posted June 27, 2012 04:13 PM            

If you aren't familiar with the group, please consider looking into it.

Website: http://www.newamericancentury.org/

Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_new_american_century

Short video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sg_NRC8ozk

Long video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TZ3xRKSnP4&feature=related

Reformed as FPI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Policy_Initiative

Edited.

Also want to add this great link:
Ron Paul Names and Shames the Neocons: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGdcjNLL0-g

posted June 27, 2012 08:19 PM            

At any rate, it is nice to have new people to add to our discussions, as Kat must be getting tired of batting me around

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted June 28, 2012 06:46 AM            

I don't pay attention to David Icke, the sites above are: 1) from the actual group; 2) wiki page, and then just videos.

posted June 28, 2012 08:34 AM            

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posted June 28, 2012 10:08 AM            

For example...keeping with this thread's topic... most, if not all, of the founding members of the Project for the New American Century hold dual US-Israeli citizenship. Key among this dual-citizen group are Robert Kagan, father of Supreme Court Justice Elena Kagan. Also, William Kristol, son of arch-neoconservative Irving Kristol. He is everywhere in D.C., but he is best known as editor of the neoconservative magazine The Weekly Standard. That was started by Rupert Murdoch, whose Israeli sympathies have won him various accolades and "favors" in his ascension to power. Kristol was hand-selected by Murdoch.

A lot of members of PNAC are also members of the American Enterprise Institute, which is extremely powerful and is also outspokenly pro-Israel (with many of its members, again, holding Israeli citizenship.)

posted July 07, 2012 09:00 AM            

A PNAC Primer: http://www.counterpunch.org/2003/05/27/a-pnac-primer/

A medium-length (10 minute) video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egqqCYSfV2k&feature=related

General Wesley Clark's testimony about the PNAC plan to go into a laundry list of countries, including Libya (2 minutes): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RC1Mepk_Sw

Forbes: Libya Exposes Obama as our Latest Neocon President http://www.forbes.com/sites/richardsalsman/2011/03/23/libya-exposes-obama-as-our-latest-neocon-president/2/

Let me know when you need more, ok?

posted July 07, 2012 09:10 AM            

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posted July 07, 2012 01:23 PM            

Thus far I'm seeing very little that promotes your ideas on PNAC. It seems like a group that set out to bolster Bush's foreign policy agenda, and little else. I've poked around more at the site itself, and it's incredibly boring. Not at all the sensational conspiracy you're making it out to be.

From your Wikipedia link:

When the project started, it was not intended to go forever. That is why we are shutting it down. We would have had to spend too much time raising money for it and it has already done its job. We felt at the time that there were flaws in American foreign policy, that it was neo-isolationist. We tried to resurrect a Reaganite policy. Our view has been adopted. Even during the Clinton administration we had an effect, with Madeleine Albright [then secretary of state] saying that the United States was 'the indispensable nation'. But our ideas have not necessarily dominated. We did not have anyone sitting on Bush's shoulder. So the work now is to see how they are implemented

It's difficult not to get the impression that PNAC is just a standard Conservative voice in American politics at this point. The sensationalism you want to bring them, thus far for me, is unfounded.

The wife is up now, so maybe it's time to get on with the weekend.

posted July 07, 2012 01:35 PM            

ever heard of the tudors? napoleon? the romans? we are going down the very same road...

but none of that makes obama a neo-con. the evidence is circumstantial given our distance from the actual heart of the matter.

posted July 07, 2012 04:51 PM            

A PNAC primer from 2003. This is supposed to be instructive about how PNAC is still running American foreign policy (nine years after the fact)? More guilt-by-association lines of thinking again with the ties to Leo Strauss. Once again, I'm not denying that Leo Strauss had a poor philosophy or that these people did, in fact, enjoy the guy's work, but I see it in the same way that I see an Objectivism follower: Ayn Rand made brilliant arguments, arguments that were easily adoptable, and seemed inherently and infinitely plausible; unfortunately, her philosophy wasn't truly credible overall, because of man's natural inclination towards charity. A lot of people adopt philosophies, and then seem to follow them up with not learning anything additional, which makes them stuck in that philosophy. All of those NeoCons were stuck in a philosophy. It doesn't mean that that philosophy must live on. It also doesn't mean that someone seemingly embracing that philosophy can't be employing a different philosophy overall. You think Obama's embraced PNAC, because he used "New American Century" and you view his foreign policy as more of the same. Is that truly grasping the big picture? Are you certain you know what Obama's philosophy is?

