posted September 13, 2009 11:24 AM         

And Valus:

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If I dont want to debate you, its mainly because you havent learned how to put a sentence together, and half the time I can't even make out what it is you're trying to say. Things like that can try my patience to the point where I just don't want to bother. Besides that, I dont find any substance in the dismissive and unoriginal responses you've been making. You reject my contributions without fair consideration and just repeat the popular views. You seem to assume that popularity must be instantly recognized as the highest credential. For me, and for every truly independent mind the world has ever known, just the opposite is true. On top of this, you have a juvenile egotism ("dud dud diss") that is just plain annoying. You're probably one of these people who says retarded things like "you got served". I just feel kind of icky talking to you. That's why I'm not keen on debating you, if you must know.

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Mr. Valus; Keep in mind that some of us are doing... other, more constructive things in our real lives while responding to your... little rants (Most of which I might add don't have a lick of academic backing.) I am actually doing a little report on the problems associated with the lack of motivation of the given sector of the unemployed population which refuses to update its skill to meet the need of a new dynamic work environment. I could probably use this little discussion as an example Lol!

But on with the argument:

You say that you don't trust academic journals on the grounds that they are all minipulated and distorted to serve the conservatives yet this so called "conservative" ideology has helped billions of people as compared to a hand full of your testimonies. You seem to assume that these independent thinkers know more about how the human body works then a certified doctor or a nutritionist yet they can't even pinpoint the difference between enzymes and hormones. Pathetic really if you ask me since I can ask my little nephew to name them out for me . So yes Valus, there is little if not ANY credibility to your given independent sources.

Offcourse, I do not want to call you a vegetablehead or say that you might be suffering from an acute case of paranoia and self-loathing and you probably think that everyone is out to get you and reverse your misguided thinking on various subjects... Or that trying to talk to you can be utterly annoying since its like making a 12 year old mind understand the basics of biology and the business world, but your actions are pointing in that direction.

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But, intuitively, I can listen to someone like Paul Nison tell his own story, and I know he's telling the truth, and I know there is value in what he tells. He cured himself of a disease which the medical community said was incurable. They said the only answer was surgery -- to cut out his bowels and leave him with a permanent collostomy bag. Instead, he went against the advice of his doctor, changed his diet, and changed his life; becoming healthier than he ever imagined he could be. There are lots of stories like this out there, but you need to listen to the people. Real people, and not corporate interests and institutions mired in their conventions.

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I have to say then I question your intuition Mr. Valus (amoung other things.)You can probably shell out about hundered of little testimonies to cover your arguments but I can shell out millions that refute them. Paul Nison might be one of the rare cases that support your line of thought but let me as you this; How many people have died because they refused surgery to remove a tumor? Or IV drips for that matter? How many people are gonna die because they refuse "conventional" MRI scans? Cancer, Mr. Valus, does not discriminates. But offcourse its all way too "mainstream" for you am I right? Lol!

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You say the FDA would lose money from keeping people sick because they'd have to pay more benefits to their employees. You make arguments like this and expect me to take you seriously? Xodian, if you can't see how absurd this is... Do I really have to point out to you that they make billions off of selling their medications, and that this trumps employee health benefits by about, oh, say, billions of dollars? Come on. The employees of the FDA dont begin to compare to the number of people in the general public who purchase medications every week. Moreover, if the information I'm promoting were generally accepted, the FDA would be out of business in a week.

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*Le Sigh...* Hopeless... But I'll be patient with you:

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We as a nation lose billions through poor health which for the most part is self induced. Pfizer

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Keep in mind that this is a DRUG company that is trying to make sure that ALL employees are in tip top condition and ready for work. They actually recommend "alternative" workout routines such as Yoga. If they had solid evidence that your... Vegan diet actually does works, trust me, they wouldn't hesitate to recommend it for everyone. The entire country IS losing billions every year out of Employee health related issues. Just use your head Valus; The corporations aren't gonna let the FDA walk away by letting it feed them false information about keeping their Human resource intact and like I said before, the FDA is creating problems for itself in the long run by tainting their own pool from which they draw skilled workers from.

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Why not listen to what they do know? I must have missed your sources that debunked raw foods. What do you make of all the people who are transforming themselves and manifesting their highest destinies through a raw foods diet?

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If the given expert in question doesn't even knows the basics of human metabolisim, enzymes and hormonal makeup, how can I possibly listen to them? Its like listening to an astrologer who says that the planets don't actually exist Lol!

