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Author Topic:   Temple Grandin - The World Needs All Kinds Of Minds
Valus
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posted March 03, 2010 11:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fn_9f5x0f1Q
http://www.ted.com

Autism activist Temple Grandin talks about how her mind works -- sharing her ability to "think in pictures," which helps her solve problems that neurotypical brains might miss. She makes the case that the world needs people on the autism spectrum: visual thinkers, pattern thinkers, verbal thinkers, and all kinds of smart geeky kids.

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Valus
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posted March 03, 2010 12:07 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message
TEDTalks is a daily video podcast of the best talks and performances from the TED Conference, where the world's leading thinkers and doers give the talk of their lives in 18 minutes.

Featured speakers have included Al Gore on climate change, Philippe Starck on design, Jill Bolte Taylor on observing her own stroke, Nicholas Negroponte on One Laptop per Child, Jane Goodall on chimpanzees, Bill Gates on malaria and mosquitoes, Pattie Maes on the "Sixth Sense" wearable tech, and "Lost" producer JJ Abrams on the allure of mystery.

TED stands for Technology, Entertainment, Design, and TEDTalks cover these topics as well as science, business, development and the arts. Closed captions and translated subtitles in a variety of languages are now available on TED.com, at http://www.ted.com/translate.

Watch a highlight reel of the Top 10 TEDTalks at http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/top10

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AcousticGod
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posted March 03, 2010 12:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
Oh man...another thing to get around to checking out. These seem to be stacking up in my life.

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Valus
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posted March 03, 2010 02:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message
Do Schools Kill Creativity? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9CE55wbtY

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katatonic
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posted March 03, 2010 02:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
well, einstein thought so! as have a high percentage of the world's geniuses...however MOST of them actually survived the ordeal with their genius intact. so what makes the real difference? were they more creative to begin with or was it a quirk of the personality that enabled them to keep their creative powers DESPITE school?

just reading buckminster fuller, who believes kids are better off learning from tv if you can filter out the ads and brainwashing junk....though he thinks this is a fairly recent development...einstein left school at 15 after staring out the window for years and that was NOT recent!

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Glaucus
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posted March 03, 2010 03:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
Yep

I read about Temple Grandin. I mentioned about her quite a few times in regards to how many autistics are highly intelligent. She doesn't have Aspergers either. I read about people writing that about her. Aspergers is a milder form of Autistic Spectrum without speech delays. Temple Grandin had speech delays. When she was little kid, she couldn't speak. She would scream and hum to communicate. She was recommended to be institutionalized.


as a little child with my severe Dyslexia,Dyspraxia, I resembled somebody with autism too. Like her, I developed my language skills through speech therapy.

Like her, I think mainly in pictures. As a little child, my thoughts were all pictures.

As a person with autism, her visual,picture thinking abilities are a lot stronger than mine because she has the abilities of the extreme paying attention to detail and rote memorization strengths which I lack.

I can't stress enough the importance of early intervention for neurodivergent conditions.


God Bless Neurodiversity!


Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

- Eckhart Tolle

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Glaucus
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posted March 03, 2010 03:44 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
In regards to schools killing creativity.

Schools use to be all about mentoring, one-on-on interaction
between the student and teaching,adapting to the student's learning style. There
were no grades which were based on factory systems. They were pass/fail.
Mainstream schools involve auditory lecturing teaching, but it is only suitable
for less than 40 percent of students in the regular classroom. If schools were
like the schools before the 1800, the diagnoses of learning disabled,ADHD as
well as the dropout rate would be considerably smaller. To address the students
that are truly learning disabled (or should I say learning differenced),there
are special education therapies that can address those things like auditory
therapy,speech therapy,motor skills therapy. That's what special education
programs are for. They are not just for children that are mentally retarded.

but if teachers were adapting to their student's learning styles and needs, then
there probably wouldn't be any need for special education for neurodivergents
any way.

I am Dyslexic,Dyspraxic,ADHDer that was in the special education system which
was a mixed blessing. I got the early intervention,but I got the negative
stigma of being thought as mentally retarded by normal school children. I did
get misplaced with the mentally retarded in 1st grade. I started off as a
kindergarten regular student that have difficulty in school, and so they thought
I was mentally retarded.

