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Author
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Topic: Do You Judge The Nazis?
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Valus
Knowflake Posts: 1234
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 07, 2009 09:42 PM
 
There was once a culture on the planet that condoned the imprisonment and extermination of Jews and other alleged undesirables. Would we be self-righteous to take a moral position against an entire culture, or do we have reason to say, uncompromisingly, that this was wrong? If you were debating a Nazi, what sort of language would you use? Would you say, "Far be it from me to make you feel judged, or to tell you what to do, but its just my opinion that killing small children is wrong. Well, maybe not wrong, but, its something I personally choose not to do. But, please, don't let me stop you or make you feel bad for the choices you make." Or would we perhaps speak in a more severe, confident and uncompromising tone? I'm interested in your responses.How would you talk to a Nazi? What would you say?
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Node
Knowflake Posts: 196
From: Nov. 11 2005
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 07, 2009 10:01 PM
Does any reasonable person take a "moral position against an entire culture"?IP: Logged |
lechien
Knowflake Posts: 287
From: i live in a kitchen
Registered: May 2009
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posted September 07, 2009 10:06 PM
don't forget to ask Germans the question.IP: Logged |
Xodian
Moderator Posts: 130
From: Canada
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 07, 2009 10:20 PM
I am more interested in the route you are willing to take this conversation to Mr. Valus  . Either you wanted your intentions broadcasted out loud or you just aren't very suddle Lol!Before we begin the given debate, I'll openly admit that I am a Speciest. Yes I do and always will value humans or any other being examplifying human intelligence and artistic ability over other animals. If I have to see to it that livestock is slaughtered to maintain human health at its prime then I will do it. Keeping that in mind, the Nazis committed unspeakable attrocities against other humans. They did not choose to value their own on the grounds of nothing more then race while it was clear that the given people they were slaughtering were as capable as they were yet they compared them to the likes of... You guessed it... Animals . So if they are so willing to treat equally capable human beings as dirt, well... They deserve no better. IP: Logged |
Valus
Knowflake Posts: 1234
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 07, 2009 10:44 PM
Node, Good question. A better question would be, if we take a moral position against an action condoned by an entire culture, is that the same thing as taking a moral position against an entire culture? lechien, Indeed. Xodian, Thank you for answering the question. Clearly, there are circumstances under which you see it as morally justifiable, even recommendable, to judge.
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Valus
Knowflake Posts: 1234
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 07, 2009 10:44 PM
The Case For An
Animal Bill Of Rights
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJRdi3m7fZQ IP: Logged |
Node
Knowflake Posts: 196
From: Nov. 11 2005
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 07, 2009 10:46 PM
Steve put the weed down! It's Node
edit--- OP says Mean and stupid? I guess I had more important things ...  <- see this
Who says I'm not Vegan? Hummm? IP: Logged |
katatonic
Knowflake Posts: 1614
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 07, 2009 10:57 PM
how would i talk to a nazi? VERY carefully, especially in germany in the 1930's! like the resistance did...
"Young souls get angry at others.
Old souls get angry at themselves. But really wise souls have already turned the page. Got forever and ever?" IP: Logged |
Valus
Knowflake Posts: 1234
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 07, 2009 11:12 PM
A simple mistake, Node. I have my mind on more important things, in case you havent noticed. And what a mean and stupid thing to say. Get your priorities straight. Put the porkchop down.  IP: Logged |
Valus
Knowflake Posts: 1234
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 07, 2009 11:15 PM
kat,To speak for those who have no voice... To defend the rights of those who cannot defend themselves... To spread the truth, no matter how unpopular or unsettling to convention... What could be a better definition of the behavior of a wise and evolved soul?
