posted March 13, 2020 03:06 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Belage:
I do believe the institutions you speak of will rein in the current "let's put the health of old and sick people ahead of the general good" when they start seeing:

1) signs of IMMINENT popular unrest.

2) their coffers being irreparably depleted. The stock market has already entered Bear territory.

However, how generous, forgiving or amiable to work with people's woes will these institutions be remains to be seen.

None of us know how long "normalcy" will take to return. After so many people have lost money and we are mired in economic depression, many industries may have a very long road to recovery. If the average American's pocket takes a bit hit, people are not going to be so quick to travel for leisure, to spend their money on eating out, sports events, entertainment, etc

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posted March 13, 2020 03:32 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Belage:
[QUOTE]
As of today, in China, there has been 80,115 coronavirus cases, with 3.177 deaths. That means 64,152 people recovered.

Let those numbers sink in, before you get consumed with worries about your 60+ old parents.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/china/

As for old people owning most of the stocks, lol, so now that we are entering a bear market due in large part to worries about them, these folks are old and broke. Great job, society!

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I am aware of the numbers, is 34 times more deadly than the flue so far but yes the fatality rate is 3.4% so is higher than the flue and more contagious but is not like a quarter or more of people who get them are dying or something insane like that.

There is a concern about this strain really weakening your lungs and re-infection been more of a concern. That unknown variable is part of the reason perhaps why this is been handled this way.

The comment about old people owning the stock market was a joke but good point now they are old and broke

Yes I have thought of what you are trying to say that perhaps they should have just instructed people to keep living their life telling everyone is just another flue but a different strain but do we know this with 100% certainty? the way China handled it set the tone and is hard to figure out the best course of action with a situation like this tbf, is easy to criticize and judge others who are handling a crisis situation and people who handle situations like this will always be criticized bc there is no perfect way to handle it, there is always repercussions no matter what.

The economy will eventually stabilize again and yes all these holds will be lifted sooner than later I think....

posted March 13, 2020 04:30 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Belage:
Jupiter in Capp is and will be saying:

Show me the money!
Keep businesses open!
Lighten the eff up!

Jupiter in Capp is/will be saying, life of business must go on! We need business to survive as a society, we need money. What good will it be to save old sick people if as a result we fall into economic depression?

Jupiter in Capp is/will say:
Instead of crippling businesses and regular activities of 90% of the population, maybe we should quarantine the people who are at risk of dying. hey should be required to wear masks, and wash their hands frequently and stay home since they are vulnerable.

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Jup in Cap can go **** himself then.

And funny thing is, the overall trend I've noticed is the elderly are the ones least likely to panic, including those who had the bad pneumonia last year (who are not sick but are at added risk). THEY'RE not the ones demanding businesses and schools be shut down, that would be the younger people drowning in clickbait news media on their phone and TV that knows it's economical (sells more ad revenue) to spread fear and anger than to perform a public service for which they receive a fair wage for. (Sometimes reporters rebel, and they tend to not do well, if they're allowed to keep their job at all.)

And though I know we as a society have come to worship false gods as the Dow and Wall Street over the value of human life (so if it's doing good then great, even if more people than ever have to make do with what they can get at the Dollar Store) and that a great many people of all ages have suffered for it, a great many would actually feel terrible if they, even carelessly, killed over their beloved grandmothers (and other elderly), something no amount of money can buy back.

Furthermore, locking people up in quarantine is part of what made the problem anyway. The places where it spread were like that ship where they were locked up together like some giant petri dish. Those homeless put into jails to get them off the street to keep it from spreading are going to make sure more get sick from it (and I have to wonder, is that the stupidity of panic and also those at the airports who are tasked to check for the virus but aren't given the proper gear meaning they're doing more to spread it than contain it which I'm sure is no joy to them since those doing the job are really at risk of catching it themselves, or if it's the same evil as giving diseased blankets to natives resisting the US government?). Others quarantined will also be at much more danger of it, if they're locked up with others.

At the risk of the mindless (but ingrained by media propaganda), knee jerk Pavlovian response of "Venezuela" or "Stalin" (since that's not what I mean at all--and I'd point out that beyond the breads and toys and glitzy escapism, our own society is also dystopian in its own way, and I'd include how hospitals work by Wall Street patterns are part of that WTF dystopian nature though it receives far too little press time by Wall Street for obvious reasons--and that includes patient dumping of the elderly with pneumonia and worse conditions at homeless shelters filled to capacity so they can clear up more beds for more obscene profits--where's the conservative panic over "death panels" when those panels are decided by Wall Street hospitals and insurance companies?), there have been other market paradigms that actually perform a public service.