If schools were like how they were before William Farish changed things, many
people would not have been misplaced with the mentally retarded nor been in any
special education class, and there wouldn't even need to be diagnoses like
Dyslexia,Dyspraxia,ADHD,and other neurodivergences which I believe social
construct labels based on being very different from the norms of society. Many
people wouldn't have been viewed as being disordered.

I was an excellent swimmer since the age of 3. I walked home from school when I was in kindergarten. When I was 6 years old, I was asked about what I want for
Christmas,and I responded "I want a bank" I wanted some money! hahahahhaha
Therefore, there were already clues that I wasn't mentally retarded when I was a
kid if people understood me.

Have Multisensory teaching methods as primary teaching method in schools for one thing.
That's practical,common sense. Not all students learn the same. Why can't people get that? They obviously don't. Too much damned emphasis on auditory sequential teaching methods in the schools.


it would also include that multisensory teaching methods to teach students how to read and not just whole language.


A child with Dyslexia doesn't fit in either of the modes of learning style for whole language nor learning style for phonics. A child with Dyslexia probably has the overall learning style that thrives in a whole language classroom, but he/she won't absorb the tools and strategies needed for merely reading through exposure. On the other hand, the sequential teaching of phonics is geared to his/her weakest learning pathway.

Students learn best when they are taught with programs that use both phonics and whole language. Students taught only phonics tend to have better decoding skills, but weaker comprehension skills. Students taught with whole language tend to have stronger comprehension skills, but weaker decoding skills. The child needs more than phonics or whole language. He/she needs to be taught on how word sounds, how it looks, and what it means. He/she needs practice to develop reading automaticity and fluency. And he needs strategies to support comprehension,build motivation,and to keep him engaged.

If schools did that, then the amount of special education students would be considerably decreased by around 50 percent here in USA.


The following stuff is about here in USA.

Current studies indicate that one-half of all the
students who qualify for special
education are classified as having a learning disability (LD) (6-7%).
About 85% of those LD students
have a primary learning disability in reading and language processing. http://www.interdys.org/ewebeditpro5/upload/Dyslexia_Basics_FS_-_final_81407.pdf


BTW...Unlike the United Kingdom, Learning Disability is a term reserved for people with at least average intelligence that have problems processing information here in USA. I am well aware that Learning Disability is a term reserved for the intellectually handicapped in United Kingdom.
I wanted to clarify to avoid confusion and misunderstanding. That's why I stopped using the term, learning disabled and use the word, learning difference or neurodivergent.

the education system has been broken a long time ago. It failed Thomas Edison. He had to be homeschooled by his mother who was a teacher.

like Ron Davis said neurodivergent child suffer from DysTeachia.


There are schools like Montessori and Waldorf that have multisensory teaching methods and even nourish artistic,creative,inventive abilities.

I also wonder if there be a choice to not be involved in academics and let people do a trading school curriculum in high school after learning basic academic skills.

I want my future nonprofit neurodiversity organization to push for education reform here in USA. It's strongly needed.


Raymond


------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

- Eckhart Tolle

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katatonic
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posted March 03, 2010 04:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
glaucus you should check out john holt and john gatto...both of them longtime teachers and reformers...gatto stayed in the school system because the kids he taught (in the east bronx in nyc, one of the worse ghettos in our grand country) were no way going to be homeschooling. he invented the term "dumbing us down" by the way...

john holt, starting as a teacher, then an "educator" (ie planner of school approaches) then inspector, finally gave up on reforming schools and started telling people to take their kids OUT! and from encouraging "homeschooling" he moved on to what he called "unschooling" - undoing the damage inflicted by our education system!

but as i mentioned, many geniuses managed SOMEHOW to keep all their intelligence intact despite school. they seem to have learned what did NOT constitute "learning" thru their incarcerated years...and many more became rebels.

a friend of mine had a teacher ask him if he had considered his daughter might be ADD and his reply was "no, she's not ADD she is just BORED!!" while i realize ADD is something real, i have never been able to see it as a "disability" of any kind, just a difference!!

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AcousticGod
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posted March 03, 2010 04:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message
I don't think schools can kill creativity. I think creativity is too ingrained in our DNA.

