posted July 06, 2012 12:32 PM            

Checked out your first article. Did you catch this line:

quote:

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He went into specifics too, from his administration’s drawdown from Iraq and Afghanistan to its more active leadership in the Asia-Pacific.

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or

Defense cuts are advertised as efforts to keep the military flexible and versatile.

I don't think these jive with PNAC's philosophy, and I don't think the two are related.

Here's the link to his full remarks from your second link: http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2012/05/23/remarks-president-air-force-academy-commencement

posted July 06, 2012 01:24 PM            

i also said that there is far too much emphasis on obama and not enough on the whole picture. faith has a far better big picture than you do, and so does AG, because they don't just listen to what they want to hear and throw up their hands when they don't make a kill on the "other" side.

we are all on the same side here, we are the minor characters in a vast plot that is centuries old.

as for herman cain, described by your hero as a "REAL black man" ie, his ancestors were slaves...he didn't cut the mustard for half a minute, did he? and anyone who calls obama black is forgetting that he is more than half-white. the colour of someone's skin does not attest to their lineage, nor their upbringing. so in that sense, he is NOT a "real" black man. if there is such a thing.

in elizabethan england even the king/queen had to play both sides or be killed for not doing so. the same applies today.

a president who was brought in with big money from wall street and many corporations too cannot just turn around - like kennedy did - and say nyahnyah up yours, i am going to walk all over you now.

faith, i am far closer to your thinking than you think, however short of all out revolution, which we don't really have the consensus for!...we are left with playing politics which is a game of chess at best and deadly-dirty pool at worst.

when you take a job as new manager of a company that has been operating in a certain way for years, wiping the slate clean and breaking all alliances and formats causes chaos. a wise manager goes along with most of what is in place, changing what is most urgent in increments until the place looks and works completely differently. this is what i see so far in obama.

i am more than willing to admit i am wrong but so far i see extremism everywhere and that is exactly what "they" want. a divided population who don't know whom to trust or even where to get to the real facts.

posted July 06, 2012 01:28 PM            

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posted July 06, 2012 01:56 PM            

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posted July 06, 2012 02:04 PM            

and i notice you now think 6 weeks is necessary to be brainwashed by rush, wasn't it two last time you made this challenge to AG?

posted July 06, 2012 02:20 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by katatonic:
ami when you stop using the SAME cliche over and over maybe i will credit your rerun "beliefs" a little more. i have never met a gemini so willing to be trite and repetitive..

and i notice you now think 6 weeks is necessary to be brainwashed by rush, wasn't it two last time you made this challenge to AG?

sorry but someone who cannot even listen to differing views let alone understand them is not going to convince me. you are welcome to be as angry as you like! but i am not your child, so don't expect me to obey just because you are displeased.

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What are you yammering about

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posted July 06, 2012 02:52 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by katatonic:
re read for six weeks and perhaps you will make sense of it!

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posted July 06, 2012 03:30 PM            

quote:

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when you take a job as new manager of a company that has been operating in a certain way for years, wiping the slate clean and breaking all alliances and formats causes chaos. a wise manager goes along with most of what is in place, changing what is most urgent in increments until the place looks and works completely differently. this is what i see so far in obama.

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posted July 06, 2012 03:39 PM            

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posted July 06, 2012 11:13 PM            

quote:

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What portion of his remarks outside of his use of the term "New American Century" signals an alliance with the values of PNAC?

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It's not his REMARKS that are significant and signals the alliance...although this IS telling...it's everything.

And everything I am showing you, which paints a picture cumulatively, you are, in effect, stomping on and saying, "But that evidence is nothing!"

For example:

quote:

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She does seem ok with preventive detention, but -like any liberal- would like to see such a person held legally within the boundaries of reasonable oversight.

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There is no BUT. That's exactly like saying, "She's okay with concentration camps but like any good person wants to make sure they are used judiciously."

There's NO BUT!

Also, where on earth do you get the impression that in order for me to care about the fate of innocent people in the Middle East, I have to know someone there personally? I thought YOU were anti-w*r? I mean are you, or aren't you? If you ARE anti-w*r...why? Just because YOU know someone there...or out of compassion and principle? And maybe you realize that the w*r is a fraud based on deception, and it's all coming home to roost?

And your drone statistics make no sense to me, O's been b*m bing the sh * t out of people over there.
http://www.salon.com/2012/02/05/u_s_drones_targeting_rescuers_and_mourners/

It's a CONSTELLATION of evidence. It's a MOUNTAIN so HUGE you cannot fathom it because you are staring at speck by speck on the wall going, "It's just a rock here and there." What can I say?

