posted August 15, 2009 05:02 AM         

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DONNA MUNSON considered the black bears that swarmed across her land in south-western Colorado to be her pets.

She fed them dog food and scraps - poking the food through a metal fence she had built around her porch - attracting so many bears that neighbours sometimes counted as many as 14 on her property at a time.

Last week one of them killed Mrs Munson, 74, slashing her head through the fence and dragging her body underneath it to consume her.

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posted August 15, 2009 05:16 AM         

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My clinical side says follow your body's intuition, eat what you crave...(within reason ofcourse.) Some people's metabolism needs what meat provides, others not.

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posted August 15, 2009 10:20 AM         

Introduction

posted August 15, 2009 10:23 AM         

I love your story!!!

I grew up on an Ohio farm and I can feel everything you write!

Brings up another sentiment of mine...

I do see the "value" in hunting nauturally and I do see the need for government to step in and manage hunting, fishing, etc.

Here in South Texas the ferel hogs have gone crazy, they are mean and attack anybody that they feel the need to do so, the native deer get killed on the road, just two examples of nautre gone wild, too wild and why just kill them to keep the population down, why not use what we can from their existence here on earth?

I love the idea of "organic" harvesting of plants and animals.

I am a Pisces and it does pain me to catch a fish, pull the hook from it's mouth and fry it in a pan for human consumption...reason why I fish little, well acutally quite boring!

Maybe, instead of disgust, we should look to the consumption of food, in all forms, animals and vegetables, with appreciation, with reverence.

In times of olde, WE were eaten! Dinos surely did not blink an eye to eat humans, they wanted to survive, as all living things do. Sharks do not attack humans cause they want a spot on the local media...nor do alligators....etc.

The circle of life remains, evolves, remains and evloves again.

Truely a utopian society (reminiscent of some long-forgotten Star Trek eposide) is appealing....live in harmony, all living things, maintaining nutritional balance with a mere pill, created in a lab....

posted August 15, 2009 11:12 AM         

"Earthlings" Part 3

FOOD

posted August 15, 2009 03:08 PM         

there IS iron in green leafy vegetables. there is NO carnitine, however, which is also essential to good health.

i eat very little meat but when i do i express my thanks and respect - as with everything else i eat. i also eat grass fed, free range animals.

i have had pretty good evidence throughout life that plants and even machines FEEL our love or hate for them. they thrive on the first and falter with the latter.

posted August 15, 2009 05:16 PM         

Love,

posted August 21, 2009 04:27 AM         

Its good that you don't eat animals raised on factory farms, and that you honor the "sacrifice" of the animal. It's also good that you are thinking about this and have some reasons behind your actions. Of course I disagree with them, and I'll try to keep my responses brief.

Humans are clearly unique in all the animal kingdom for our advanced intelligence. We do not go by mere instinct because we have too much foresight, and insight, for that. While there is something to be said for living in the present moment and not overthinking, we ought to take an active (and cognitive) part in our own evolution. We are not to fall back on our instincts -- the most primitive and unconscious parts of ourselves, -- but, to carry the torch of consciousness further, and to reforge our instincts in that fire. Neither should we look to the animals, and least of all the most violent among them, in order to find examples for how we ought to behave as mature human beings. Instead, we ought to be setting higher examples. We can, and should, dedicate our lives to the manifestation of the very highest that is within us. And this conscious evolution, by definition, works to contradict instinct. This is the greater part of our human grace and beauty. This is what distinguishes us from the beasts, not as clumsy wanderers who have lost touch with the natural world, but, as brave explorers, who have left the solid ground of instinct and set out upon the dark, uncertain ocean of self-awareness, in pursuit of ultimate truth. We will reach another land, a solid ground of instinct, but it will be higher instinct. It will be instinct forged by habit; like Shakepeare writes, "a second nature". But first we must perfect our habits, and not get stuck in a rut, allowing bad habits to concretize into a second nature, an instinct, that is no higher than that out of which we have risen.

Carnitine is present in many vegan foods. But I would first question the assumption that we need to ingest carnitine -- or even the amino acids that form it -- in order to build healthy bodies. Cows eat grass and, as far as I know, nothing else. Where do they get their carnitine? Their protein? Horses eat oats and hay, and are among the strongest and fastest animals on earth. How much meat do they eat, to get muscles like that? None. Let me repeat that. None. The animal kingdom is full of such examples. Is it so difficult to imagine that we might be similarly designed? The information I am uncovering suggests that we require very little in order to fuel our bodies, and the real problem is that we load up on so many toxins, we inhibit the good things, and we require more of them. Eliminate the toxins, and you won't have to micromanage your dietary needs.