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Glaucus
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posted March 03, 2010 05:04 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Glaucus     Edit/Delete Message
Well...when I have children, I am not going let them get labeled. If I see that they are like me and their mother (if I end up marrying a neurodivergent woman), I am just going to address their issues. They're going to get early intervention whether it's auditory integration therapy,speech therapy,occupational therapy,or other things. That will be during the pre-school years. Delays in speech,delays in motor skills are early warning signs of neurodivergence Of course, the biggest warning sign of all is a close relative that has a neurodivergence.


Then I am going to have them go to a Montessori School or a Waldorf School.
I also will homeschool them.

I will make sure that they get good nutrition including especially the Omega 3 fatty acids DHA.


They are not going to go through what I went through. I will make sure of that. I am not going to let my kid be labeled in any way,thrown in a special ed class, nor drugged on medications like Ritalin.

I will do everything that I can to keep their self esteem intact.

Raymond

------------------
"Nothing matters absolutely;
the truth is it only matters relatively"

- Eckhart Tolle

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Valus
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posted March 03, 2010 06:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message

katatonic,

quote:
however MOST of them actually survived the ordeal with their genius intact

Most of whom?

Are you even counting the ones who didn't survive?

How can you even number them?
Aren't they the nameless?

The ones, for the most part,
forgotten to history?

Who received recognition, if at all,
only from their peers, and a handful of friends?

And shouldn't we take the word of a genius, --
Ginsberg, for instance, -- when he tells us:

"I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by
madness, starving hysterical naked,
dragging themselves through the negro streets at dawn
looking for an angry fix,
angelheaded hipsters burning for the ancient heavenly
connection to the starry dynamo in the machin-
ery of night,
who poverty and tatters and hollow-eyed and high sat
up smoking in the supernatural darkness of
cold-water flats floating across the tops of cities
contemplating jazz,
who bared their brains to Heaven under the El and
saw Mohammedan angels staggering on tene-
ment roofs illuminated,
who passed through universities with radiant cool eyes
hallucinating Arkansas and Blake-light tragedy
among the scholars of war,
who were expelled from the academies for crazy &
publishing obscene odes on the windows of the
skull,
who cowered in unshaven rooms in underwear, burn-
ing their money in wastebaskets and listening
to the Terror through the wall,
who got busted in their pubic beards returning through
Laredo with a belt of marijuana for New York,
who ate fire in paint hotels or drank turpentine in
Paradise Alley, death, or purgatoried their
torsos night after night
with dreams, with drugs, with waking nightmares, al-
cohol and **** and endless balls,
incomparable blind; streets of shuddering cloud and
lightning in the mind..."

and so on?

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Valus
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posted March 03, 2010 06:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message

Glaucus

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Valus
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posted March 03, 2010 06:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message

AG,

It can't be killed,
but it can be abused,
degraded, subjugated, etc.

Or, if it can be killed,
let's say that it will resurrect itself,
and not necessarily in a gentler form.

We cannot devalue something as
powerful as creativity, or diversity,
without repressing it; and what we repress
is never destroyed, but always returns to us;
in the sun, or in the shade, it will have its day.

Personally, I want to be on the side of the arts,
when it comes to establishing values, for our culture,
and for the children who'll interpret, and be interpreted by, it.

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katatonic
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posted March 04, 2010 02:47 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
i am not a fan of ginsberg. i am a fan of home-or-un-schooling...but it is not the school's fault there are so many of us, nor that our parents teach us to "toe the line" ETC...nor that we buy into the fact that we are too puny to chart our own course.

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Valus
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posted March 05, 2010 12:22 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message

The notion that free will is near omnipotent is fostered by dominator culture ideals. It promotes neglect for one's neighbor, and a blaise attitude toward the government. Totalitarian regimes love it when you make a big deal out of free will, and blame individuals for their conditions, because then you're overlooking the influence and power of the culture, and, ultimately, the state. What these videos illustrate is how narrowly our culture defines success and how readily it labels weak, sick, or immoral, anyone who doesn't fit the cultural mold. There are a lot of people who are ready to understand this, to widen the circle of their sympathies, and consider possibilities which they never could before. It's a beautiful thing.