You've already pre-judged me as "conspiratorial" and you seem determined to prove your hunches right and peg me that way. It's irksome. I've read a lot about history and politics, my points are valid, and frankly you come off like a blowhard.

I do understand the Cap need to conserve our time and not follow weirdos on wild goose chases for information. I, too, have been reluctant to learn...and fallen flat on my face when someone wiser than me proved me a total fool.

Unfortunately, your time is coming. Good news is, it's better when wisdom comes late than never.

You ought to learn about PNAC. I created a thread with helpful links. I know you don't have TIME to watch the full-length documentary, but if you only allot me the two minutes for the short movie, you will be dissatisfied that the case has not been argued comprehesively and accuse me of providing shoddy links.

Oh well, try the short one as an "appetizer" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9sg_NRC8ozk

Your choice: you can learn, but to do that, you will also learn that you've been had.

Or you can just stay ignorant, enjoy your Kool-Aid, and waste the time of well-meaning people who try and get you to apply your sizeable brain to something more worthwhile.

posted July 06, 2012 11:52 PM            

quote:

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i am more than willing to admit i am wrong but so far i see extremism everywhere and that is exactly what "they" want. a divided population who don't know whom to trust or even where to get to the real facts.

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It's the false left-right paradigm, at least where w*r is concerned. Same ideology packaged in two "opposing" sets of rhetoric, disseminated at Republican and Democrat information feeding stations, so to speak. But really it is just ONE agenda and numerous, deliberate distractions.

Bread and circuses.

The partisan spin keeps people busy infighting over the particulars (case in point, this thread) while the truth is ignored.

You know, PNAC is really scum of the earth.

And they don't even HIDE their sinister agenda because they KNOW that people are so brainwashed, they don't know pertinent, truly controversial information even if it hits them in the face.

What is extremism? If people say they want to hurt people or objects, I say, "Not me! I'm a peacnik!" and walk away.

But are my thoughts extreme?

Why...because they ARE thoughts, not sound bytes that trickled down to me from the Defense Dept's Human Behavior Modeling Program? They reflect critical thinking and a modicum of REAL education...does that make me radical?

In their view, yes. Tyrants always go after the intellectuals, and to label people extremists is just one baby step away from t*rrorist and there you go (!) into one of Kagan's nicey-nice camps that are overseen by caring liberals.

WTF?

I guess I shot my mouth off pretty bad this time.

Ami knows I'm not usually like this.

Thank you Ami for reiterating some of my points here and just letting me speak my mind.

posted July 07, 2012 08:00 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
Just for the record Faith, I know exactly what you're talking about.

And I'll add I don't know who scares me more...the liberals that drink Obama's kool aid or the conservatives who shout Obama is "too soft" and needs to be even more draconian. (Just to be clear I didn't say ALL liberals and conservatives, just those who are like I described.)

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I want to give you the unofficial prize for the most balanced on on here

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posted July 07, 2012 11:17 AM            

Once again, you seem to think your big picture skills are superior to mine. I've been following everything for years. How is it that I, who proved a lot of your perceptions wrong, am unable to come to the same conclusion as you?

quote:

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Also, where on earth do you get the impression that in order for me to care about the fate of innocent people in the Middle East, I have to know someone there personally?

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One of your remarks tipped me off. I'm open to being wrong on this, but I'm pretty certain I hit the nail on the head here.

quote:

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I thought YOU were anti-w*r? I mean are you, or aren't you? If you ARE anti-w*r...why?

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I am generally anti-war, yes. Not explicitly anti-war, or solely anti-war, but if there are other ways of accomplishing a goal, war should be last on the list.

quote:

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And maybe you realize that the w*r is a fraud based on deception

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It's not always.

quote:

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And your drone statistics make no sense to me, O's been b*m bing the sh * t out of people over there.

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I didn't give any drone statistics. While I agree with you that the killing of innocents is reprehensible, do you think the number would be higher or lower if it hadn't been a drone strike?

quote:

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You've already pre-judged me as "conspiratorial" and you seem determined to prove your hunches right and peg me that way. It's irksome. I've read a lot about history and politics, my points are valid, and frankly you come off like a blowhard.

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I understand. Not the first time a person's been upset with me.