Again, I think it is great that you approach the meal with a respectful, prayerful mind. To me, this signifies something higher than instinct. But let us consider, for a moment, what the situation would look like if there were another animal on the scene; one more intelligent, quicker, and stronger than homo sapiens. Let's say this animal decides that you would make a good lunch. How much do you suppose it would matter to you, if, after killing you, and prior to eating your bloody corpse, this animal said a warm and respectful prayer of thanks? Be honest. Now, lets say this "super animal" also had a choice not to kill and eat you, but to eat simpler life-forms instead, which would not suffer nearly so much, or leave so much potential unfulfilled, were they to be devoured in your stead. How much would the animal's "respect" for you matter then? Like me, I think you would conclude that, if his respect were just a little bit more sincere, he would show it by not killing and eating you in the first place.

I agree that all matter, which is composed of energy, vibrates in concord with love, gratitude, and respect, as indicated by the experiments of Dr. Emoto and others. The degree to which this concord, or harmony, is consciously felt is unclear, but there is reason enough to assume that plants and buildings do not suffer or rejoice as animals (including humans) do; though their molecules may dance more or less beautifully according to the nature of the influence upon them.

posted August 21, 2009 04:36 AM         

What did your diet consist of, before you started eating meat? Be specific. Also, consider other life challenges. What was going on in your life? It sounds like the lack of energy did not begin until your teenage years, -- a difficult time for everyone, which we all experience differently. Was there perhaps something going on, at home, at school, or in your social life, that could have drained your energy? I agree with your Grandmother; the golden middle way is best. As I see it, there is nothing more immoderate than killing other animals for the sake of our appetites, and whenever it is not the absolute last resort.

thanks for the love,

posted August 21, 2009 06:13 AM         

You can decide for yourself whether or not you have a duty to consider the objections I made to your earlier post, and, having considered them, whether or not you wish to make a response for the sake of furthering this debate/discussion. Personally, I would encourage you to respond to my objections with the same sincerity and seriousness with which I dealt with yours. It would be great if we could have a real back-and-forth, instead of dropping the dialogue when it starts to bear fruit. No wonder history continues to repeat itself, when nobody is willing to go the distance and get it done right the first time around. No wonder I hear and answer the same tired old objections over and over again. If you think you can refute my refutations, then please make an effort to do so. Otherwise, all thats left are my unanswered objections. It would be great if somebody would attempt to consider my responses, rather than just repeating the same objections that I've already taken the time to answer. But if you have more important things, or things closer to your heart, to attend to, then I won't press you for a response. I just think its a shame that these dialogues never get very far beneath the surface, because nobody seems willing to pursue it beyond a few posts. Everybody just voices their automatic opinions, and when these are challenged by logical argument, they dont bother to accept the challenge and do any real thinking. They just repeat their original objections, or find some new unrelated ones, without answering the challenge. Oh well. To each their own. I'm just saying, it would be nice to find someone who cares enough about this issue to go deeper. Or, if they cannot go deeper, at least, to admit that they cannot find a solid argument.

As for the wild hogs... They must think that we have run amok. Arent we the wild ones? We're not just wandering into the streets, we're paving the wilderness. We've declared it ours, and now we think they're the intruders, lol. I think there is never, or very rarely, only one solution to a problem. Before we think of what is easiest for ourselves (assuming it is easy for us to kill), we might want to consider alternative methods. For one thing, we might think of controlling our own population. Also, we could think of providing refuges for more dangerous animals. There's plenty we could do. I just dont think that killing should be our first and only option. Do you?

posted August 21, 2009 08:50 PM         

you then go on to compare the digestive system of a horse or cow with humans. do you know that many animals can create inside them things we cannot? apples and oranges, as they say.

posted August 21, 2009 09:00 PM         

However, in nature creatures eat other creatures. Humans are no different than any other aspect of nature.

posted August 21, 2009 10:16 PM         

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you began by pointing out that only humans are cruel. this is in error. ever seen a cat with a mouse or other prey - what do they do before they eat it?

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They play. Innocently.
It very different from the intentional
cruelty we see exhibited by humans.

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you then go on to compare the digestive system of a horse or cow with humans. do you know that many animals can create inside them things we cannot? apples and oranges, as they say.

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So, when it suits you, we are the same,
and when it does not suit you, we are not.
Are you so sure that the digestive systems
of these animals in so different that
what works for them wont work for us?
How about the digestive systems of people
who have been vegan for fifteen years,
and are strong, energetic, and sharp?
Are they apples to your oranges? Or...

