posted September 12, 2009 06:09 AM         

But right across the board it seems to be the same. Guys just don't have any motivation to DO anything, and are incredibly selfish, and usually mamma's boys, and they tend to want to talk about relationships all the time. Do you think this over-feminization is because so much is readily available nowadays, which reduces the need for men's "hunter" instinct? I hate all this "feminization" - I feel it's led to total apathy in males and the feeling that they don't have to do anything because of the assumption that "the woman will do ALL the work" (which I refuse to)!!!

I blame our parents' generation in the 60s, for not having provided an example of good moral codes to follow. It's a pathetic situation!

posted September 12, 2009 08:34 AM         

I am a man.

I don't fit the typical male stereotypes. I can admit that I am very feminine for a male. I have the high voice,don't have a very noticeable adam's apple, don't have much muscle tone,and I am very emotional,sensitive (but that could also be connected to my neuro-divergence..so can my speech irregularities),and I don't have the squared type of jaw. I face is rather oval and rounded.

I have high estrogen levels and lower than average testosterone levels reflected by my index fingers longer than my ring fingers that shows that I was exposed to more estrogen when I was in my mother's womb.

also..I am the last person to criticize another for having a mental disorder and being on benefits. I have my own neurological differences which would be viewed as mental disorders by the mainstream. I also have disability compensation for mental illness connected to my service in the navy.

I also have a mother who has serious health problems,and I help support her, being the only children. Therefore,I feel that I have obligations and responsibilities when it comes to her.

I do have goal of setting up a nonprofit neuro-diversity organization. Neuro-diversity advocacy is my life purpose. Also I would like to be a professional astrologer and holistic practitioner. I have been seeing a shaman for healing work on me. He happens to be a neuro-divergent too.

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted September 12, 2009 09:08 AM         

Plenty of women can be that way, too, typically with those who beat them or are at least jerks. I know in some cases they work hard to bring it about. I saw one harass a guy passed out on drugs despite my telling her to stop until he lashed out, not really conscious as far as I'm concerned, and then she acted like she was this huge victim. Later I saw another poke her unconscious boyfriend and I warned her and it was the very same story. And they wonder why they didn't get any sympathy from me. But those were extreme cases and generally they're like that guy I mentioned above who'd only hook up with ***** , only they'd find jerks & abusers, and seem to pass on everyone else (while typically assuming everyone else was pretty much that way anyway). They typically had fathers who abused them and/or their mothers, too, just as that guy I mentioned had a mother who formed his negative view of women.

So based on my observations, I'd think you'd find these types because they fill something you need and couldn't stand to live without. Just like that guy who hated lying ***** would never date any other kind, or the women who moan about abusive guys but never find any other kind, my first guess is that you find these guys because you seek them out for reasons similar to why these other people looked for their own losers to dance with over & over again. Though I'm not certain what that reason is...one of the things I'm still trying to figure out.

I'd suggest trying a country & western bar, but you'd probably zero in on the drunks who keep losing their job and are going nowhere as a result instead of the many others who go there. Probably wherever you go there are plenty of guys that don't fit the stereotype--I sure see guys unlike what you describe everywhere of all ages--but you just won't click with them for whatever reason, or even notice them.

That said, I see plenty examples, again of all ages, who do fit near to very much with the stereotype you describe. They're common enough, but hardly typical. Ok, as a general rule based on my observations, men tend to be as emotionally mature (and appreciating the type of humor) as a woman half his age (many exceptions naturally exist, but seems to be the way to bet), but other than that my observations have been different from yours.

Another possibility is that the men you wish you'd find are too into pursuing their own goals to mix with you for some reason (you don't run in their crowd, you're not seen as good for their career or lifestyle, etc).

posted September 12, 2009 10:01 AM         

quote:

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Men, just be MEN. Go out there in the world and DO something - get out of the mindset that prizes are for all (or none). Competitiveness is good. Competing with other men (and women) is good. For the sake not only of humanity, but also for yourself, do yourself this favour, so that you don't die knowing subconsciously that you did relatively little with your life other than sitting on the computer most of the day and wallowing in your own alternate self-aggrandisement and self-hatred. Just f***ing be a MAN!!! I'm sure it's not difficult, if you try - although this society tries darn hard to make it so!

---

THANKYOU! Thankyou thankyou thankyou thank you and once again, THANKYOU!

