posted February 05, 2010 03:44 PM         

capn had something to say about what has been said. so let's get out the putdowns, the orders as to how one is supposed to respond, and the invitations to stay away.

personally if i don't want to see what other people think i don't post my idea/whatever as a topic. this IS A DISCUSSION FORUM RIGHT???

godzala is what it is. i would rather a world with godzala in it even though i have been visiting about 4 times since coming to this forum, than a world where EVERYTHING DEEMED INESSENTIAL BY THE DO-GOOD LEADERS is eliminated!

where's the whimsy? the play?

and by the way there was a time when flat coke was the only thing that would relieve me of some very heavyduty stomach aches. something else might have worked but it was coke that DID.

and for the record i don't consider hard work soul crushing. it is the rationale attached to it that is either crushing or uplifting.

i think it might serve well for people to remember that what they think is RIGHT is not necessarily so for others.

posted February 05, 2010 04:38 PM         

quote:

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i think it might serve well for people to remember that what they think is RIGHT is not necessarily so for others.

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I agree. I'm not sure why this seems to be something that people argue with.

quote:

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and i do understand that things could be done differently. but i don't want to see totalitarian "cooperation" any more than i want to see totalitarian government.

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A pitfall of Aquarian ideals. Trust me, I KNOW. Fixed opinion on what's best for everyone is still a fixed opinion. NOBODY can say what is good for EVERYONE, humans are too different. It's almost like what would be proposed is raising another kind of sheep. If there were something being proposed. Seems like a lot of words though, with expectations of others to take actions and make real plans.

Just my opinion.

posted February 06, 2010 09:33 AM         

I suppose we should just let the government decide what is RIGHT, and what expectations are justified. Sure, the system we have now, in order to be maintained, requires all sorts of action from all sorts of people, but that's different. Sure, you risk starvation, imprisonment, and homelessness if you don't live according to their rules. Sure, you're likely to spend more than half of your waking hours working, and its likely to be meaningless work, but, hey, its the status quo. Don't knock it. And if you have a better idea, keep it to yourself.

Have I understood you all correctly?

It's no wonder these ideas are so unpopular. But, then, if they were more popular, I suppose, they wouldn't be so far ahead of their time.

Kat, I don't know if you have an Indian grocery around where you live, but this stuff is fantastic. It's all natural, it won't give you cancer, its the only thing that cures my stomach aches, and it works in seconds. A 1 ounce bottle will cure about 30 stomach aches. It costs less than 2 dollars.

posted February 06, 2010 11:30 AM         

The Chalice and the Blade:
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by Riane Eisler

Reviews

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The phenomenal bestseller, with more than 500,000 copies sold worldwide, now with a new epilogue from the author--The Chalice and the Blade has inspired a generation of women and men to envision a truly egalitarian society by exploring the legacy of the peaceful, goddess-worshipping cultures from our prehistoric past.

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Riane Eisler is an internationally acclaimed scholar, futurist, and activist, and is co-director of the Center for Partnership Studies in Pacific Grove, California. She is the author of Sacred Pleasure and The Partnership Way.

posted February 06, 2010 01:32 PM         

you have every right to propose a better way. but as you say what we have now takes the participation of pretty much everyone to keep it going.

i personally am not attached to factory work as a way of life. but some people are NOT interested in creating their own business and PREFER to put in hours in exchange for the money they need to do the OTHER things they want. so they contribute to "the good of all" in whatever way makes sense to THEM. that it doesn't make sense to you really doesn't matter to them!

in my book anyone who spends half their life working on someone else's dream, well that is their choice and their problem. but someone like cpn who has a good and IMPORTANT job helping people who don't have much achieve a certain level of health and wellness, well i don't consider that slavery!

what i object to is the complaint without offering of solutions. as usual. and the insinuation that everyone who is not as creative and intellectual as yourself is somehow lazy or stupid....cos it just taint so! some people have other priorities.

