posted November 05, 2009 09:37 AM         

I understand your frustrations. I think people have different ideas about how we should all "just get along." For me, I like to know how people feel so that I can avoid offending them unnecessarily. As I've said before, this is simply what I consider to be polite and appropriate public behavior.

Some people feel that everyone should be free to say and do as they please. I can understand that point of view as well, although it's not a theory to which I completely subscribe. Hypothetically speaking, it sounds fantastic, but in my experience, it just doesn't work.

Primarily, what I am concerned with is respect. Respect for the site and respect for one another. Some of us have been here for a while. Every one of us, regardless of when we arrived, helped to build this place.

For a lot of us, LL has a special significance in our lives. And when a thing has value, it's natural to want to protect it. What you perceive as "moaning" about the way things used to be, I see as a legitimate expression of concern over losing something valuable. You're entitled to that. But what I don't understand (and you're not the only one; in fact, many of us have been guilty at one time or another) is the defensiveness/hostility/disrespect with which those concerns are being met.

I've never been a fan of the "if you don't like it, there's the door," attitude. I am a fan of the spirit of cooperation. In order to achieve this, we certainly need to be able to air our grievances. However, we don't have to become disrespectful to achieve this.

I can see that the focus on the Godzala threads has resulted in some defensive reactions. I don't think that everyone who finds value in those threads and therefore wants to protect them has been defensive. But some have, and usually that's where we stop being respectful.

The bottom line is that, yes, we're all members here, and, no, we don't all have to like each other. But we should at least feel safe to express our concerns and we should be respectful of one another's feelings. The idea here is that we may find a way to meet in the middle. This isn't always possible, but it's always worth the time to try.

Isn't that a warm and fuzzy notion?

For the record, Letram, I'm not picking on you. I was just inspired by one of your posts on the first page and it prompted me to respond. I did feel offended by some of what you wrote, but I think I understand where you're coming from. My hope is that I could shed some light on the other side of the issue.

posted November 05, 2009 10:34 AM         

firstly, i would like to reassure you, that i do not feel picked on at all, and i'm glad you came into my topic and expressed yourself. this is exactly what i created the topic for.

can you elaborate on what i wrote that offended you? is it the apparent "if you don't like it, there's a door" 'approach'?

i don't like that approach, i didn't particularly suggest, or mean to suggest that people should leave. however, i think its appropriate that they consider it, if it is so 'BAD' that they can't enjoy LL anymore, like how they 'used to'.

And that's what brings me to my point, is it worth leaving just because you don't like some discussions or members? obviously Not. but its obviously bad enough to complain or moan about? but why? i don't even think its worth That even.

lets take a step out of the situation, and look at it neutrally -

party A is enjoying the same playground the Party B is, but they are enjoying it differently. they are not getting in each others way of enjoying themselves. Party B doesn't like the way Party A is enjoying themselves, because they feel its ruining their fun or enjoyment, and party B would like them to stop or use the playground the very same way as they do.

does it sound logical so far? i don't think so.

why should party B stop having fun and worry about how party A is? why should party B dictate how party A should behave if they are not breaking 'the rules'. is it even their right to dictate that? why is party B not having Fun anymore? nothing is stopping them.

members doing and saying as they please, shouldn't be a problem unless its breaking the rules. and if were talking about respect, then the members should come together and sort it out like adults without arguing, and simply respect one anothers feelings. (aslong as the feelings are bloody rational)

the members here can't even seem to do that in this 'situation' about the state of topics and discussions going on. and for good reason, because it will just sound ridiculous.

"can you guys stop talking about things like that, its ruining the forum and bothering us, we can't help but read what we don't like, and we'd prefer it if it didn't exist at all" wtf?

if were talking about meeting in the middle, and trying to reach a mutual satisfaction to make both parties happy, then perhaps 1 or 2 new sub forums can be opened to separate these types of discussions from one another, JUST like tv channels! lol.

For a lot of us, LL has a special significance in our lives. And when a thing has value, it's natural to want to protect it. What you perceive as "moaning" about the way things used to be, I see as a legitimate expression of concern over losing something valuable.