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shura
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posted March 05, 2010 10:52 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for shura     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
but it is not the school's fault there are so many of us, nor that our parents teah us to "toe the line" ETC...nor that we buy into the fact that we are too puny to chart our own course.

Kat, you don't believe the education system is a contributing factor?

Talk about factories

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Valus
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posted March 05, 2010 12:06 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message

That's a good point.

These are "factory schools".

They know what they want to produce --
essentially, unquestioning consumers
and faithful defenders of the status quo --
and they're organized so as to empower
the people who "take direction well",
and to disempower free-thinkers.

The emphasis is on obedience, busywork,
and learning empty facts by rote, --
not the facts that inspire you and
correspond to your purpose in the world,
but selective facts (and often distortions)
which the system "feels" you need to learn.

Our culture is hell-bent on producing garbage,
and, in order to do that, it needs to snatch kids up
and subject them to hours, days, weeks, and years of
conditioning to fill the roles predestined for them.

It keeps them busy memorizing, and not questioning, what they hear,
learning how to obey, rather than develop, the voice of authority,
so that when the call to war finally comes, they'll be ready.

If they don't take to the bit, they're told they're sick
and drugged into compliance with the materialist vision.

We'd all like to think every individual, and every child,
can become deeply aware of this, and, against all odds,
carve out a destiny not dictated by materialistic expectations.

But the reality is, not one of us has managed to become aware of
the full extent to which our culture has conditioned and biased us.

In order not to be overwhelmed by our conditioning,
we have all, to some extent, internalized it, and we still fight
for the very powers we believe we are fighting against.

Not one of us has found a way to win this war;
a mere handful of us have even found ways to fight it.

And fighting is not winning.
Not the winning that counts,
at least, in this world.

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katatonic
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posted March 05, 2010 03:21 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
as i said i am a fan of home- or un-schooling. even "good" private schools have serious drawbacks, as john gatto and john holt have pointed out eloquently.

"What these videos illustrate is how narrowly our culture defines success and how readily it labels weak, sick, or immoral, anyone who doesn't fit the cultural mold"

valus have you read buckminster fuller? i recommend highly his "critical path" especially the chapter titled "self-disciplines" where he lays down his plan for leading a self-directed life...and i don't mean a life that ignores the needs of others. quite the contrary but way too long and intricate to recap effectively..but fuller lived COMPLETELY outside the box and succeeded in pretty much every way. DESPITE the wellmeaning advice of his insidebox friends and relatives.

and no i am not saying that schools ENCOURAGE creativity. but to illustrate what i AM saying, let me backtrack to when my child was in the english equiv of 2nd grade:

one day we were walking home from school as a neighbour/classmate + mom were walking back too. the mom was complaining that the school was not teaching her kids to read. the oldest was in my girl's class and the youngest a year younger, so they were 7 and 6.

like my parents i had been reading to my daughter since infancy, and had a houseful of books. this woman had a)a husband whose first language was foreign and b) NO BOOKS in her house.

my daughter was reading BEFORE she got to school, so i had no problem with the school's reading program. this woman not only did not read herself but did not encourage her kids to do so and expected the school to do it for her.

my point is not that schools are hotbeds of creativity or even individuality. but that
parents can give their kids the incentive and preparation that negate a lot of the dumbing down inherent in the school system...and yes society as awhole is constructed so as to dumb the "little people" down but even the most ignorant immigrant or minority parents can contribute to the breakdown of that construct.

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Valus
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posted March 05, 2010 06:32 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message

kat,

Not everybody is buckminster fuller. We can learn from exceptional cases without using them as examples of what everyone can do. That's unrealistic. For every Buckminster Fuller, who has all the gifts and/or all the support and/or all the luck necessary to succeed, more or less "on his own terms", in a dominator society -- for every one of those, there may be thousands, if not millions, of others, perhaps no less deserving, whose individual contributions we will never hear of. Unfortuneately, only cases reported by history can be cited, while the very aparatus we wish to question is that which determines, in large part, the historical significance of individuals.