I have valid points as well, do I not? I've had something valuable to say on all of the points of yours that I've spoken on. You don't like my points, but my points are valid. Even the BUT that you've taken issue with now, is impractical for you to take issue with. Preventive detention has been a reality for some time, and it doesn't make sense for American forces to capture enemy combatants only to free them to engage us again in the same time frame of the conflict. At least Kagan is for legally defining what an enemy combatant is. The alternative is what should alarm you.

quote:

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Your choice: you can learn, but to do that, you will also learn that you've been had.

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posted July 07, 2012 11:43 AM            

quote:

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Faith,

Once again, you seem to think your big picture skills are superior to mine. I've been following everything for years. How is it that I, who proved a lot of your perceptions wrong, am unable to come to the same conclusion as you?

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posted July 07, 2012 01:19 PM            

i am completely anti-war. this is the time-honoured way of controlling those who have something we want, whether land, oil, or power of whatever kind, and it has ALWAYS been disgusting and shows a complete lack of empathy for the human beings who just happen to be in the way.

i agree that obama is not completely anti-war. i remember listening and watching him say iraq was the "wrong" war and that when he was pres he would find and kill osama bin laden...though he stumbled over saying it it was chilling...i remember thinking at the time, about the likelihood that bin laden was already dead and wondering whether he knew that and the stumble was over the act of lying/saying what he had been told to say...or if he really didn't know yet. of course it is possible that they really did kill bin laden in pakistan, but we will never know will we?

i believe firmly that we have many GOOD people running for office who do not know until they get to washington just how deadly and sinister the game is that they will have to play, how powerful the major lobbies are, and how much political brickwork they will have to beat their heads against before they can knock down that wall.

but as pointed out in an article i glanced at the other day, the military industrial complex has been sewing this world up for generations. the article mentioned that the cutbacks in military spending, miniscule as they are (military budget is still about HALF our total budget!), are also knocking down in the form of jobs lost, manufacturing lost, INCOME lost here at home. this is a huge motivator for most people, who only see as far as their budget will stretch to cover their arses and plates at dinner.

it is just not as simple as you like to think, from what i have seen. the civil war cost 600,000 lives and completely decimated vast areas of the country. food supplies were destroyed, shelter and businesses as well. are you willing to go there to effect the changes you want?

i want those changes too. i am hoping that obama is not a complete tool, there is evidence for AND against that hope, but i believe a wise president who actually wants to accomplish these reforms not only has to ensure that he will survive to do the job, but that the WAY he does it does not bring on fullscale revolution.

as i said elsewhere, kennedy was inspiring and laid the groundwork, but it was johnson who got it done, without the glamour but like a workhorse who knew who he had to bribe with what to get the necessary votes. and johnson was recorded saying that he had to leave office to get out from under the m/i complex and the pressures they put on him to create the "awful mess" that vietnam became...

since the propaganda machines on all sides (and i don't see just two sides of extremism, but many) will whip up those who are willing to be persuaded, i don't expect the PNAC people or any of them to go down without causing total mayhem. they have enjoyed playing puppeteers too long.

so...let's drop the idea that these people are easily and peacefully undermined. this is not iceland! and think about HOW it is to be done?

posted July 07, 2012 07:14 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
Ami, if you don't find the sense, then it's your issue not mine. You're not disproving my perspective. Those with your viewpoint are in the minority. Why should I give any credence to what you have to say on the matter?

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Whoever has the issue, I am not sure. I cannot follow your political reasoning at all. We will have to leave it at that. I appreciate that you have always spoken to me in a respectful and considerate tone. I think GU can share ideas but we don't have to put each other down, as you have never done to me!

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posted July 07, 2012 11:35 PM            

quote:

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How is it that I, who proved a lot of your perceptions wrong, am unable to come to the same conclusion as you?

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I have the perception that you are presumptuous. Who said you proved my perceptions wrong? I never conceded that. I don't know what you are even talking about.

I argued that O's establishment of Gitm* North demonstrates his willingness to bring t*rture closer to home. He DID buy that, and those WERE his stated intentions.

Whether or not it's open is a moot point. I was just criticizing you for asserting it was closed and using a 2009 article to corroborate that.

quote:

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am generally anti-war, yes. Not explicitly anti-war, or solely anti-war, but if there are other ways of accomplishing a goal, war should be last on the list.

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Thanks for clarifying.

I said, "And maybe you realize that the w*r is a fraud based on deception" and you replied, "It's not always." I was referring to our foreign policy since 2001, not w*r in general.

How you tease apart the "good" parts of the w*r from the fraudulent and deceptive is nothing I am interested in hearing about. It's all fraud to me.

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the U.S. isn't considered to be the most hostile country on the planet

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