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How about the health problems we see in the general public, who follow the Standard American Diet (SAD)? Where do they appear in your studies?

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And studies have been conducted on it and most of them usually come out with minor deviations or the inclusion of other given factors like environment or lack of exercise Mr. Valus (something you should be looking at Lol!)

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A hundred years ago, 1 in 8,000 people was diagnosed with Cancer. Now its 1 in 3.

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See the statement above this one.

posted September 13, 2009 11:24 AM         

Guys, do you seriously want to continue this thread? I'm sure everyone is seeing that people from all sides are getting hurt already but I don't understand why they continue to prolong (and seem to enjoy) it. Geesh. Are we a bunch of sadomasochists here?

If this were a movie, this should be the part where it says:

-- THE END --

Characters (in order of appearance):

Valus
T
Xodian
Yin
woah city
lechien
MoonWitch
Unmoved
Glaucus
libraschoice7
SunChild
Lucia23
MyVirgoMask
Cheshire Kat
wheels of cheese
aerialcircus
Musette
katatonic
cpn_edgar_winner
Azalaksh
(DeuxAntares)

posted September 13, 2009 11:30 AM         

quote:

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And if people do that to you - OH NO! LOL We are supposed to keep in mind that we cant hear your tone of voice when you dont keep that in mind when reading others?

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Deux, nice touch!!

posted September 13, 2009 11:42 AM         

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Xodian,
I appreciate your arguments,insights,and information.

It's good to see both sides of the issue and not just one side.

Critical thinking is highly valued by me.

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Well thankyou Glaucus .

Atleast some of us actually use our Neurons for something more... Constructive. Offcourse, some of us have healthy functioning Neurons because we get all the required fatty acids that we need .

posted September 13, 2009 12:26 PM         

I can't believe what I'm hearing.

All of you are ganging up on lechien,
just because she spewed a stream of insults.

Jesus, she's only human, you know.

Why not give her a break?

Is it really necessary for so many of you
to harp and harp and harp on poor lechien?

I mean, sure, its the most vicious,
aggressive, mean-spirited, and personal
attack we've seen around here in a while,
but I can't believe what I'm hearing.

One after another, you add your two cents,
all criticizing her for her angry outburst.

You know, she's not the only one here
who has felt frustrated and provoked
and said things she shouldn't have.

There's plenty of blame to go around.
Let's not focus it all on one person.

I'm sure she's a good soul, after all.

I was really upset with her at first,
but after seeing you all ganging up
I can't help but feel some sympathy.

I mean, its all so one-sided and unfair.

Give her a break, will ya?

posted September 13, 2009 12:41 PM         

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence." ~ Albert Einstein

congratulations, valus, you have DECONVERTED one vegan and created a lot of resistance around the topic. keep patting yourself on the back.

disagreement is not always proof of genius!
and congratulations on your "original" idea that eating flesh is cruelty to animals.

posted September 13, 2009 04:36 PM         

Valus,
' The pen would smoothly write the things it knew
But when it came to love it split in two,
A donkey stuck in mud is logic's fate -
Love's nature only love can demonstrate.'
Hezrat Molina ( Rumi)

------------------
What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world is immortal"~

posted September 13, 2009 05:50 PM         

The lack of objectivity on this thread is sort of amazing. Its almost as if you all got picked on a lot in school and now you see a chance to gang up and jump on somebody else and you're all having a feild day, letting all your aggression out. I havent said anything worse than whats been said to me many times over. But I'm the one who gets the heat. It would be funny if it werent so sad, and didnt reflect an alarming degree of subjectivity in my fellow knowflakes.

Did I ever say that this was an original idea? You just pull stuff out of your ass, don't you? The willingness to promote unpopular virtues is something we see in independent thinkers, sure, but I never claimed it was original. Btw, I think its pretty clear that if lechien got "deconverted" by my personality, she has bigger problems to deal with.

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what if Valus had one of these frenzied parties and NO one showed up?

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How nice of you to show, juni.

posted September 13, 2009 05:59 PM         

quote:

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People keep baiting me with this genius stuff, and I keep responding, and then I get more crap for talking about it.

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posted September 13, 2009 06:05 PM         

quote:

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What I've done is take the bait. People keep baiting me with this genius stuff, and I keep responding, and then I get more crap for talking about it. I'm not the one who brings it up. Its certain people here who love to wind me up and take their shots. If it was up to me, I'd never talk about it.