Obviously, there's no single factor which determines whether or not a person will be happy, or if they will reach their full potential, or whatever the standard is. Many things contribute. A kid who has a good solid family structure to support them, whose parents take an interest, and are motivated to take part in his/her life, will be less vulnerable to the negative influence of poor schooling. Likewise, he/she will have to rely less on internal strengths or perceived strengths; qualities temporarily valued by the culture, which may or may not be objective strengths. A kid whose parents are less responsible will have to be stronger, or to receive some support from a friend or a teacher.

So many factors come into play. And there are many good points you can make. But schools are HUGE. The need for teachers to understand diversity is huge. Parents need to understand it, kids need to understand each other and themselves.. It's not about "buckling down" or "coming together" and "finding a way" to meet the establishment's present expectations. It's about asking questions, and changing those expectations and values from the foundations. Should parents take more responsibility for their children's education? Yes. Should they have to? No. Because that's why we have schools, and teachers, in the first place. And don't just teach the kids, talk to them. Ask them what they want to learn, and what they have to say. We might be surprised at the directions they take us, or, rather, their own lives, in.


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katatonic
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posted March 05, 2010 08:19 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
i hear you, valus. and i don't disagree that schools are a microcosmic hell! what i am trying to say is that everybody CAN be buckminster fuller. (well not really, everyone can be themSELVES!) in fact he himself said the same, and he also attributed the dumbing down of the general population to the "dominator society" as you do... though in different words. but he too grew up in a dominator society and learned by his own wits how to step outside it. plenty of "advantaged" people only learned how to be a better trickster, lawyer or "dominator" - with the same background as he had.

i am not arguing for the system!! i am saying that if we wait till we change the system it will be too late!! we have to do what we can to BUCK the system...

and the first port of call for all kids is their parents. that said it only takes ONE good teacher (and there are actually many out there) to reach a child EVEN WITHIN the system, to turn them around, EVEN if the parents are USELESS. and some of the best teachers are in the worst schools, because they are the ones with enough dedication to stick it out. for some kids schools are an outlet that frees them from the acceptance of slavery their parents model!

personally i don't think schools are necessary at all. but a child learns more in its FIRST FOUR YEARS than during the rest of its life! and most of those four years are NOT spent in school. parents CAN teach their kids HOW to learn and then school is less of an albatross.

but if the parents spend their evenings in front of a tv drinking beer (or smoking pot for that matter) to FORGET their little lives, or yelling at their kids to conform to the (dominator) parents wishes - instead of doing something about the little life and preparing their kids for something better, there is no point expecting the schools to do anything for the kids either.

its handy to feel victimized, that the odds are stacked against us. but not very helpful.

one of bucky's "self-disciplines" was never to rail at the established way of doing things, in fact never to explain how things could be better UNLESS ASKED, but to show by what he created that things COULD be done better...and man, did people ask! he made a large part of his living talking to people who ASKED him to.

i guess all i'm trying to say is that while schools are not there to ENCOURAGE creativity, even the poorest(in terms of life satisfaction) of parents can do a great deal to immunize their children against the system. but if they spend their time feeling as if the odds are against them they will just keep going down the same old road.

and before i disintegrate into a puddle of virtual drool ... i also think it is a mistake to think that "nameless" equals "little". genius does not need recognition to thrive.

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Valus
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posted March 06, 2010 11:53 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Valus     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
plenty of "advantaged" people only learned how to be a better trickster, lawyer or "dominator" - with the same background as he had.

What this suggests to me is that those people were not at all "advantaged" in the ways that matter. But the ones who particularly interest me are the ones who did not embrace dominator ideals, and consequently found themselves on the margins and at the mercy of a society dependent on those ideals. I think its great that you are so positive, but the temptation there is to use optimism as an excuse to ignore the less encouraging data -- that is, 99% of the cases that exist in reality.

You can say that a true genius doesn't need recognition. That's a pretty thought, and I think it is true in many cases, but not all, and probably not most. The problem is that a genius is rarely just "unrecognized" -- either his genius is recognized, and he is understood and celebrated, or, it is not recognized, and he is misunderstood and mistreated. Maybe you've heard me give this quote from Antonin Artaud before: "There is, in every madman, a misunderstood genius, whose idea, shining in his head, frightened people, and for whom delirium was the only solution to the strangulation that life had prepared for him." Artaud's is an interesting story. Gerard de Nerval's is more interesting still.