You are right when you say that the current generation as a whole lacks any real motivation to go out and aspire to be something productive not only for society but for themselves as well. Way too many people get sidetracked by the most idioitic reasons... I will be fair and acknowladge that there are those who do get bumped off the road for legit reasons but they still have the "can do!" spirit and manage to make something happen from that given tragedy or unfortunate situation. However, for the most part, most of these given people just don't give a damn about their future prospects and that is what ****** me off. What irks me off more in when these same people come up with the most idiotic reasons to de-bunk my POV such as "duuuuhhh... welll.... you are financially set and young and you look good... You have it easy." Ok one can't exactly control their genetic makeup, but I came to this country a teen under the supervisation of my elder brother and attended highschool here like everyone else. The only difference I see between myself and you is that I pushed myself to attain my goals! I had a set idea as to where I wanted to be, and worked hard for it. I got the grades, I revamped my personal portfolio with a whole slew of high-demand prominent work, athletic, and academic experience, I won competitions, I got into a good university and while doing that, I landed an amazing job. I succeeded because I pushed myself to succeed. And now... I am financially set, have an amazing life and an amazing financee who is as dedicated to her goals as I am (Oh wait, that was relationship talk non? Lol!)

There was an article posted up on psychologytoday.com not too long ago which had an interesting POV on the whole matter:

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200411/nation-wimps

posted September 12, 2009 04:21 PM         

It is the Mamma's boy thing, I swear! That plus how many children were in the family. The least amount of children, the more spoiled the man, in my experience. If they were handed everything, you can bet they will expect that for the rest of their lives.

My kids father still calls his mother to bail him out of everything! It is sooooo stupid. Instead of getting a part time job or something, he'd rather be into her for thousands of dollars which she gladly takes back in monthly guilt payments. UCK!

posted September 12, 2009 04:51 PM         

I was the only child. I wasn't really that spoiled. I was also physically and verbally abused as a child.

also, my mother has been turning to me for financial help for a long time. Even when I was first in navy bootcamp,I gave her a lot of my paycheck. Even now, I give her 200 dollars every month. She has serious health problems and is on disability. As the only child, I have the responsibility and obligation to support her in any way that I can.

I'd look at aspects to the Moon in the man's chart, and look at the 5th house in the mother's chart.

in my own chart:
Moon in Pisces in 6th square the opposition of retrograde Saturn in Gemini in 9th and Jupiter-Neptune in Sagittarius in 3rd.
Sun in Scorpio in 2nd trine Moon in Pisces in 6th.

in my mom's chart:
Sun in Gemini in 12th trine Neptune in Libra in 5th.
Moon in Scorpio in 5th trine the conjunction of Mercury in Cancer in 1st,Venus in Cancer in 2nd,and Uranus in Cancer in 2nd.
Venus-Uranus in 2nd square Neptune in Libra in 5th.
Saturn in Scorpio in 5th trine the conjunction of Jupiter in Cancer in 1st and Ascendant in Cancer.
Moon in Scorpio in 5th square Pluto in Leo in 3rd.

5th house ruler Venus is in 2nd,and 2nd house ruler,Moon is in 5th. Mutual Reception via houses and their rulers.

The synastry and the composite chart of the mother and son are also something to give clues to the relationship of the mother and son.

There are also women that can't get away from their mothers and let their mother dictate their lives and intefere with their relationships. There are mama's girls just like there are mama's boys. There are daddy's boys just like there are daddy's girls.

my maternal grandfather had Sun in Cancer,and he was a mama's boy. He lived next door to his mother who was 14 years older than him. He helped take care of her. He was no feminine type of man in mannerisms. He also took care of his business when it came to his wife and family. When my Aries grandmother tried to give my mom up for adoption, he kept my mother. He felt a connection to my mother and couldn't let go of her. This was after he came back from Korea. He was in the Marines.

My maternal uncle Dino has Moon in Cancer,and he is there for his mother. He is feminine type of guy either. He is married with 2 biological children and 2 stepchildren. As a man, he steps up to the plate.

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted September 12, 2009 06:36 PM         

many females can be sexist against males just like many males can be sexist against females

just like racism is not a problem of just one particular race against another race, but it's multiracial issue

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted September 12, 2009 06:47 PM         

quote:

---

I guess that was unfair. But it IS a parents job to make sure that they raise they're sons self sufficient. It isn't easy though, when we love our kids we want to do things for them, you know, but doing too much isn't doing them any favors, that is what I meant.

---

posted September 12, 2009 07:08 PM         

I agree.

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

posted September 12, 2009 07:29 PM         

I guess this is just an area of sensitivity.