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posted September 13, 2009 06:09 PM         

Antiaquarian,

posted September 13, 2009 06:10 PM         

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Valus, you have brought up plenty of reasonable evidence to support your claim that eating meat is unethical.
I really appreciate it as I continue to explore your links, read up on the topics mentioned and watch the videos.
It has been quite an enlighting experience for me.
I'm learning new things.
That's the bottom line for me.
Thank you.

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Thank you, Yin.

quote:

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i honour valus' bravery and, it could be argued, the LACK of ego involved in putting himself on the line. he knows some of you may now think less of him, but he doesn't care because that is not the point... he's right about this. people need to be aware and it needs to stop.

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Thank you, woah city.

quote:

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You know, I haven't even been hanging around these forums for all that long and think I already have a pretty good idea of what Valus is about (in the context of LL, that is)- he's an intensely passionate, aggressively ideological Pluto-Chironic bro who deeply wants to share his ethics (none of which are bad things). Every time I see a post by him in 2.0 I have a good idea what it's tone will be. If I don't think I can take his heat, I just stay out of his kitchen-- so to speak.

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Thank you, aerial circus.

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I think the point is (if you eat meat), would you want to eat a meat meal after viewing that picture? (Probably NOT.) If you eat veggies, would you want to eat a carrot or tomato after seeing a picture of it harvested? (Um, yes, probably.) A graphic image of someone picking a ripe tomato doesn't cause shame or revulsion because...well, think about it... The fact is that when we eat meat, we are eating a slaughtered animal, a sentient being. (Pigs will actually come when you call them by name.) Everyone who is doing that is making a DECISION. And I think that's why graphic images are important. I don't think anyone would've censored out Valus's image if he'd shown a ham sandwich or a breakfast plate with bacon...which is actually the corpse of that same bloody pig, only set on fire.

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Lucia, thank you.

quote:

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I know so many could argue with this and say "this or that" to suit their own bias ~ but I must say "THANKYOU" for pushing your personal agenda to promote raw veganism.
It is SO important.

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SunChild, thank you.

posted September 13, 2009 06:39 PM         

quote:

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It defeats the purpose of this forum - to learn from each other.

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That would be a valid statement, IF Valus wanted to learn from the arguments made against his sources and his ideals.

Instead, all I have seen him do is revert back to playing the victim everytime his beliefs are questioned or argued against. When presented with academic sources, he always goes back to the same excuse of tagging it as a biased conservative product and places values on his so called independent sources which don't seem to have any shread of solid feesible backing.

So in the end, all I see is childish behavior; Whining and crying about his ideas being valid, just because he thinks so... If anything I see lack of objectivity on his part where he always brings up subjective reasoning only to be scolded by the crowd on his actions and then starts playing the victim.

posted September 13, 2009 06:53 PM         

for the record, i feel it is you who has been defensive, ie whenever anyone appears to be disagreeing or seeing another side to the question, you take it as an attack and "attack back" though often yours is actually the first attack, whether aggressive or passive. when you dismiss people's offerings as banal or bloody-minded instead of engaging them in their attempts to communicate, they become more and more resistant to your point of view in toto.

lechien very eloquently tried to describe her(?) rising frustration, which is echoed over and over again here, and you see it as a vicious attack. i thought she sounded hurt and yet still trying to communicate...

what i am trying to say is many people here actually agree with you TO A POINT, and rather than lead them the rest of the way you have basically told them to go fly a kite, which is NOT PRODUCTIVE of the result you claim to want.

i feel for you because i believe you mean to do good but you are letting your feelings get in the way of your message. if it is all important that everyone soak up your insights and change their lives immediately, you will create little change and a lot of frustration on both sides.

"Unmoved, mere informing is usually not enough. If you are in the right mood, if you are ready to accept a new truth and make a change in your lifestyle, then getting informed works." i think it was yin who said this? for the record, when my daughter was 8 she didn't need to know how cruelly animals were killed for her meat. she knew they were killed and decided to be a vegetarian. i was overjoyed until it turned out she didn't want to eat any vegetables except french fries and mushrooms. as a parent i could not allow that. after trying for a week to make vegetables attractive to her i had to ban the vegetarian diet for the time being. so i don't think graphic pictures are necessary for conversion any more than whipping is.

for the record i don't think the pictures needed to be censored. but the way they were presented was sadistic. not conducive to your cause of preventing cruelty.

posted September 14, 2009 03:01 PM         

i understand your need to get people to look at what they are doing. the thing is - like my 8 yr old - most people don't need their noses pushed into the sh1t...and if you have ever tried to housetrain an animal you will know how COUNTERproductive that practice is!

