through synastry too. Although, I was always internal with it. I would never let my lover know the torment I was going through. It was crazy. I hated those days.

All my relationships have been plutonic except for the relationship I have with my wife.

I have been manipulative, cold, controlling (can’t not mention sexual dominance as well, which is my super power 😉, I used to use this to gain control) I feel ashamed writing this but I am being honest. I am gifted sexually and physically, and I have totally exploited this 😔, to make myself feel better at the expense of someone else...so sad.

I have never been physical. But I must stress, I have been physically assaulted by a couple of past lovers. Probably because I deserved it.

But what I am saying is; Pluto has many extremes and unfortunately I have expressed most of the negatives mentioned here, including the violence (not in relationships).

But, because of the positive Pluto traits I have successfully expressed.; I have built and amazing life for my family, gave them physical, emotional and financial security. Watching them grow and thrive makes it all worth it. Additionally, through my vocation, I have developed products that not only help people heal faster, but has saved lives, this is the truth. I am very proud of what I have put back into the world, and so are the people around me.

Pluto is give and take; bittersweet; poison chalice...... whatever you want to coin it.

It just couldn’t be any other way with such an extreme influence.

posted May 10, 2019 09:10 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Soulsjourney:
I've always wondered about this. Some of the most manipulative (and well hidden) people have some sort of pluto (and cancer) connection in their chart.

Often I wouldn't even know the manipulative/gaslighting was happening.

---

gaslighting is annoying, but if you avoid taking the bait where it escalates into you doing what they want you to do (act irrationally) you can keep pushing the issue and put them in their place

it's all about calmly circling back to your initial point and not letting up on pressure while saying things that make them uncomfortable "you're a smart person, i know you know that has nothing to do with (insert actual issue here) so why are you bringing it up?" etc and so on

posted May 10, 2019 09:15 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by hypatia238:
Damn Dumuzi, that sounds very intense.

---

it was yeah, i've noticed i have strong pluto synastry with a lot of people who have been in my life

with my immediate family saturn was another one that was fun for me; my mother's saturn is on my mars, my father's and younger brother's saturns are on my ic (almost exact or exact i can't remember) i only noticed how **** that synastry was recently

quote:

---

Originally posted by kani:
My Pluto is opposite my father's sun and mercury and his Pluto is conjunct my North Node. He used me as a punching bag when I was a kid. My mum's Venus is tightly square my Pluto and her Pluto is square my Chiron. she wasn't as violent as my dad but more psychologically and emotionally manipulative

---

it's interesting that you have strong pluto contacts with your immediate family too given our conversation in your thread and the similarities in our childhoods

do you have ****** up saturn **** with them too? i do in my case, i never thought to really look at chiron in the synastry with them

posted May 10, 2019 09:36 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by implosions:
It can definitely go either way. Pluto is all about extremes; mostly because it is the extreme equivalent of control, power dynamics, etc.

There has to be control over the self, to a degree. To surrender the control as well. You can't have one without the other.

I'm a Scorpio Sun/Venus/Pluto/Mercury stellium (Lilith in there too) and all squaring my Jupiter in Leo -- The theme of self control has been HUGE in my life. But so has surrendering the control to what's happened in my life.

I will say there are usually some instances of abuse in SOME case, whether subtle or manipulative or outright. But whether those things happen, especially when we are grown and dealing with the repercussions of that, we have to relinquish the urge to control our past. With Pluto there is this extreme desire to control what we couldn't growing up- whether it was abuse or just situations we felt we couldn't do anything about. But part of surrendering to Pluto is that, after the fact, we have to just accept that it happened and learn to deal with it in a healthy manner (hopefully). It can be extremely hard to let go of the want for control in those areas, wherein we often seek out the same type of situations or relationships to try again, to put ourselves in the same scenario to try and do better- but often that just causes the cycle of abuse. It hurts us.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but my experience here (all that Scorpio/Pluto is in my 8th house, mind you) has lead me to understand that I have to just accept and let go of the fact these horrible things have happened. All I can do is control the IMMEDIATE NOW. That's all. I can't control my future, I cannot control other people, just myself and what I do right here and now.

That is what Pluto is all about.

The self control aspect is also important; you can't just let your instincts and emotions run amok; with Pluto there IS an extreme force of energy. It's transformative; and destructive when repressed and ignored. So the aspect of self control needs to be understood and brought to awareness. I've seen a number of Pluto/Sun people who are ignorant to this, and have NO self control over themselves and their actions, always blaming circumstance and the fact that they have been hurt in the past- that's why these two themes tie together.

---

Are you October / November 1990?

I was born on October 30, part of what you say I agree and jupiter leo squares my stellium in scorpio, which exaggerates the features more.

posted May 10, 2019 10:15 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by TaurusVenusGirl:
My mother's pluto conjunct my mars in synastry. She also has pluto conjunct mars natally. She beat the **** out of me daily. She was so violent.