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Cheshire Kat
Knowflake Posts: 339
From: Wonderland
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 07, 2009 11:31 PM
*sighs* I wish a Vegan would just admit they do just as much harm to the animal kingdom as a Meat Eater..Im not for or against Vegans..Im not taking the side of Meat Eaters either.. I am just tired of people fighting over this Vegan vs. Meat Eaters..both parties are full of so much BS...that I am amazed they do not shake hands and make up.. Humans regardless if you like to scarf down a steak or eat raw vegetables out in some wilderness are always going to impose some harm to to an animal. We shouldn't have to beat ourselves up over it and argue about who is right or who is wrong.. As Humans we all do wrong to the animal kingdom.. Either we are slaughtering them, taking their homes, or eating off their food source..in some way we are committing a crime towards an animal. Honestly when you eat a carrot and then cut off and waste the stem end..their could of been some starving animal out there that could have eaten the whole thing for you. Think of the way people who grow and fence their organic farms to keep out the "greedy" animal..who only wanted a nibble.. Was it too much for the farmer to share what he/she had with an animal? Don't say "Hey there is plenty of wilderness for the animals.." and sweeten the blow for them..as we over populate the planet and thus run the them out of their homes and take it upon ourselves to devour most of their food source.. Don't say "Hey we can always replant.." there are no garuntees that everything that is planted will grow..what then? Don't say.."They can survive off grass.." are we that selfish to think that because we harvest and control plants that they entirely belong to us and that we just throw the "grass" defense to feel justified in our selfishness?.. Does anyone ever think of animals..REALLY..does anyone ever think of them? I don't..Im not ashamed to say..I don't think of them..when I eat them..when I fence my cucumbers and tomatoes..when a new house for a family is built... I don't think of them at all.. I am selfish..I am Human.. IP: Logged |
BornUnderDioscuri
Moderator Posts: 43
From:
Registered: Jun 2009
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posted September 08, 2009 01:05 AM
LOLZ @ Xodian's speciest! I like how a discussion about Nazis suddenly gets into animal rights. While I fully support animal rights and think that cruel and abusive treatment of animals needs to be stopped it is a little far to say that eating animals is abuse...wouldn't it be abuse if you ripped that gazelle out of a tiger's or a lion's mouth? If that is a part of their food would you force veganism upon them? And would that not in itself be animal cruelty? Extremism of all kinds is cruelty...now leave me to my hamburger IP: Logged |
Xodian
Moderator Posts: 130
From: Canada
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 08, 2009 01:28 AM
quote:
I like how a discussion about Nazis suddenly gets into animal rights.
I kinda find it ironic since Hitler was a Vegitarian Lol! IP: Logged |
lionseye***
Knowflake Posts: 183
From: edmonton, ab. ca
Registered: May 2009
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posted September 08, 2009 02:38 AM
I would say "you know what? you could have just as easily been born Jewish...or Black..or Asian...you just so happen to be born white...and what did you have to do with it?..Wait till your next life, buddy. Karma is a ***** !
And if I was there, forced to serve in the Nazi Army....I guess I would do everthing I could to perform my duties without killing anyone, and pray for someone more powerful than me to save them.. Prayer is powerful...then again, maybe I would just shoot to kill, and live to regret it..... I don't know. Who am I to judge? IP: Logged |
Dervish
Knowflake Posts: 245
From:
Registered: May 2009
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posted September 08, 2009 02:46 AM
The Manson killers were also vegetarians and cared about animal rights. So was Pol Pot. Actually, it disturbs me how often cults, especially dangerous ones, promote vegetarianism, if not outright veganism. I suppose it helps make cult members more docile and less resistant due to less energy, and maybe it does something to the brain. But I don't really know. All I do know is that veganism doesn't make one especially "compassionate." And speaking of which, Valus goes on about how the vegan lifestyle creates people better physically & mentally, which kinda reminds me of what the Nazis said about the Aryans (and so many others say about their own special interest groups--with their own studies to "prove" it and conveniently overlooking studies that refute them AND don't come from their own special interest group). Granted, he's not advocating genocide, but then many Nazis don't either (many even deny that such a genocide ever took place, or that if it did, that it was done by rogues). IP: Logged |
Dervish
Knowflake Posts: 245
From:
Registered: May 2009
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posted September 08, 2009 03:05 AM
quote:
How would you talk to a Nazi?What would you say?