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you have made a good start, love. keep on with it. one day you may believe that our "superior intellect" is a stumbling block in many ways. or not!

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How affectionately condescending, lol. Thank you.
I do see our intellects as stumbling blocks in many ways

posted August 21, 2009 10:23 PM         

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I am against the unnecessary suffering of any creature.

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Arent we all.

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However, in nature creatures eat other creatures.

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Many creatures are herbivores.
Many omnivores survive w/o meat.
Many humans are vegan, and thriving.

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Humans are no different than any other aspect of nature.

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So, is cannibalism permitted?
Are not the differences what you
are counting on to make your case?
I would say we are not so different,
and use that to argue that animal life
should be respected, just as human life.

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I don't eat a LOT of meat and I prefer not to eat something that was a baby, treated badly while it was alive or killed inhumanely

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"Prefer"... hmmm....
Yes, I prefer that, too.

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... but yes... I do love a good steak sometimes

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If you think I dont miss prime rib,
baby back ribs, sesame chicken, etc.,
think again. But that's not "love".

posted August 21, 2009 10:48 PM         

a dog who fights to the death to protect his territory does not come across as particularly kind. nor a human, though his "territory" may be his worldview or his dinner...

posted August 22, 2009 04:04 AM         

Hope this helps with your query.

posted August 22, 2009 09:57 AM         

I've never seen an animal, even an animal who's been abused and become angry, act in a deliberately cruel way. Dogs may bark ferociously and bite if you come too close, but they are, like you said, just territorial. The sort of day-in-day-out premeditated cruelty we see in many people is something quite different. You may say they are just protecting their worldview, or whatever, but I don't think it is that simple. In any case, whether you are right or wrong about this, it is a detour from the essential issues. As I've said, we are not here to model ourselves on the least among us, but the best. Will you compare yourself to a rabid dog, in order to justify your behavior, or will you look to a saint?

I'm reading this book right now and it has some interesting information comparing the physiognomy of carnivores, herbivores, and humans. I'll try to find it online so I don't have to copy it all out. I think you'd find it enlightening. We are, in so many ways, akin to herbivores, and very far removed from carnivores.

Lyra,

posted August 22, 2009 10:39 AM         

This bloody road remains a mystery.
This sudden darkness fills the air.
What are we waiting for ?
Won't anybody help us ?
What are we waiting for ?
We can't afford to be innocent
stand up and face the enemy.
It's a do or die situation - we will be invincible.

This shattered dream you cannot justify.
We're gonna scream until we're satisfied.
What are we running for ? We've got the right to be angry.
What are we running for when there's nowhere we can run to anymore ?
We can't afford to be innocent
stand up and face the enemy.
It's a do or die situation - we will be invincible.
And with the power of conviction there is no sacrifice.
It's a do or die situation - we will be invincible.

Won't anybody help us ?
What are we running for when there's nowhere

nowhere we can run to anymore ?
We can't afford to be innocent
stand up and face the enemy.
It's a do or die situation - we will be invincible.
And with the power of conviction there is no sacrifice.
It's a do or die situation - we will be invincible.

We can't afford to be innocent
stand up and face the enemy.
It's a do or die situation - we will be invincible.
We can't afford to be innocent
stand up and face the enemy.
It's a do or die situation - we will be invincible.

posted August 22, 2009 01:15 PM         

With all due respect

Have you seen humans in despair?

Have you ever seen what we humans do to people?

Have you ever seen old folks or the bed-ridden for that matter, with bed sores the size of footballs? (all the way down to the bone...)

Have you ever seen people mistreated so bad that they have maggots within those wounds?

Do you forget about the destruction of the rain forrests?

Do you forget about the destruction of trees so you and I have some sort of "modern" invention to clean our butts with?

Seems to me "meat addiction" is far from the root of the problem.

I do not support the viewing of the massacre of "infidels" in some countries by taking of their heads with a mere sweep of the sword, I do not support posting horrible videos of animal slaughter, I do not support PETA or Whale wars....

I DO support, however, making a difference here at home, starting with our families and communities.

Healing begins within, then extends outward little by little, I believe.

I give a great home to 4 indoor cats and one dog, I provide a blessed ground for many, many trees and plants to grow upon, I go to work 36 hours a week and do what I can to heal humans...

And by the way, I do not eat meat.

Just personal preference.

But if one wants/needs to, so be it.

I have seen far greater destruction in "addictions" than to meat.

t~~~

posted September 08, 2009 08:56 PM         

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What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~