I understand this, but i think its a little 'over the top' (that's the nicest way i can say that without being offensive here). it is just a Forum, that contains a community. maybe its more to others, but that's their own decision and problem, why be possessive of something that is not YOURS to own, but to share? if you want to make it your own, and in your own way, i see two simple options - create a poll to make changes here for the admins to decide on with the members voting, or - create a forum which meets your needs. or, we could all just Drop this and continue using Lindaland without letting this stuff bother one another. why has this all begun? because 'party B' is complaining, which has brought out more negative reactions apparently? so if complaining stops - things just continue.

and for the record, i don't really care if its filled with what is perceived as 'bad' and 'good' topics. i'm just looking at this whole situation and pointing out that its a bit ridiculous, its making a mountain out of a molehill, and in my eyes, a molehill shouldn't even exist in this 'situation'.

i'm a fan of cooperation too, 'moaning' or complaining, what ever you want to call it, is not cooperation is it? cooperation would be to just continue as usual and not let what is apparently bothering people, bother them! people should just pay no attention. it is not a 'Disruption' to the forums, so how can it bother them?

i don't dislike any members over this thing, i have nothing personal in it.

i can say i Dislike 5* members on Lindaland, but none of them are over this 'business' again, im just pointing out things in the 'situation'. i have respect for all, i like many members. but i am lacking the patience a little for what i perceive as irrelevant complaints.

Forums Change. Discussions Change. Opinions Change. People Change. Change is normal.

when a forum is based on a Fixed subject matter, its going to run out of 'new' discussions more eventually, that is just inevitable. so again, perhaps a new forum/sub forum could fix all this and make everyone happy. a Forum should be able to Adapt not particularly stay fixed and refuse Change. it should embrace it. it's just like music and era's, it changes with times, people might not like the way its changing, but you just stick to what you like, and if you want to change it or whatever, set by example, as i said.

we should feel safe to express our concerns and feelings. most definitely, but these apparent concerns or complaints are just irrational to me, i think there's more behind it for some people than just what it appears to be on the surface. mostly because of what you said - they 'value' this place.

we should meet in the middle, especially if there is a real problem. ( in my opinion, i can't see how anyone can say this is a REAL 'problem') but i guess everyone being happy would be nice, so if we can do that, go for it. but moaning/complaining ain't the right way, obviously.. look what it brought out? lol

i do apologize in advance if anything i have wrote offends you again, that is not my goal or my intention.

i just want to point out how all of this really seems to be, at least from a reasonable point of view.

posted November 05, 2009 10:51 AM         

i can, have been, still and will continue to enjoy LL the way i always have been. i cooperate and get along with using lindaland without letting any of this kind of stuff brought up here, bother me. i am simply stating what i think of it. in general, i do not state this kinda stuff, and i do not 'moan'. i created this topic for people to express things about LL, so it is relevant here.

for the record, i am not 'frustrated' lol, i really do not have any attached 'feelings' or emotions to it or this 'situation'. and my expression about all of this is simply to point out things, that's what the topic is for.

the topic can be locked tomorrow, it won't make a difference to me with the way LL is, i am just saying what i make of all this.
so please... people.. try not to mistake my posts as moaning like i want something to change, i am not bothered with what happens.

i 'put up' with anything i may dislike about 'LL', i still use it and not let it bother me. i just find it a joke that others, apparently older than i am too, can't do the same.

posted November 05, 2009 11:12 AM         

I'll quickly address your example of Party A and Party B at the playground. I think there are many ways of seeing this, and yours is just as valid as any. My initial concerns with the threads were that they were exclusive and used, in part, to discount other members (which I addressed, and PA responded on that) and the potential technical issues of the threads. Again, this has been answered. Now, personally, although I don't hate the threads, I do find them excessive at times. I even peruse them occasionally and have posted here and there. In my opinion, supporting numerous Godzala threads isn't the purpose of this forum, but that's just my opinion and I don't hold other people to my opinions. (Granted, it's a general conversation area. This is where the threads would belong, if anywhere.) I want to state again: THIS IS JUST MY OPINION AND I DON'T INTEND TO HOLD ANYONE TO IT!! It's not up for debate because there is no argument. My intention isn't to convince anyone, nor do I need to be convinced. I already see the other point of view and have validated it.

I think my analogy would be slightly different. It feels more to me like there's a Party A at the playground, and then everyone else (some of whom may have eventually formed Party B because, collectively, they shared some concerns.) I guess this falls under the exclusivity issue I mentioned above, and, like I said, it was addressed. But I think this point of view is just as valid as the other.

I don't think anyone is right or wrong, and that's not the point. The point, (for me, anyway,) lies in understanding other points of view so we can be more sensitive to them.

I hope I explained this clearly-- I've been a bit distracted by my munchkins. Clearly my quiet time is over!

Thanks for the discussion, Letram.

posted November 05, 2009 12:52 PM         

I can understand a certain annoyance with Godzala, but I think Letram's pretty on point with his ideas.

posted November 05, 2009 01:03 PM         

what you have pointed out as reasoning behind what people 'miss' about the old LL, or miss in LL's past, makes absolute sense. and i can't believe i didn't even think of it.

there is DEFINITELY a 'cliquish' thing on LL, that is what i meant in my first post about 'Favoritism' i don't like it, but i embrace it anyway.

i think that is probably a big reason in what people are missing about LL in the past, different community/members. i have only been here since 2008 i think, and i miss some of the members i used to talk to often throughout the forum (even though i was NOT part of any 'clique').