Granted, it doesn't help the rich keep getting richer. And so perhaps it's better to reevaluate the role of the economic paradigm itself, the one that focuses either on breads & circuses (and provides for them) or gives an almost completely corporate (who owns the media) response, while silencing those who don't meet their approval, from certain politicians (just pretend they don't exist even when countless on YT are asking why) or say the people living in the Amazon as their homes are burned around them so there can be more farms to meet corporate demand and yet get almost no coverage beyond mentioning by corporate puppets who have to pay lip service to one set of values but serve a completely different set of values.

Alternative community and events show such alternative communities work well, just not the "greed is good" 80s/Monopoly tycoon way. It's especially ironic when people sell us movies about how looks and money and all that don't matter when those who make such movies clearly don't believe that themselves.

Maybe Jup in Cap is telling us to examine our talk and our walk and choose to make them align while paying lip service to one set of values even as we violate those values on a daily basis to get by.

In any case, I know from experience (and statistics on suicide, etc) that wealth doesn't equal happiness, though in our society is set up it's a lot more important than it needs to be.​
​
'Course that level of self-reflection and change seems unlikely as the model seems to ingrained in a rigged system (and I dare say addiction plays a part), so an easier alternative is just to learn not to go into panic mode. Surely if so many people can easily learn that "law of attraction" crap then not panicking (without becoming oblivious, fiddling as Rome burns, though that's pretty much what we were doing even before this) should be an easy discipline to master.​ Plenty of the elderly and others at risk are doing it. I bet if more put down their phones they could do it, too.
​
Granted, the market encourages (a temptation rarely denied) panic and anger as that sells more ad revenue.​ Though it self-corrects if it gets too bad (like I remember when the anthrax scares of I the early 2000s had too many not showing up to work and the media--much less yellow journalism than it is today, though still looking for the blood that leads--had to do a full reverse so that those who owned the press could have their other companies functioning again, which includes the many, many elderly people spending again).

If our option is to callously let people die or lock them away out of fear--a fear WE feel rather than them--then in my book that is far more horrific than the virus itself. Fear should help bring out our best, not our worst natures.
​
I'm perfectly happy tossing a briefcase of money (even if it includes some of my money and toys) off the train to save grandma and maybe that's what the stars want to hear, or at least Jup in Cap can respect that and we might just get something better out of the deal.

I'll leave with this (which should start at the :38 mark, and his words are over by the 2:15 mark):
http://youtu.be/OXBpnWe_bJQ?t=38

posted March 13, 2020 04:43 PM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:

In any case, I know from experience that wealth doesn't equal happiness, though in our society is set up it's a lot more important than it needs to be.​
​

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posted March 13, 2020 04:48 PM            

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
This isn't about been wealthy this is about not been homeless and poor and been able to eat and survive, pay your bills and live with peace and some degree of dignity, my goal was never to be wealthy, it was always to be middle class. If everything gets shut down for too LONG like many months this is what would happen and this would make everything even worse bc it would marginalize everyone and everyone would be vulnerable.

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posted March 13, 2020 04:50 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
Jup in Cap can go **** himself then.

And funny thing is, the overall trend I've noticed is the elderly are the ones least likely to panic, including those who had the bad pneumonia last year (who are not sick but are at added risk). THEY'RE not the ones demanding businesses and schools be shut down, that would be the younger people drowning in clickbait news media on their phone and TV that knows it's economical (sells more ad revenue) to spread fear and anger than to perform a public service for which they receive a fair wage for. (Sometimes reporters rebel, and they tend to not do well, if they're allowed to keep their job at all.)

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posted March 13, 2020 04:53 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
And that would not be the fault of the elderly or other at-risk people as they're not the ones panicking to an absurd degree (nor the ones going to the other extreme pretending its not happening). They should not suffer because we allowed our fear to turn us into demons.

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posted March 13, 2020 04:54 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
TBF I haven't heard anyone of any age demand that any business be shut down, everyone is just going along with what is been dictated and advised by leaders that is all.

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posted March 13, 2020 04:55 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hypatia238:

Yes I have thought of what you are trying to say that perhaps they should have just instructed people to keep living their life telling everyone is just another flue but a different strain but do we know this with 100% certainty? the way China handled it set the tone and is hard to figure out the best course of action with a situation like this tbf, is easy to criticize and judge others who are handling a crisis situation and people who handle situations like this will always be criticized bc there is no perfect way to handle it, there is always repercussions no matter what.

The economy will eventually stabilize again and yes all these holds will be lifted sooner than later I think....

Like someone said to me yesterday historically we have been through a lot worst and got through it, this will pass too.

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Look, I am Pisces rising, so don't think I don't know about compassion.

I also know that while a society has a duty or moral obligation to protect and care for the old and sick, questions remain as to whether or not it can do so at the cost of its stability and survival.