Still, this passage in this link is good: "(Don’t get me wrong. The Islamic fanatics that use terror as their political weapon are real and deadly and need to be stopped. The question is: How to do that in ways that enhance rather than detract from America’s long-term national interests?)." At least this expert acknowledges that there was no conspiracy in enacting the "Pearl Harbor" event sought by PNAC.

Even today, the Bush manipulators, led by Karl Rove, continue to utilize fear and hyped-up patriotism and a permanent war on terrorism as the basis for their policy agenda, the top item of which, at this juncture, consists of getting Bush elected in 2004. This, in order to continue to fulfill their primary objectives, not the least of which domestically is to roll back and, where possible, decimate and eliminate social programs that the far-right has hated since the New Deal/Great Society days.

I agree with the first part of this. Yes, the Bush administration broadly engaged in fear-mongering as leverage. I'm not quite so sure about rolling back the social programs as Bush was a HUGE spender. However, if they really were that clever to put into place a plan that would end with us here, where Conservatives like Ryan do actually propose rolling back benefits, then that's pretty amazing. I'm surprised that they would predict a dis-ease with borrowing after successfully engaging in it for so long. And here is where we have to point out that Obama increased social programs putting him at odds with PNAC.

It makes a lot of people feel good that we "won" the battle for Iraq, but in doing so we paid too high a price at that, and may well have risked losing the larger war in the Arab/Muslim region: the U.S. now lacks moral stature and standing in much of the world, it is revealed as a liar for all to see (no WMDs in Iraq, no connection to 9/11, no quick handing-over the interim reins of government to the Iraqis as initially promised), it destroyed a good share of the United Nation’s effectiveness and prestige that may come in handy later, it needlessly alienated our traditional allies, it infuriated key elements of the Muslim world, it provided political and emotional ammunition for anti-U.S. terrorists, etc.

I agree completely.

One can believe that maybe PNAC sincerely believes its rhetoric — that instituting U.S.-style free-markets and democratically-elected governments in Iraq and the other authoritarian-run countries of the Islamic Middle East will be good both for the citizens of that region and for American interests as well — but even if that is true, it’s clear that these incompetents are not operating in the world of Middle Eastern realities.

Ah, yes, as I also opined: they can sincerely believe their own rhetoric regardless of whether it's wise.

It ends with several paragraphs stating that we needed regime change in America, which many of us agreed with. The author's website is included at the bottom, and at his website there is not an indictment of Obama as being part of PNAC. In fact, even though the home page has a single comment on the current election, it appears that all other blogging has stopped as of 2010. He's 77 years old. I guess he's not so concerned anymore.

posted July 07, 2012 05:13 PM            

it is also important to remember, as proven once again in the '10 elections, that money and plotting aren't guarantees of winning. the two superrich candidates who tried to buy positions in california were soundly thrashed for all the money they poured into "killing" the opposition.

intrigue is what the power game is all about. long before machiavelli, people were playing poker with the lives of "the people" and it still goes on.

posted July 07, 2012 11:12 PM            

quote:

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Thus far I'm seeing very little that promotes your ideas on PNAC. It seems like a group that set out to bolster Bush's foreign policy agenda, and little else.

---

You DO know by now that PNAC members include Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, and other key figures in the Bush administration.

You really think Bush wrote the Bush Doctrine himself?

What do you make of the PNAC manifesto, Rebuilding America's Defenses? And the fact that it was written prior to 9 11 and includes no reference to terr*rism, but targets Ir*q all the same?

Again, to drive my point home, it was NEVER about terr*rism. So I talk about PNAC because that's how our current foreign policy got started. And this is what O is continuing with.

If you don't see the validity in learning about that, all I can say is....at this point, I'm not surprised!!

PNAC members are still very active in the FPI, AEI, CFR and as individuals.

As for how they are affecting Obama, all I can say is, the proof is in the pudding. He is doing their bidding, carrying their torch, and appointing PNAC insiders to key positions in gov't. I thought I would let you figure this out, as it must be embarrassing having me show you every little thing.

We've already covered Kagan. Then there is PNAC member Dennis Ross:

quote:

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During President Jimmy Carter's administration, Ross worked under Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz in the Pentagon. There, he co-authored a study recommending greater U.S. intervention in "the Persian Gulf Region because of our need for Persian Gulf oiland because events in the Persian Gulf affect the Arab-Israeli conflict."