Older members perhaps are not adapting to a newer/ever growing 'community' here, and perhaps missing out on new 'bonds' with the newer members. hence perhaps a feeling of being 'left out' on the same 'feelings' of connection or bond they once had in the past.

perhaps? maybe this is what coincides with the topics too, topics were 'different' back then with the community which obviously would also be different in the past.

i hope i have not misinterpreted what you meant, correct me if i am wrong.

posted November 05, 2009 01:18 PM         

I also didn't intend to impart the message that I think life should be all bunnies and butterflies. But when there are tensions, I do try to be more understanding and sensitive to other points of view.

I'm not as concerned with the Godzala threads as I am with the reactions. And those kinds of reactions aren't specific to this particular topic.

I usually don't get involved in LL controversies. However, T's thoughts mirrored several of my own and it felt kind of lame for me not to say so openly. I found the aftermath to be a bit surprising-- I hadn't expected things to get bitter. I find it interesting that some of the messages overtly express the idea of, "if you don't like it, then please ignore it (fair enough)," but the tones in which they're expressed seem to say, "I don't like your opinion, so eff off." It's kind of a mixed message.

I guess I've had enough of this kind of attitude, here, there and everywhere.

Change is a good thing. Change is a natural thing. But that doesn't mean that we should abandon the basic principles of respect and consideration.

posted November 05, 2009 01:23 PM         

Good call.

posted November 05, 2009 02:28 PM         

If you don't like the "complaint" threads,
you are free to ignore them and pass them by.
All this complaining about complaining....
I'm sorry, I just dont get it.

But I do agree with you that it's a pain when
people post on a topic that doesnt interest them,
and their only intention is to "playfully" derail it,
or to voice their hurtful assumptions about the
character of the person who started the thread.
That's something that seems out of line, to me.

The other isssues I had have been solved, or,
appear to be on their way to being solved.

So, I'm happy.

Future Uncertain,
You seem very sane lately.
I like everything you're saying.
Peace and love to you in abundance.

posted November 05, 2009 02:38 PM         

"letram,

If you don't like the "complaint" threads,
you are free to ignore them and pass them by.

All this complaining about complaining....

I'm sorry, I just dont get it."

my posts are actually (believe it or not) not about me being sick of complaint threads, im not sick of complaints or anything even. as i said, i don't have any issues that are bothering me or stopping me enjoying or doing what i do on LL. i am just expressing that i think they are invalid. im trying to also see how they can be validated ( i really don't see how the complaints can be valid).

i have pretty much ignored them (in terms of them 'bothering' me), my posts are based on the vibes and aftermaths.

you have unfortunately, received me the way i did not want to be received - i'm not complaining about the complaints, im just expressing how i see them as invalid. i created this topic to do so. some of the things i kind of have moaned about, are in my first post/2nd post. but in regards to people complaining, im not complaining about them. just putting my 'view' on it out there.

i mean.. im not exactly saying "guys stop moaning its ruining my fun" its more like "why are you guys moaning again? this is invalid?"

posted November 05, 2009 02:44 PM         

My point is, I think that what you're doing isnt really that different from the behaviors that you are confused about. Nobody is really saying their fun has been ruined. Mostly, they expressed their lack of understanding or appreciation of certain behaviors of other posters, and just "put it out there", as you are doing now. I may have more to say about this, but I gotta run now.

peace,
V

posted November 05, 2009 04:06 PM         

the general consensus from members about the stuff i have talked about, is that its 'annoying them'. sure everyone has a right to express their view on whats annoying them. but whats the point when its like some one saying "i hate this tv channel" - im simply thinking "whats the point of complaining about that if you don't have to even watch it?"

in reality, in any logical or rational thinking mind, it shouldn't annoy or bother them, or disrupt or make their experience of LL any different or less beneficial. as if its a reason to compare it to the old 'LL'.

compare it to some of the stuff i listed, then its reasonable to understand how its annoying (e.g. members coming into your topic and ruining it in one way or another)

p.s. i don't see how i am particularly confused, that's just an assertion.

posted November 05, 2009 04:40 PM         

quote:

---

I just reread it. I don't really agree with any of it. I can see it. I just don't agree. I can give a point by point opinion, and keep it short, but I'm not sure if that's what's being asked for.

---

No, hashing it out isn't what I had in mind I brought it up because I thought it was a nice explanation of what some might say is their underlying concern. It's a better explanation then I could offer, at any rate. It doesn't strike me as having much to do with rose colored glasses. Of course, it goes without saying that others might feel differently.

Honestly, I don't think there's much of an issue at all anymore. LL is what it is, for better or worse. T voiced a concern, I think she voiced it well and it's been taken care of.