Advances in medicine are enabling people to live longer lives, but the truth and I see it everyday in my work is that a great number of those older lives are maintained with an army of medications, medical interventions and surgeries. At great financial cost to the health system, Medicare, Medicaid or whatever insurance the elderly has. And it is fine to do that. In fact, I think that's great!

But when you are asking that on top of that, society at large be ready to suffer great economic hardship and curtail normal activities on a large scale for an indefinite time just so that we avoid exposing this population to a virus that has shown to have a 14% mortality rate for them, then I feel we need to ask ourselves certain questions. At least, we need to have an honest dialogue as a society on what we are willing to do, what is feasible, and the consequences of our actions instead of just do things and hope for the best.

posted March 13, 2020 05:18 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Belage:
Look, I am Pisces rising, so don't think I don't know about compassion.

I also know that while a society has a duty or moral obligation to protect and care for the old and sick, questions remain as to whether or not it can do so at the cost of its stability and survival.

Advances in medicine are enabling people to live longer lives, but the truth and I see it everyday in my work is that a great number of those older lives are maintained with an army of medications, medical interventions and surgeries. At great financial cost to the health system, Medicare, Medicaid or whatever insurance the elderly has. And it is fine to do that. In fact, I think that's great!

But when you are asking that on top of that, society at large be ready to suffer great economic hardship and curtail normal activities on a large scale for an indefinite time just so that we avoid exposing this population to a virus that has shown to have a 14% mortality rate for them, then I feel we need to ask ourselves certain questions. At least, we need to have an honest dialogue as a society on what we are willing to do, what is feasible, and the consequences of our actions instead of just do things and hope for the best.

Astrologically speaking. I think that is where Jupiter AND Saturn (both teachers in their own ways) in Capp are forcing us to address those questions sooner or later, and Pluto adds the depth and urgency to the situation.

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I get were you are coming from, you are concerned that how is been handle will result in a lot more damage. It is a valid concern and I hope that balance is found in how the US handles this so that is not the case.

posted March 13, 2020 05:24 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
Fair point. But out of those who are expressing fear, I've noticed it's like mid- 20s to mid-40s. Out of the vast majority of the elderly, they've kept a calm but realistic head about this, think society is overreacting, and they even make jokes about it.

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I haven't been freaking out, and I'm in that age group. I wasn't panicking, until the stores started to be cleaned out yesterday, thanks to our governor. When I mentioned that on facebook, friends said, "At least he's telling you the truth." Maybe, but he went from telling people not to worry about a state of emergency being declared, to stating 100,000 people probably have it here, and so this happened:

posted March 13, 2020 09:21 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Solar_Leo_Queen:
Tbh, at this point, I'm totally okay with being wiped out considering the amount of stupid there is with the masses. I literally ran out of toilet paper the same day everybody started hoarding it. I was lucky to even snag a few, but I didn't buy every single one of them like those a s s holes out there.

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posted March 13, 2020 09:35 PM            

I responded with: "Well maybe this is a wake up call, I can totally see us shifting to maybe making our own medicine after this. We are giving another country WAY to much power over us if we don't make our own medicine! Is time for change! Maybe some good can come out of this."

posted March 13, 2020 09:53 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hypatia238:
.....the masks always minimize risk but they don't want the public to buy up all the masks so then there is not enough left for medical professionals ect like it happened in China...it does help but is not a full on prevention either.

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posted March 13, 2020 09:57 PM            

Still, I'm personally involved with the people who would be affected, I suppose say someone working for a big company would be looking at it from another angle.

Though I sincerely do wish people cared about other people more than money, and I get disturbed when people cite supernatural (Bibles, astrology, etc) to justify treating others inhumanely. (I recently rediscovered Rush, and their song Territories came to mind of looking through the eyeglass in reverse, don't feed the people but feed the machines...)

To an extent the closures are to prevent the disease from becoming overwhelming as the swine flu was. That is, it's inconvenient but will cost less in long run, both economically and in human lives, as hospitals aren't overburdened, "petri dish" quarantines aren't necessary (I think by now at least authorities realize that's a mistake in this case), and life can be somewhat normal soon, better than it otherwise would be. And if it really comes down to a choice between Wall Street and Main Street, Wall Street will win hands down as it always does, and come off smelling like roses to many people despite the manure it grows in and the thorns that prick. The economy is not going to collapse.

Unfortunately, so many others (who are desperate for this to end by any means necessary) are clearing the shelves (I'd say some companies are profiting very nicely) one would almost think it's something of a zombie apocalypse (and it bothers me how easily they can be made to panic so, and others have been made to suffer for it). I've seen them hostile on buses and in stores, one cashier even too afraid to pack my groceries (though on the plus side there was no line as too many are scared to go out). I expect the hysteria (and it is hysteria) is also contributing to drinking, domestic violence, and other ills, but that's the fault of us, not the disease, or even the stars.