I've read that aspect is a violent one. Not wrong there.

I'm a plutoic person myself. But I couldn't hurt someone physically myself or ever put up with that abuse in a relationship.

---

I know someone who has Mars/Pluto exact in their natal chart and their Pluto trines my Mars and they have never been physically abusive towards me.

posted May 10, 2019 01:13 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChildofVenus:
I know someone who has Mars/Pluto exact in their natal chart and their Pluto trines my Mars and they have never been physically abusive towards me.

---

Okay are you involved with them in a long term romantic relationship that involves living together? or are you just friends? bc I am talking about VERY involved and intimate relationships like families that live together or couples who live together or at least are committed and see each other a lot and have been dating for a while. That is when you feel comfortable enough to show your shadow side to someone.

posted May 10, 2019 01:48 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by ChildofVenus:
I know someone who has Mars/Pluto exact in their natal chart and their Pluto trines my Mars and they have never been physically abusive towards me.

---

it's not always physical abuse, but there's always a level of trauma bonding and dumping **** on each other

curious though is it the guy you argue with a lot that you're close to?

being real my fiancee is plutonic by nature (scorpio venus conjunct pluto, pluto trine her mars-jupiter conjunction in pisces, and her mercury is scorpio) and our synastry has pluto in it too so does our composite

my pluto is conjunct her venus/pluto and that same conjunction is sextile my mars/neptune and we've had a lot of extreme ups and downs without physical **** but lots of self destructive **** that we've engaged in together and so on

we also have pluto conjunct venus in our composite (we also have venus conjunct sun but sun and pluto are too far away from each other for an aspect)

i think in our case it's helped us both over the longterm get through things and we've come away from a lot of things for the better, but it's not the easiest **** in the world to deal with and requires a lot on both our parts to work through **** because we both had bad childhoods and then went through a lot together as well

it's not necessarily an abuse thing, but you'll see each other's worst and best with pluto and it's all going to be raw and open

i'm thinking maybe the easy aspect and her having it natal make a difference because it definitely plays out differently between her and i than it has between me and my family where it's a lot of hard pluto aspects

in your case with him the trine might make it more helpful rather than harmful because when it's a harder synastry there's a difference and that's where you'll see a lot of abuse play out (like my synastry with my family)

posted May 10, 2019 02:20 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Franco:

Are you October / November 1990?

I was born on October 30, part of what you say I agree and jupiter leo squares my stellium in scorpio, which exaggerates the features more.

Never participate in physical violence (mars gem) but if I think that in the past I was psychologically toxic and emotionally manipulated my former partners, I think all this is unconsciousness, when one begins to be conscious begins to heal the mind.

---

Yes, November '90. I love my Jupiter don't get me wrong haha, but it sure does add a hot magnifying glass onto all the (trying to stay) hidden Scorpio.

Yes my Gem Mars as well avoids physical altercation like it doesn't exist sometimes (very rarely have I been in a physical fight and it was always scrapping with siblings when younger)- but my Mars is also Rx and in the 3rd house, with an exact (to the minute oh lord) sextile to Jupiter. So when I get amped up, I reaaaaally get amped up. But there's two big yods involving all of my personal planets and Jupiter/Neptune that keep me locked into constantly working at it- so that I think has really helped in recent years. I definitely had some similarities to what you mentioned, but it was very unconscious. I think I was more attacking myself and couldn't see it, which would cause a longstanding issue of former partners getting fed up and not understanding what was going on- which neither did I, so that's a whole mess.

posted May 10, 2019 03:28 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by implosions:
Yes, November '90. I love my Jupiter don't get me wrong haha, but it sure does add a hot magnifying glass onto all the (trying to stay) hidden Scorpio.

Yes my Gem Mars as well avoids physical altercation like it doesn't exist sometimes (very rarely have I been in a physical fight and it was always scrapping with siblings when younger)- but my Mars is also Rx and in the 3rd house, with an exact (to the minute oh lord) sextile to Jupiter. So when I get amped up, I reaaaaally get amped up. But there's two big yods involving all of my personal planets and Jupiter/Neptune that keep me locked into constantly working at it- so that I think has really helped in recent years. I definitely had some similarities to what you mentioned, but it was very unconscious. I think I was more attacking myself and couldn't see it, which would cause a longstanding issue of former partners getting fed up and not understanding what was going on- which neither did I, so that's a whole mess.

But yes, the consciously healing aspect is wonderful. Do you have Chiron interacting with your South Node if you were in October?

---

Yes, I have contact between quirón and Nodo sur (both at home 7) I also have the same yods as your and mars / jupiter.

I have never understood my yods, do you have information? I recently read an analysis of the Yod of the tragedy of Emiliano Sala (Oct. 31, 90) and they talked about the activation of their Yod.