i have avoided the "box" for as long as i can remember. sure i have had a few "for the money" jobs but i have always found inspiration within them. they have funded my more creative/spiritual pursuits when i needed it. of course with true gift of the gab one need never work as there are countless grants, foundations and just plain investment oriented people out there who will patronize someone with a good idea and a good presentation.

anyway soon enough there will be precious little "menial" work available. that is part of what the current financial crisis is about...its not all about robber barons squeezing the serfs! the shape of industry is changing and automation has been eroding labour intensive jobs for decades. now it IS time for a change.

and funnily enough our current president appears to be aware of this and trying to set up a system that will accomodate our new expectations and needs ...

but personally i PREFER to put in a few hours in return for some cash to do it MY way, not tap into someone else's money which is accompanied by a need to RETAIN THEIR APPROVAL.

sure the system is screwed up but again, what are you planning to do about it? how do you get from here to there? and what about the people who don't want it YOUR way?

by the way stomachaches are generally easily cured by making sure you have enough enzyme action going on...

posted February 08, 2010 01:45 PM         

its a great song, don't get me wrong. but lennon was not working class - he just tried his hardest to come across that way. which says something about the motivation for this song.

in some ways, valus i agree with you. and in others with cpn! but i am very curious, what will you do if society is rearranged the way you envision it? what will light your fire then?

i ask this because you do the same thing lennon did...you interpret the life of the "peasants" from a vantage point that has nothing to do with backbreaking work or real poverty. neither of which lennon wasted even one day of his life on...

posted February 08, 2010 04:15 PM         

the english would say that is why he had such convoluted neurotic ways of looking at things while the others were much more straighforward...

that said i would have to agree that in the eyes of those who hold the big purse, we are all peasants, or even worse, UNITS to be kept in our little ruts as long as possible, and when we get REALLY big for our britches, a nice little crash or depression is a good way of sending us back to our cages for our food and shelter...

but i don't agree that the system we have is any worse than the societies valus so admires. they had their own types of repression which from our vantage point fade in comparison to what they had that we don't.

any system will develop ruts and blind spots and manipulators etc. "the price of freedom is vigilance" was a phrase i grew up with. i think it is very true, WE are the government, still technically true.

posted February 08, 2010 04:15 PM         

Regardless of Lennon's background, he was a born idealist. His rare capacity for empathy (including a Libra Sun and Pisces Moon) would have acquainted him with the struggles of the working class, whether or not he personally shared them, or grew up seeing his family share them (and torn apart by them).

Being an artist and a dreamer, and being in the right place at the right time, is what brought him success. His idealism clearly preceded, and even led to, his leisure (or "luxury"). I don't mind suggesting that psychedelics may have had a hand in bolstering his empathy and idealism as well.

quote:

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its a great song, don't get me wrong. but lennon was not working class - he just tried his hardest to come across that way. which says something about the motivation for this song

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That's a very cynical interpretation. Lennon identified with the working class, just as he identified with people from every other walk of life. He didn't have to try to appear that way -- he was that way. Perhaps it comforts you to think that only a person in your situation could ever understand your situation, and that anyone who is not in your situation and claims to understand it must be "trying to appear"? Finding it fairly easy to conceive of this sort of empathy myself, I can't help but think the primary motivations for the song are as plain as day.

Lennon had compassion for people, even if he wasn't in the same boat with them. In addition, he was enough of an artist to tell the truth, and not to flatter them. He was smart enough to see the contradictions, and not to dismiss one side of the truth in order to make the other more palatable.

He respected and admired them as heroes -- because he saw that it takes a hero just to put food on the table. At the same time, he saw them as peasants; exploited by a defective system which idolizes and promotes the greediest, most inhumane traits. This would be irony enough, but the deeper irony he saw is that so many of them don't realize their own situation, and, instead, defend (and even go to war on behalf of) the corrupt individuals, systems, and ideologies that keep them enslaved.

quote:

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i am very curious, what will you do if society is rearranged the way you envision it? what will light your fire then?