The schools do worry me a bit. I know a teacher and she says that the local controls create a widely varying response. Teachers are likely gonna get kicked, but then they don't have the same love as Wall Street so most won't care. On the plus side, I have learned that where governments have been failing (and as it's an election year many politicians are trying to get their act together, though also exploiting the sitch--it's politics above humanity, of course, as usual, but sometimes the best politics is to truly serve the public in a genuine way) many private charities have been doing well to make sure food is delivered to those kids at their homes who need it, and in some cases, even set up safer emergency shelters for homeless families so they're not squeezed in with the rest (no easy feat!).

It shouldn't be too much of a burden, though I know it will be in many places. Another ill-effect of Wall Street (this goes into a change in the mid-20th century that I think was deliberate to transfer loyalty to family to loyalty to corporation) is essentially the breaking up of large families and too many temporary communities so setting up those who can take care of many children, once so easy, is going to be difficult in some places. And plenty of people are simply far too selfish to care about anyone's kids or grandparents (sometimes even their own kids or grandparents) or the like if it inconveniences them in the least.

Even so, people are working on solving the problem (with or without government aid), and my hat off to them who try to help others before worrying too much about Wall Street, and that's the kind of people we should be aspiring to be, and the rewards to both self and community can be greater than any stock options. The power of Wall Street does make economic repercussions a concern, but that's a problem more with a system that is romanticized more than it should be.

posted March 13, 2020 10:40 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
Sorry if I came off strong. Seeing plenty of elderly just fine and being pleasant (and working with plenty) and imagining them suddenly under house arrest because OTHERS can't keep their irrational fear under control, or worse, an actual quarantine which is very likely to backfire and actually infect those who would not otherwise be affected (killing those who would otherwise survive just fine), triggered me a bit. That would be an inhumane plan, and using astrology to justify it rankled me.

Still, I'm personally involved with the people who would be affected, I suppose say someone working for a big company would be looking at it from another angle.

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Pixie its totally normal everything you are feeling, Belage too was feeling strong emotions earlier today and you are too, and this is completely normal and understandable how both of you are feeling, and its completely normal you are both angry!!!!!! even very angry. I am glad you guys are expressing yourselves and getting your frustrations out, you are both essentially concerned and scared and I too was feeling very strong emotions including anger a few weeks ago.

I think been quarantine at your own home is super humane and the best we can hope for, I would hate to have to go to some facility to be quarantined. I want to be quarantined at my house if it comes to that. I could be at least cozy, listen to music and play video games. I would not consider that house arrest, I would consider that humane and if I had to die somewhere I would like to die in my home, hopefully with at least one person that cares for me and that I care for near me.

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJaneThough I sincerely do wish people cared about other people more than money, and I get disturbed when people cite supernatural (Bibles, astrology, etc) to justify treating others inhumanely.

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Again this isn't about caring about money more than people, Belage's concern is stemming from caring about people and minimizing how much this impacts everyone. Is bc she cares about people why she is expressing the concerns she is expressing, is not bc she wants to be rich. Its complex, is not black and white. She is concerned about the survival of everyone. I think her intense energy bc she is also feeling vulnerable and angry triggered you but you are both coming from a place of concern for humanity. You are more focused on how this impacts the elderly and she is more focused on the how it impacts everyone.

posted March 13, 2020 10:48 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:

To an extent the closures are to prevent the disease from becoming overwhelming as the swine flu was. That is, it's inconvenient but will cost less in long run, both economically and in human lives, as hospitals aren't overburdened, "petri dish" quarantines aren't necessary (I think by now at least authorities realize that's a mistake in this case), and life can be somewhat normal soon, better than it otherwise would be. And if it really comes down to a choice between Wall Street and Main Street, Wall Street will win hands down as it always does, and come off smelling like roses to many people despite the manure it grows in and the thorns that prick. The economy is not going to collapse.

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posted March 13, 2020 11:30 PM            

The challenge that this outbreak represents to you, and to your family, friends and community is likely not similar to anything you have seen before. All of us currently find ourselves having to process our way through uncertainty, understandable anxiety and heightened risk. At some point though, hopefully sooner rather than later, the world will return to normal. Throughout history, people have always risen to meet whatever challenges have been thrown their way — usually emerging stronger than ever.

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Earlier today, AMC announced our detailed plan to ensure a clean and healthy movie-watching environment for you at our U.S. theatres. Most importantly, we have taken bold nationwide action to encourage “social distancing.”

LIMITING SEAT CAPACITY IN EVERY AMC AUDITORIUM
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ENHANCED THEATRE CLEANING
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GUIDANCE FOR GUESTS AND THEATRE STAFF
• AMC has mandated that any theatre associate who feels ill is excused from work and should not come to the theatre.

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