While I believe you ask questions to attack (I suppose you'd say "teach") rather than to find actual understanding, I'll answer that: I've talked to neo-nazis quite civilly. One pair was even very intelligent, though I frustrated them with points I kept bringing up and they kept annoying me by answering some of my questions with something like, "You're not ready for the truth on that yet." They eventually blacklisted me or something. As a runaway, skinheads and neo-nazis were just part of the background, along with so much other racial hate (not just from whites) and gangs and factions. I was interested in how there were different sects of white supremacists and skinheads (who'd fight each other over who the "real white power" was) at this one place with a mosh pit a Krew of runaway kids I joined up with went to. One very odd sect that none of the others like was even pro-gay male, saying a certain Nazi officer was actually gay and promoting a "Roman" lifestyle in which men had sex with each other and with women only to continue the race (out of duty, not desire). The highest form of life to them was a gay white male and the lowest a Jewish lesbian. Given that Hitler was vegetarian (or at least leaned that way), I wouldn't be surprised by vegan skinheads, too, though I didn't encounter any that I know of. I got along with a skinchick and asked why she joined with them even when they beat & limit her and she said you had to stick with your own color. Given the racial hate in Houston, I could understand that. But I mentioned, "With friends like them, who needs enemies?" It apparently had an effect which led to a violent chain reaction (including a huge brawl between anarchist punks--some of whom were vegan--and skinheads out in the parking lot), kinda funny IMO, but beside the point. Though I will add I got attacked myself by 3 skinheads unexpectedly and I defended myself violently, finally pulling 2 knives out fully psyched to use them (I hadn't discovered guns yet). Just as I'd do if some vegan ecoterrorists attacked me. And one guy who used me to scout a house he wanted to break into (pretty cowardly overall, but I'll skip on those details) was a member of WAR (White Aryan Resistance), and was about to go to their HQ in California and wanted me to leave Houston with him and he'd protect me there. I asked him what it was like and he got a religious-like glow as he described the ritual greetings, which included one going, "How goes the war?" "It goes well, and if Hitler is dead [which he may not be], then he is alive in my heart." That reminded me of Christians saying they had Jesus in their heart and I asked him about the similarities and if they believed Hitler, or one like him, would bring about a glorious heaven on earth and he just got confused and left me. But understand, I didn't ask my question to attack him but rather I was genuinely curious and trying to understand his point of view and better understand the human condition in general. I didn't understand fundies, or nazis, or racism, or the things like that and I was driven to learn to understand. IP: Logged |
MyVirgoMask
Knowflake Posts: 1296
From: Bay Area, CA
Registered: May 2009
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posted September 08, 2009 03:14 AM
Interesting post, Dervish. I'm pretty amazed at what you've been through. IP: Logged |
Glaucus
Knowflake Posts: 1298
From: Sacramento,California
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 08, 2009 04:18 AM
ummmmBecause I am part Black, I wouldn't bother exchanging words with them. Heck...I wouldn't even be in the near vicinity with them. I would not associate with them any type of way.
That goes for the Klu Klux Klan as well as any racist groups...no matter what race they are.
Raymond
------------------
“It is absolutely the perfect name,” Dr. Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status. In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War. “She causes strife by causing arguments among men, by making them think their opinions are right and everyone else’s is wrong,” Dr. Brown said. “It really is just perfect.” http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/15/science/space/15xena.html?_r=1 IP: Logged |
Dervish
Knowflake Posts: 245
From:
Registered: May 2009
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posted September 08, 2009 05:11 AM
Actually Raymond, if you'd been a kid in the area of Houston runaways gathered in the summer of 98, you WOULD have dealt with skinheads and the like, as well as racists who were black (who'd also hate you for being mixed) and other races, too. At least they'd deal with you no matter what.The Krew I joined was the ONLY racially mixed "gang" in the area, sorta a confederacy of different age groups, divided to a lesser degree by other factors, and included a few biracials, gays of all races, and racially mixed couples that couldn't find a home anywhere else. As a member of our Krew, you'd likely have gone to that place with the Pit yourself, and even if you hadn't, you'd have to have dealt with racists on both sides of the law anyway, even more so without a Krew to back you. They're just like flash floods, severe storms, fire ants, and hurricanes, a fact of life that would come for you sooner or later, and when you're living on the streets, especially as a minor, there's just not much you can do about it. You could choose to be on your own. As a biracial that would pretty much be your only option (save going back home, going to juvie where you'd find a similar problem, or who knows if you thumbed it out of there). And if you did, you'd DEFINITELY deal with all races hunting you down for sport once they realized you didn't have anyone backing you, from skinheads to blacks who thought it made them look cool to stab or shoot others right in front of their friends and everyone else. And since you'd probably find it very difficult to find a place to squat (that hadn't been claimed by us or other groups), you'd also be very vulnerable to a very racist & violent police department that you couldn't hide from (there'd been a race riot a few years earlier because a cop who shot an unarmed black security guard admitted on his application that he was a member of white supremacist groups and wanted to be a cop so "I can shoot people," and I saw enough to know why that isn't a surprise). Oh, yes, one way the cops got out from being investigated for beatings is that sometimes they'd beat the crap out of you (with sticks) and then just leave you there without arresting you. As a kid you couldn't go to the cops without admitting to being a criminal (runaway, who typically has to do illegal things to survive) and even if you did, good luck in making it stick (because it wouldn't). And unless you were well protected after (and I doubt you would be), the cops would bust you with crack or something that they got from the evidence room, or even just shoot you and throw a gun from the evidence room down beside you (they actually did the last to a white runaway boy many years prior that the boy's family uncovered with the help of a PI, and with a movie made about it after, though it doesn't ever get shown on the local stations in Houston). IP: Logged |
cpn_edgar_winner
Knowflake Posts: 1240
From: Toledo, OH
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 08, 2009 05:30 AM
i admire you dervish, for being a overcomer of so much! i wish every good thing for you for the rest of your life. you certainly deserve it.IP: Logged |
wheels of cheese
Knowflake Posts: 600
From:
Registered: May 2009
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posted September 08, 2009 06:19 AM
I don't get this connection you are trying to make between Nazis and meat eaters. You were a meat eater until 5 seconds ago, so you'd still be eligible for the Nuremberg Trials pal. Have some humility for christ's sake.And the Nazis weren't a "culture" they were a political party. IP: Logged |
Glaucus
Knowflake Posts: 1298
From: Sacramento,California
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 08, 2009 10:51 AM
Dervish,Yeah..I am grateful that I didn't live in Houston. I have never lived any where in the South. Heck...I have never been down South. I have Southern roots too. My father was a black creole man from Louisiana. He was born in New Orleans and grew up in Lake Charles. He even asked my mother about all of us moving down there,and my mom didn't think it was a good idea. California is the only state that I have ever lived in. I was born in San Francisco,and I grew up in Sacramento. When I was in the navy, I lived in Alameda and San Diego which were cities that I was stationed at. The only states that I have visited were Washington,New Jersey,New York,New Hampshire,and Vermont. I had a chance to go to Georgia to visit one of my aunts for the summer, but I changed my mind about going. I was in my teens at the time. My mom was actually glad that I didn't go to.