Nobody is arguing that we should not do what we can. I'm not sure why you seem to think that's a point which needs to be made. Recognizing and analyzing what's wrong is part of finding and implementing solutions. Nobody is taking a defeatist position. Nobody has laid down to die.

Sometimes, yes, it takes one teacher who cares. But sometimes caring is not enough. Sometimes it takes a teacher who can see deeply and understand. Sometimes it just takes a teacher who's Moon trines the kid's Sun, or something like that (you could say the same about parents). But sometimes it takes a network of things. And, for the best possible results, it definitely takes a network of things; good family, good teachers, individualism, talent, intelligence, courage, etc.

Kids do learn the most in the early years, and that is a good point. We have to be careful not to over-parent them. But give them time and space to develop naturally. I think the most important things a child can learn in those first four years are how to be silent, how to be still, and how to figure things out. With the best intentions, and eager to do all that they can, parents often do too much. They help too much and explain too much, and the children never learn how to figure things out on their own. The children learn, essentially, to be dependent, and to look to others to tell them what's going on or how something works.

Nonetheless, a child who comes from the sanest household, may be all the more dumbstruck at the madness he/she encounters in the public or private school. This madness, which many only begin to suspect when they enter adolescence, is something all intelligent and sensitive people must come to terms with. Perhaps many children are "protected" from the truth during their most impressionable years, by parents who are too ignorant to know what the truth is, and too stupid to articulate it, even if they did.

I'm less worried about the parents who relax and unwind with their kids (and with the t.v., the beer, or the herb), than I am about the parents who are always working. Growing up, I remember what a comfort it was when my folks would get home before 7, 8, or 9 o'clock. I didn't need intensive care, oversight, or discipline, from them, nearly as much as I needed their presence. It was inexplicable to me that, while my family had more money than most of my friends' families, my parents still worked later hours. I'm grateful for the creature comforts that kind of homelife afforded me, but I think it would have meant more to me to have at least one of my parents around when I got home from school, or, at least, before 7, 8, or 9 o'clock. I knew moms and dads who were less hardworking than mine. They were less polished, less well-mannered, perhaps, but also less affected. They were comfortable being themselves, and they were comfortable around their kids. Some of them smoked pot, and even smoked with their kids when they became teenagers. I'm not saying it was the best influence, but it was amazing to me, to see these parents relaxing and laughing and smoking a joint with their kids and their kids' friends. My folks would never have done that, and probably never will. Our relationship was loving, but it was also very business-like. I remember, my dad shared a few sips of a beer with me when I was twelve... but he won't share a few puffs of a joint with me when I'm in my thirties. Something about that seems strange to me.

I don't think its handy to feel victimized, kat, and I resent your implication. It would be handy not to be victimized, and it would be handy if our victimization were acknowledged, rather than denied and stigmatized, but it's not handy to feel victimized. At least, nowhere near as handy as it must be to feel superior to people who feel victimized.

Bucky's ways are interesting, and I'm glad he speaks to you. I think, as the title of this thread proclaims, there are many kinds of minds that are needed. He is a fine example of one of them.

quote:
i also think it is a mistake to think that "nameless" equals "little".

Yes, it is. Were you guilty of it?

quote:
genius does not need recognition to thrive.

Genius may thrive, even while the genius languishes. But there are various types of genius, and various types of geniuses. Many creative types are performers, and literally drink in the applause from an audience. For them, sharing their gifts with the community, and seeing those gifts recognized and embraced for the good and true things they are, cannot be separated from the processes of inspiration and creation. If they fail to bring recognition to their work, it is as if they had failed to create it. I can understand this, and I don't judge it.

Even the greatest geniuses doubt themselves, and receive encouragement, even nourishment for their gifts, from the ones who believe in them. After all, geniuses are human too. Many of them will be convinced of the unique character of their mind, and the lasting value of their contributions, even while they tinker away in obscurity. I know that I am often happy, and could be very happy never receiving the credit which my work is due, if only I did not receive, instead, much aggravation and criticism which is not my due. At times, I admit, it does pain me that my work is not yet widely distributed and appreciated. But that is not nearly as selfish a pain as you might think.