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Good question, kat. It's a dilemma which I will welcome with open arms, lol. I suppose it will be the same things that light my fire now. The difference, I suppose, is that I won't be a revolutionary, fighting just to be heard, but, a leading voice in the prevailing movement. When the culture has learned to follow this path, I'll still be one of the people leading the way. I just won't feel so alone. And it won't be such an uphill battle. But it will go on. "Eternal vigilance" and all that.

posted February 08, 2010 04:26 PM         

quote:

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but i don't agree that the system we have is any worse than the societies valus so admires.

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Do you even know what societies I most admire and desire to see us emulate? Do you even believe they existed?

"There was a period of thousands of years — much longer than the 5,000 years of what we call "recorded history" — when indeed societies lived according to a different set of values. They were not ideal societies and it wasn't perfect — you know, there is always a matter of degree. But there is no evidence that these were societies where men dominated women. There is no evidence that these were societies that were chronically at war. These were also societies that saw nature not as something to be exploited."
~ Riane Eisler

posted February 10, 2010 03:11 AM         

There were a lot of reasons for this unhappiness, and I'm not even mentioning the biggest one. Just that the men there decided they were above working, were dropping out, doing drugs, writing their manifestos and such, were "too spiritual" to work and were above all that, but simply could not do that without women to support them. That's how Granny got pulled into it, too, she was lied to about how she could have help with her kids and get away from the bad elements by going there.

But the bad elements were even worse, and she found the women had to clean up, feed, and take care of all the guys while also having their voices & wishes ignored, and told they had an attitude problem if they didn't like it. To add insult to it, if a woman didn't want to have sex when a guy did, she was an uptight ice queen who needed to loosen up, but if she wanted it when he didn't then she was clingy & needy and needed to raise her spiritual vibration and not be such a desperate **** . And so on.

Granny said one of the others told her that she felt like all she did was take care of children--the real ones and the men acting like them. The women were too busy to goof off writing manifestos to change the world.

Even my mom, who was a little girl then (she'd been 7, give or take a year) was even made to help take care of the men there, and she has zero fond memories of it.

Of course the men claimed to be selfless & spiritual and all that. I can only blame the intense drugs that the women put up with it for so long, though Granny eventually got sick of it and went back to Texas, and the commune itself collapsed a year or so later.

I know it wasn't unique because a lot of angry feminist writings from the 70s were scathing toward the hippie communes for the same reason Granny got sick of 'em and left.

I'm NOT saying Valus is like that, just I can see the type that would be really annoying in the way of saying drugs are good, work is bad, and then feel entitled to have others take care of him and yet still act all superior and holier-than-thou about it. And then be quick to see that type of person in someone who says similar things, too, whether or not it's justified.

posted February 10, 2010 03:22 AM         

The scene of 2 hippies from Summer of Love by Lisa Mason:

*******************
Broken glass. Bits of it scattered on the deck, a hole in the window. That's what Ruby sees first. Then the kitchen door cracked open like a wound.

Sweet Isis! Her heart leaps. For a moment, she feels like she's floating. Superstitions she always held about owning a gun--if you get one, you'll attract bad energy and sure as **** you'll end up having to use it--leap to mind, instantly proving their truth. She draws the Beretta, hands shaking so hard she couldn't hit the side of a barn. She swings the door open, cursing the squeak she never got around to oiling, and creeps inside.

A man bends over her turntable in the living room, plucking plugs from the wall socket. On the floor, by his feet, lies the disconnected amplifier, plus one of her speakers.

"I've got a gun!" she says. "So you can stop what you're doing right now, sonny, and turn around, nice and slow."

The man turns, Gorgon's face is a mask, deadpan, dead. A scrap of paper falls from his hand to the floor like a dry leaf.

"Leo!"