I wouldn't mind going to Louisiana in the future,and get in touch with my heritage there
any ways....I avoid racists of all races. I don't care if they are white,black,hispanic,or Asian.
My mother points out to me that Sacramento still has problems with racial prejudice. I honestly haven't really experienced it here. I pretty much mind my own business,and I stay out of trouble. I live in Oak Park area in Sacramento,and it's a predominantly Black area. It was pretty ghetto back in the day, but it's been cleaned up quite a bit. Mayor Kevin Johnson helped clean it up. He grew up in this area. I am a member of an interfaith unity church,and it's mostly white. That doesn't bother me at all. My best friend,Steve is Mexican of half Native American descent, and he's a shaman. There is a bit of holistic,New Age,New Thought community here. There are healing arts festivals that happen quite frequently in this area,and I like that. There is one coming up on September 13th. I am going to attend it with Steve.
1998 was the year that my maternal grandfather committed suicide,and I first got into metaphysical subjects including Astrology. I was still in the navy at the time. I was in San Diego, and then I was stationed at Diego Garcia base on Chagos Island which was part of the British Indian Ocean territories.
Raymond
------------------
“It is absolutely the perfect name,” Dr. Brown said, given the continuing discord among astronomers and the public over whether Pluto should have retained its planetary status. In mythology, Eris ignited discord that led to the Trojan War. “She causes strife by causing arguments among men, by making them think their opinions are right and everyone else’s is wrong,” Dr. Brown said. “It really is just perfect.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/15/science/space/15xena.html?_r=1 IP: Logged |
cpn_edgar_winner
Knowflake Posts: 1240
From: Toledo, OH
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 08, 2009 11:08 AM
persons of jewish descent would be extremly offended at the very idea of equating the slaughter of human beings and what they endured, those that endured.... to persons who eat meat.in fact, i am offended for them. you are equating people with animals. jewish people in particular. everyone on this board knows how you feel about cruel meat eaters.. presenting you views in different ways and equating animals to a race that was nearly obliverated at the hands of a creul regime trivializes what they have suffered as HUMANS. and it certainly doesn't change how people feel about thier food choices. IP: Logged |
Valus
Knowflake Posts: 1234
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 08, 2009 11:20 AM
Its not about me, wheels. Try to figure that much out, if you can. I have plenty of humility, particularly as regards my attitude towards animals. I can't believe I allowed myself to be so blind for so long, and I take full responsibility for that. Having seen the error of my ways, I did a 180% turn. I've already discussed my views on punishment and free will, and if you know anything about me you would know that I am capable of finding a person guilty of the most horrific crimes and simultaneously innocent by reason of ignorance and weakness. I have a very profound understanding of human psychology, believe it or not. I think you are all committing some of the most disturbing crimes I have ever seen, and I still love and forgive you. But I will tell you the truth, even if you hate me for it. I know all of you must find these comparisons odd or offensive, but from where I am seeing it, they make perfect sense. Don't shoot the messenger, but try to come to terms with your own behavior, and how it is affecting innocent lives.
The Hidden Truth About Your Food
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAFoWXROyAc
Factory Farming vs. Raw Food
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOlEQlzn_tE
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Valus
Knowflake Posts: 1234
From:
Registered: Apr 2009
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posted September 08, 2009 11:25 AM
"As long as man continues to be the ruthless destroyer of lower beings, he will never know peace. For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seeds of murder and pain, cannot reap joy and love." ~ Pythagoras   IP: Logged | |
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