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Ross was a noted supporter of the Iraq war and he signed two Project for a New American Century (PNAC) letters in support of the war in March 2003.

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Of course a guy like that would be VERY useful to the current President:

quote:

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On June 25, 2009 the White House announced that Ross was leaving the State Department to join the National Security Council staff as a Special Assistant to the President and Senior Director for the Central Region, with overall responsibility for the region. The Central Region includes the Middle East, the Persian Gulf, Afghanistan, Pakistan and South Asia.

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Do you admit that that is a big job or am I stretching things again?

At what point do you get my point?

quote:

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It's difficult not to get the impression that PNAC is just a standard Conservative voice in American politics at this point. The sensationalism you want to bring them, thus far for me, is unfounded.

---

You do NOT think it's sensational that this group's preemptive w*r agenda has become the standard Conservative (AND liberal...look at yourself) voice at this point?

If the fact that America has become a country that attacks other sovereign nations, and is turning into a fear-driven police state with the almost unanimous approval of its people, is not sensational, what is?

posted July 08, 2012 12:31 AM            

If the fact that America has become a country that attacks other sovereign nations, and is turning into a fear-driven police state with the almost unanimous approval of its people, is not sensational, what is?

is not particularly new. we have been doing the out-of-control-roman-empire thing for a long time now. if you have spent much time in any other part of the world, you will see that it is transparent to others. but our diehard american supremicist patriots are completely in agreement that we are the best and wisest protectors of the benighted peoples of less enlightened countries.

the mention of carter underlines my point about obama...he didn't go along as he was told to, and he was out on his ear after 4 years. or do you think it was just because he was "too liberal" and put solar panels on the roof?

not blowing carter's horn, i never liked him much, but he is an example...

THAT is why i reserve judgement on obama. it is just as easy to believe that he is biding his time till his second term when he will not be so vulnerable, as it is that he is just a pawn. a smart honest president is not at any more liberty to do what he wishes than a crooked puppet president, especially in his first term.

this game is old, old, old. rush limbaugh and fox news have ramped up the propaganda side and the mind-muddling doublespeak, and the democrats are not much better.

you are right that they are two sides of the same coin, but they have been for about 50 years.

but carter is an example of something else as well. bucky fuller calls it "legally-piggily", and it emphasizes the SYMBIOTIC nature of left and right. roosevelt created a lot of government depts that the conservatives love to hate...and then, when eisenhower came in, many of them were privatized. this goes on elsewhere as well. the taxpayers pay for the bureaus and departments to do necessary work and regulation, then the private corporate world comes in and snaps them up...do the taxpayers get their money back? no. that is why the conservative line stinks to high heaven. it is hook line and sinker working FOR the interests of big money and makes this robbery legal.

just sayin', PNAC is a small part of the big picture.

posted July 08, 2012 04:00 PM            

quote:

---

You DO know by now that PNAC members include Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, Richard Perle, and other key figures in the Bush administration.

---

Yup.

quote:

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You really think Bush wrote the Bush Doctrine himself?

---

Nope.

quote:

---

What do you make of the PNAC manifesto, Rebuilding America's Defenses? And the fact that it was written prior to 9 11 and includes no reference to terr*rism, but targets Ir*q all the same?

---

Iraq was defying the UN even through Clinton's tenure. Iraq had been the bogeyman since the first George Bush. To claim conspiracy misses the point.

quote:

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Again, to drive my point home, it was NEVER about terr*rism. So I talk about PNAC because that's how our current foreign policy got started. And this is what O is continuing with.

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I agree with the first part. I just disagree with the idea that Obama's has fundamentally the same philosophy.

quote:

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If you don't see the validity in learning about that, all I can say is....at this point, I'm not surprised!!

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I don't think I'm learning anything real significant here. I still contend that the conspiracy part of your belief is invalid, but having knowledge of Neoconservative values is something I already had.

quote:

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As for how they are affecting Obama, all I can say is, the proof is in the pudding. He is doing their bidding, carrying their torch, and appointing PNAC insiders to key positions in gov't. I thought I would let you figure this out, as it must be embarrassing having me show you every little thing.

---

I wouldn't be embarrassed at all if you were to prove something to me. Thus far you haven't shown me "every little thing." You didn't even recognize the holes in your position. Apparently, you still don't.