I love my son soooo much, and I want him to grow up strong, but see, how do I explain this??

posted September 12, 2009 09:02 PM         

my dad and most of the men in my family tend to be more sensitive and family oriented, but all are hard workers and smart and definitely NOT lazy whiners. but every family situation is different and every man is different. i would think a lot of females are this way too.

i encounter a lot of people at work who are the very entitled sorts. even those with degrees. they're smart but don't do things to help themselves move forward in life. life is what you make it and not everyone are go-getters and that's what i found out when i moved away from home and was placed with people much different than what i was used to. it's like being around academics and overachievers all my life to being around people who don't take education seriously and never lived anywhere else but their own home. it was a strange adjustment but i accepted that people are different.

however, i don't associate or keep close with people or can relate to people like this that you describe. this kind of behavior wouldn't be allowed in my family or circle of friends.

but as i said, maybe you can help your boyfriend improve himself or be that friend that inspires him to have the courage to go for it. but...some people just aren't like that and you have to accept them as that or move along.

posted September 13, 2009 02:50 AM         

Older, real men are where it's at. At least I find alot of them very attractive. They come from a different generation, are gentlemen and not afraid of hard work and are generally more polite. They know how to respect and treat a women most often too.

posted September 13, 2009 05:26 AM         

I'm a creative - so don't tend to mix much with attorneys or bankers, more people I can talk to about creative stuff - so perhaps the problem is a social one. I'm probably just not moving in the right circles.

Azalaksh, you're right, I'm an Aries with 10th House Mars. I have an Aries father with Cap on the midheaven whose mantra was that he was going to give his children zero help in their career or otherwise, since they would have to make their own way in life. So as a younger person I didn't get ANY help from my parents whatsoever. As a young person I could have benefited from some emotional support as people not only need academic ability, but self-confidence and social skills to get ahead, but this was mainly the fault of my mother, who went out of her way to be a tyrant in the home and make my father and I very unhappy. I think she was one of those people who couldn't bear to see anybody else happy or getting on with life and always had to drag them down so that they ended up feeling as sh*t as herself. Deep down I probably still lack a bit of self-confidence and need to build on that to get where I want to be.

I am building a better relationship with my dad now, as we are so much alike. He himself ran a number of small businesses and whilst he doesn't advise me on everything (being a man of few words) he does actually appreciate what I am trying to do and how tough it is. My mother and I don't get on at all (we no longer communicate, as she is also extremely lazy and with the same sort of self-love/ self-hatred mindset and attitude of entitlement as my ex-h and b/f), so I am glad that I do at least have moral support from my father's side and that he is able to "give" in some sort of positive way.

My b/f who is a Scorpio w. Cancer Moon has a complex relationship with his mother as apparently she was very verbally abusive to him when he was a kid (though whether he drove her up the wall is anybody's guess). She confided in me recently that she and his father wanted to move, but were worried about what would happen to (my b/f - he is 46). I blinked for a moment, and then said, "Well, you know, I think (b/f) can look after himself!" - seems there has always been a bit of overconcern/ overparenting, especially regarding health & support issues, from that quarter!!

They share a lot of character traits and he seems to live in a state of perpetual dissatisfaction and have trouble with his attention span - when he comes into a room it's switch the radio on, switch the TV on (with remote controls, preferably one in each hand), get a drink, change the channel on the TV, change the channel on the radio (whilst talking the whole time), get some food, check the mobile, switch the Xbox on and play for 5 minutes, switch it off, switch the TV on again, spend considerable amounts of time on the phone to lawyers finding out whether people are worth suing, buy stuff over the Internet, find fault with it, send it back (and demand compensation), change the channel on the radio etc. If he spent half as much time doing his creative stuff as he did on the phone, he would be miles ahead by now, and I've told him so. He said: "I wonder if I've got a disorder of some description (no doubt considering the possible "disability benefits")", and I said NO, you're just disorganised and NO, you don't need medication, there's no magic to doing work, you just get on and DO IT, it's as simple as that.

He makes any and every excuse NOT to get on with what he is *supposed* to be doing, is perpetually late (as he feels he is above everyone else and they should "wait for him" - he is distantly related to some royal family, so I suppose has a feeling of entitlement). He drives everyone up the wall, including his family, and then acts as if they were at fault when they all get annoyed with him. A few weeks ago he was talking to a group of people saying "I'm going to record an album of songs a week etc. etc." and I was so embarrassed, because it was so patently obvious he couldn't put his money where his mouth was, and he's so desperately insecure that he feels he has to act like that, and the people around were aware of that too, though they might not have said anything out of politeness. The difference between him and me is that when I say I am going to do something I do it (just like my father). B/f and I have just had a major bust-up and I pray to God he took some of what I said to heart, for his own good, because I did offer up some rather uncomfortable home truths (though he tried to paint me as the "nasty" one - I wasn't having any of it!).

Previously, I did try dating a Capricorn (with a Sag Moon) and he definetely had the right attitude towards self-improvement in the career sense, but had personal hygiene and weight issues which he didn't want to address; he also saved up 6,000 GBP, but ended up spending it all on booze, and was also insecure, with a tendency to feel very sorry for himself. So I don't know whether I'm just uber-picky or not patient enough with people or what. I do end up finding myself propping men up a lot, rather than it being a matter of give and take.