the truth is that until people are ready they will not make the change. when they ARE, they will. there are probably as many different stages of evolution as there are creatures (i mean individual creatures) on this earth...and beyond too if you believe in other worlds.

posted September 14, 2009 08:54 PM         

I don't need to slander or demonize anyone.
I generally give everyone enough rope to either save themselves or hang themselves with.
The choice is always up to them

posted September 15, 2009 12:30 PM         

and the person who said you make her sick - further explained that she meant the pictures literally made her sick.

and if anyone is demonizing anyone on here, you are demonizing meat eaters in no uncertain terms. makeing statements that are extremely judgemental and meant to shame or convert others. those tactics i liken to any church who believes thier way is the only way and girls who wear makeup will not go to heaven... not my cuppa tea, those tactics. it infers that you have the corner on truth and i don't place any mans intelligence as superior or having all of the answers or THE right way, as I have a mind of my own.

i have an aversion to being manipulated. a very strong aversion to it. i don't think any man alive has the corner on truth and i belive i have the right to live my life as i choose, not as someone chooses for me. to eat only non cooked foods i believe, in my mind, would compromise the quality of my life. that is my choice, my feedom and my opinion, which i do not care one whit if you share any of my beliefs with me, as they belong to me and are mine alone.

i extend that courtesy to you also, i care not what you choose for yourself with your freedoms, as they are your god given rights, being born a man, who has a will of his own.

i wish you luck on your journey, but if you think you are on a mission of humanitarianism to rid the world of animal cruelty i suggest you make a new plan of how to do that, without being that jahovah witness type preacher that won't leave the door...as true conversions happen when individuals conclude for themselves that the way is thus and thus...

your statement that you shamed and converted your girlfriend into veganism infers that her will and mind are weak and ripe for manipulations. perhaps she could use the same tactics and shame you into getting a job or bending to her will in some life changing manner...which is no different than any cult or mind freak ******** the organised religions pass as truth.

which is the true religion valus? they all think they are...

is it catholic? do priests have to make intercession?

is it the baptists? one must be saved by jesus alone...then sanctified?

the penticostals? - sin once and lose your salvation?

the nazarenes? - no smokers will be in heaven?

the buddist? deeds...

which one of the ONLY ways is the RIGHT and true way? and why should i believe one over the other? because you say so? and why would i think your thoughts matter more than my own? am i too stupid to think for myself, now i need you to think for me and make my decissions for me, by shame and degradation?

you didnt even respond to the poster who suggested you politick for animal rights and conditions to be imporved for slaughter houses. in fact you didn't respond to anyone who had suggestions on a better way to further your cause.

an once of actions beats a ton of words....

i'll be right here .....sipping hallelujah....

martin sexton

Does Satan wear a suit and tie
does he work at the Dairy Queen
Does he listen to rock and roll
Does he feed the mean streak
in all of us

What about Jesus
Didn't he do it too?
Hang out with prostitutes
And have a drink or two.
Power of example
My mama said it and I heard
She says one ounce of action
Beats a ton of words.

Singing Hallelujah.
Mama said there would be angels
Hallelujah.
Mama said there would be sun

Is the devil in Elvis
to go where no white man went
Or hiding in Hugh Hefner's body
or maybe even Larry Flynt.
Say, hows about the President
shielding all them stones
Man if I could find a shield like
that I'd run around naked
in my glass home.

Sippin Hallelujah

I think my angel's gone to Vegas
Sippin Hallelujah
Holding aces in her hand.
Hallelujah
As she's singing rock of ages.
Hallelujah
On the table at the Sands.
Hallelujah

Does Satan wear a suit and tie
Does he work at the Dairy Queen.
Does he listen to rock and roll
Does he feed the mean
Streak in all of us?
All us saints here on earth

Hypnotized and over-advertised
Til we're numb at birth

Singing Hallelujah
And my angel's turning pages
Singing Hallelujah
And she just don't understand.
Hallelujah
That the devil's hot on her trail. Hallelujah
On the road to broken promised land. Hallelujah
On the TV and the radio.
Hallelujah
Good and evil look the same to you

that song....It really makes me think about how no matter how much higher we all think we are above one another, we all really are equals when it comes down to it. As high up as everyone puts Jesus, the question is posed " didn't Jesus do it too, hang out with the prostitutes and have a drink or two?" Even a man as high and mighty as the great Jesus brought himself to such an equal of man.

soapboxes devide.

love unites.

peace.