Ok, so Dennis Ross is one of these PNAC guys, and now he works under Obama, except that he stepped down last year. He's worked under two Democratic administrations, and you want to assign far right philosophy to him. Based on the fact that he grew up around where I live, and that he's worked for a Berkeley-Stanford university program, I would have to guess he's not nearly as ideological as you're making him out to be. To top it off, he's a Sag. Have you seen his book?
http://www.amazon.com/Statecraft-Restore-Americas-Standing-World/dp/0374299285

From the publisher:
He shows how the failure of statecraft in Iraq and the Middle East has undercut the United States internationally, and makes clear that only statecraft can check the rise of China and the danger of a nuclear Iran. He draws on his expertise to reveal the art of successful negotiation. And he shows how the next president [OBAMA] could resolve today's problems and define a realistic, ambitious foreign policy.

quote:

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am I stretching things again?

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You are indeed.

quote:

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You do NOT think it's sensational that this group's preemptive w*r agenda has become the standard Conservative (AND liberal...look at yourself) voice at this point?

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No, I don't think preemptive war has become the standard for either liberals or conservatives across the board. I would say preemptive war is a philosophy that SOME conservatives espouse. Others, like Ron Paul supporters, don't believe in it either.

quote:

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If the fact that America has become a country that attacks other sovereign nations, and is turning into a fear-driven police state with the almost unanimous approval of its people, is not sensational, what is?

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posted July 09, 2012 08:14 AM            

Please stop with the lectures.

AG,

You are hopeless.

posted July 09, 2012 08:17 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
Kat,

Please stop with the lectures.

AG,

You are hopeless.

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You are doing great, Faith. Just stand your ground, in a strong yet firm way. This took me 3 years, as a Mod to do. You got me beat by 2 and a half years

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted July 09, 2012 08:17 AM            

quote:

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The chairman of the Project for the New American Century, William Kristol, was pleased to hear about the president’s speech.

“We’re giving President Obama an honorary degree from PNAC,” Kristol said in a phone interview.

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posted July 09, 2012 08:26 AM            

However, Obama IS a neocon and I might as well branch out to address this more fully.

This article gives a nice summary of the PNAC-Obama alliance: http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd1012b.asp

Happy little anecdote for the pro-empire crowd:

quote:

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President Barack Obama was far from candid when he announced the end of combat operations in Iraq in August — 50,000 troops and a large number of mercenaries remain — but in his speech he did nothing to hide his neoconservative outlook on the American empire.

This was not lost on leading neoconservatives, who tend to prefer Republicans. William Kristol, editor of The Weekly Standard, told a colleague that while he would have phrased the speech differently, “his basic response was: ‘All hail Obama!’”

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This is another good article: http://www.chris-floyd.com/articles/1-latest-news/2007-release-the-kagan-arch-neocon-nabob-hired-by-team-obama.html

That one is about yet another Kagan being employed high up in the ranks, under Obama.

posted July 09, 2012 08:27 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ami Anne:

You are doing great, Faith. Just stand your ground, in a strong yet firm way. This took me 3 years, as a Mod to do. You got me beat by 2 and a half years

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LOL! Thank you Ami. I just have no time for that cr*p.

posted July 09, 2012 08:33 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
My point in starting this thread was not specifically to show that Obama is a neocon. It was provide information about PNAC.

However, Obama IS a neocon and I might as well branch out to address this more fully.

This article gives a nice summary of the PNAC-Obama alliance: http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd1012b.asp

---

thanks for the article faith
it was quite the interesting (and a bit shocking) read

i dont really see israel as a terrorizing state that denies the rights of Palestinians

posted July 09, 2012 08:56 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Faith:
LOL! Thank you Ami. I just have no time for that cr*p.

---

Yep, good for you!

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted July 09, 2012 12:06 PM            

quote:

---

AG,

You are hopeless.

---

Has it been me who's been close-minded here in our discussion? I could swear it wasn't. I've been entertaining your ideas for days on end. You continue not to acknowledge the things I've said that are contrary to what you wish to believe.

posted July 09, 2012 01:35 PM            

Obama meets the same criteria and I think speculation that he was hand-picked by Brzezinksi to carry the neocon torch is warranted. But that's for another day.

Ross's book is about statecraft and, contrary to the narrow view present by "God" above, it fully embraces aggression as a legitimate tactic. Let's not wriggle around the truth here:

quote:

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He conceives of statecraft as a subtle orchestration of foreign policy "assets," including intelligence and analysis, diplomacy, sanctions, economic aid and military pressure.

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