Rather, it is the nature of genius (and outer-planetary types in general) to be identified with the impersonal; with Spirit, Love, and Truth, not for one's own sake, but for the sake of Spirit, Love, and Truth, and for everyone. For this reason, it makes perfect sense to find that many creative types are not content to create in obscurity. While the act of creation can be intensely personal, all true art contains an element of the impersonal; it is, ultimately, the artist's way to partake in the common life of humanity.

If a great singer can be content to sing in the shower, it is because there, at least, an audience of one is listening. Even if the only ear is her own, that can be enough. And not because she has no need to touch the rest of humanity, but, because she herself is a representative of that human family with which she is deeply, emotionally connected. She enjoys her art impersonally; not because it is her own, but, because it is her art.

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katatonic
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Posts: 3204
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posted March 06, 2010 05:59 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for katatonic     Edit/Delete Message
i agree with most your points. the reason i made the remark about namelessness is because you seemed to be equating it with failure, which i don't...

and the reason i used buckminster as an example is because for the first 30 years of his life he describes himself as following the dictates and opinions of others as to what he should do...and apart from when he was in the navy, when what counted was HOW YOU DID THE JOB, he was a total failure in the eyes of the general public and most of his friends and family. it wasn't until he threw the whole paradigm out and decided to follow his own lights that he started to succeed in any worldly way; and his life was a long experiment in which he observed himself as subject to see if his hypothesis would work...that as long as what he did was for the good of all and would support the evolutionary impulse of the universe, he would be afforded the means to do so.

he started that experiment penniless, with a wife and child and no support from anyone. he refused to use managers, promoters or any of the "tools" many use to get their work known. and WAS WILLING TO WAIT UNTIL THE PUBLIC CAUGHT UP WItH hiM, which in many cases took 50 years!

so i guess i chose him because he didn't try to tear anything down, but to improve things, being secure in his belief that when the need was obvious to the public they would come to him and his inventions...

i have no love for our school system. but i think it is a mistake to think that ANY school system works much better. but if you look at them as places to get the "3 r's" under your belt and hang with your peers, it can be very good for those things. also for learning that their are curmudgeons and powerseekers everywhere.

and i don't know how you can erase those from society without draconian measures that would ultimately collapse under their own weight. so i choose the path of doing my own thing and making my own contributions.

you are right that someone with my attitude might never see recognition, or financial reward, or social status, for what i do...but much of THOSE are byproducts of the "dominator" society which a huge portion of the human race really don't give diddlysquat about!

i guess it boils down again to, instead of enumerating the problems, find some arena in which to put forward your solutions and "if you build it they will come" which is now a cliche but i have found to be true in real life...

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shura
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Posts: 211
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posted March 06, 2010 07:26 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shura     Edit/Delete Message
quote:
They know what they want to produce --
essentially, unquestioning consumers
and faithful defenders of the status quo --
and they're organized so as to empower
the people who "take direction well",
and to disempower free-thinkers.

The emphasis is on obedience, busywork,
and learning empty facts by rote, --
not the facts that inspire you and
correspond to your purpose in the world,
but selective facts (and often distortions)
which the system "feels" you need to learn.

Our culture is hell-bent on producing garbage,
and, in order to do that, it needs to snatch kids up
and subject them to hours, days, weeks, and years of
conditioning to fill the roles predestined for them.

...



My God, valus.

I think we might have finally stumbled upon a topic wherein we are in full agreement.

Holy hell!


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koiflower
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From: Australia
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posted March 07, 2010 02:17 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for koiflower     Edit/Delete Message
I admire Temple Grandin.

I feel uneasy reading how school is bagged in forums.

What is the alternative?

Most people, educated and uneducated, know that doing your best in school can make a difference to your destiny. And I don't mean getting all A's or B's - I mean just "trying your best". That's the measure of a character that appreciates all that a humble life has to offer.

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Dervish
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Posts: 497
From:
Registered: May 2009

posted March 07, 2010 02:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Dervish     Edit/Delete Message
Lots of alternatives exist.

But as for "trying your best," take out "in school" and it's still true...possibly even more true.

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