She stares. And it dawns on her: she knows that look, knows the grim purpose chiseled in crystallized flesh. She looks at his arms, but his jacket sleeves go to his wrists. She can't see his tracks. Doesn't matter. She knows. And it's terrible, like a death and a grieving. Not Gorgon, she thinks.

Uh-huh, Gorgon.

She pulls herself up all her nearly six feet. "What do you think you're doing, Leo?"

"I'm liberatin' your stereo for the revolution."

"What revolution?"

He shrugs. "You can only be free if you live outside the private property premise of this ****** country. If you participate in that, you can't change anythin'. You can't change yourself."

"What are you changing by stealing my stereo, Leo?"

He shrugs again. "The love shuck changes nothin'. We must destroy the United States of America."

"My father died for the United States of America. My father was Cherokee."

"Then he died for nothin'. He was a stupid redskin who died for a shuck."

"Don't you call my pa stupid!"

"You understand nothin' of the dialectics of liberation. You're one of the oppressors."

"Oppressors, uh-huh. I got me a business, sonny. Thanks to my ma and my pa and working hard, I got my own little piece of free enterprise. That's not oppression. That's success."

"Oh, you got yours," he says sardonically. "You got yours, Ruby A. Maverick."

Without taking her eyes off him, she stoops and retrieves the scrap of paper he dropped.

SHUCKING THE REVOLUTION. YOU WILL PAY, CAPITALIST PIG. BE ADVISED.

"You!" Her head suddenly throbs in syncopation to the pounding of her heart. "Taking me to bed, and messing with my head." She is too disgusted to summon outrage. "Why?"

"Why? Because you are. You are a capitalist pig, with your kraut car an' your metaphysics shuck an' your bank account."

"I'm putting up a runaway and a tourist in my home for free. I'm feeding people, I donate to the Free Clinic, I--"

"F*** your charity. You're not changin' things with your charity, man. You say you're not Standard Oil, but you're wrong. I've seen your trip with my own eyes, that's why. You're no different, that's why. When the revolution comes, I'll be after you with a gun." He grins. "You'll be the first one I off."

She's speechless for one of the rare moments of her life. Her head spins. She thinks of Chiron and his self-righteous cosmicists with their domes and gardens, their sky-seeding and telespace. Their anger at the past.

Do the Leo Gorgons of the world tear down the system for the good of the people? In 1967? By 2467?

No. Somewhere, in between all these polarities, there has got to be a New Explanation. Do the cosmicist possess it? Maybe, maybe not. But they're still searching for new values after five hundred years.

She shakes with fury. "Right now, I got the gun, and your revolution is a shuck, Leo Gorgon. Get out of my house."

He eyes the gun, eyes her. Can he take it from her, will he try? But no, he's got the shakes. Sweat bands on his forehead. From his habit, not from his fear.

He goes, banging the back door.

She stands, stunned, in her shadowed living room. Her cats slide out of the shadows where they've been hiding and wrap themselves around her ankles.

posted February 10, 2010 09:59 PM         

Well, there were a lot of experiments conducted in the 60's. We're lucky to have them to learn from. You have to remember that we are talking about the first encounter between psychedelics and a dominator culture. Do you know that the slave trade made its reappearance in Western Civilization when sugar was discovered and suddenly in high demand? We're talking about substances which our people have had almost no history with for the past two thousand years, and the history we did have was burned and supressed. It's no surprise to me that many people reacted as they did and abused the medicines as they did. While it may sound cold on a personal level, we have to consider it in the light of millenia, -- this is part of our evolution. Terrible as they are, they are mere growing pains to an adolescent civilization. The most profound scripture can be used to justify all manner of evil and foolishness, but that is no argument against the most profound scripture. Rather, the scripture proves to be a kind of litmus test of the wisdom of an individual. Fools will make use of the words of the wise to start cults, to drink poisoned Kool-aid, etc. It's been this way long before psychedelics came into the picture. Shall we outlaw the words of the wise? Shall we outlaw the sacred allies of the wise? You raise important concerns. I am not unaware of them.