Weirdly, I go for men who are like my MOTHER, whom I also had to prop up for years and years because of my parents' marital difficulties. I did tell myself this wouldn't happen again and at least I am in a stronger position now since my current b/f is not the only person in my life and I do make an effort to go out and maintain a wider circle of friends. Unfortunately it seems present b/f does not have personal qualities which would make him suited to a long-term relationship - but there you are, you win some, you lose some. Saturn's moving into Libra soon, so obviously anything that isn't working on the relationship front may have to go. For some time over the last couple of years it was in my 12th House, which is apparently a bit of a magnet placement for negative people - right now I am trying to eliminate anyone negative from my life and I have succeeded in getting rid of most of the people that were bothersome, leaving the people who really matter (of which there seem to have been more than I realized).

posted September 13, 2009 02:31 PM         

For what it is worth, I think you've done an excellent self anaylsis here. Seems like you have thought this all through very thorougly, now it is just a matter of what to do.

posted September 13, 2009 02:39 PM         

Just think of King Henry the 8th.

posted September 14, 2009 02:36 AM         

Though his Aquarian spirit doesn't like the insinuation of lack of equality, I call my husband a hunter-gatherer. He is just about still in his 40s - and has Sun CNJ Saturn.

posted September 20, 2009 06:17 PM         

It reminded me of a time earlier on this year when I actually called the police because we had been in his flat and he had been very menacing and threatening verbally, punching the wall (I was terrified at the time as I had been divorced several years earlier, partly due to a husband who was violent and lazy).

This time he had tried to pick fights all evening out of the blue and was extremely blaming and I told him I wasn't standing for any of it. In a way, I think he has been trying to break up with me for some time and is trying to create a reason for doing so (even though he states that that is not the case - perhaps it is a make or break time - who knows?) The crunch came when he stated that he wanted to talk about things for us to do together (we are both musical so he suggested we do work in a duo and as a power trio).

All well and good, you might say, give him a chance - but the trouble is, I know what he's like and he has frustrated countless people in the past because he procrastinates all the time and just doesn't do anything PLUS he will make a decision one minute and then do a complete U-turn the next. I said: "If you can stick with a decision, that's fine. However - if you keep making U-turns in your decisions, I can't work with you" (because I have had so much of working with narcissistic bullsh*tters over the past couple of years and I won't work with any more). Which he took offence to (naturally, because that would have required modification of his behaviour, which as a notoriously inflexible and selfish person he would have found difficulty with).

So the staring started. Then: "Don't touch me! You can look at me, but don't touch me. I'm good at this, you know. I can keep this up forever."
Aries: (chortles) Staring, you mean? (Thinks: This is a pile of cr*p!)
Scorpio: It's not a laughing matter.
Aries (has made a timetable at Scorpio's request in order to enable him to organize himself better): Well, if you're going to be like that, I'm going home - and I'll take that timetable back, thank you VERY much!
(Scorpio snatches the timetable out of Aries' hand, and looks like they're going to kill them)
Aries: I'm going home.
Scorpio: WAIT for me to open that door.
Aries: Oh for God's sake...Open the door then.
Scorpio: I don't need to be TOLD or ASKED to open my own door!

That does it. Aries just couldn't care any more about him...something silently dies inside her...no more words are spoken. Scorpio opens the door, Aries slips out and Scorpio follows her down the stairs. Aries flounces out of both outside doors to the block of flats, not caring whether they slam in Scorpio's face or not Scorpio is about to give her a lift home, but she breezes off down the road and takes the tube instead.

I can't be bothered to argue with him or listen to his bullsh*t anymore. I have come to realize he (like many lazy people) is a total narcissist and an extremely selfish individual - everything is always about HIM and what he can get out of people. And what's with the commanding people to do things as if they were some slave? If he wants that he'd better buy himself a doormat, or get himself an arranged marriage (poor woman).

For me, as things stand, I think the best tactic is just to ignore him and hope he'll go away. He couldn't hold down a relationship if his life depended on it. He doesn't have the inclination to make the effort in that, or any other area, of his life - he doesn't want to go anywhere or do anything, and frankly there is more to life than just sex and sitting around talking. I'm BORED and I think the relationship (if you want to call it that) has gone as far as it can, and I've switched off.

Like I said, I think upcoming Saturn in Libra is already making its presence felt and getting rid of all the dross in the relationship area of my life - I have already got rid of practically all of the extremely negative people I met during Saturn in my 12th (who seemed to work to undermine me, and were almost all narcissistic). I've realized that I don't have to be around people like that - I don't WANT to be around those people, so why should I stick with it just for the sake of it, if I have the CHOICE?

Love to you for all your contributions!!

posted September 20, 2009 06:34 PM         

quote:

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Scorpio: WAIT for me to open that door

---

That would really p!ss me off.