posted July 07, 2012 11:42 PM            

quote:

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it is just not as simple as you like to think, from what i have seen. the civil war cost 600,000 lives and completely decimated vast areas of the country. food supplies were destroyed, shelter and businesses as well. are you willing to go there to effect the changes you want?

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I don't understand what you mean here.

Frankly I don't want to talk about the Civil W*r because it's generally so misunderstood, it's like opening Pandora's Box of misinformation just to "go there."

posted July 07, 2012 11:44 PM            

(Granted, exceptions exist, but they don't get promoted by the US nomenklatura and even the most liberal sources seem to ignore what the ACLU repeatedly puts out if it's in any way critical of the Obama administration, which is to say they ignore A LOT.)

Under both Bush and Obama what they say tends to contradict what the US media says, and often what are media often refuses to look into or ask about in the first place. Plenty of countries see us as disturbing and scary, and I mean countries like Spain (who won't send people, including suspected terrorists, over here because they see our justice system as barbaric and unfair) to Canada who issued a warning about traveling to the US (under Bush but given that things have only gotten worse since then I'd be surprised if they've retracted it).

What's surreal to me is I have an internet friend who lives in Argentina...a place of national ID cards and heavy political turmoil and corruption for her entire life (she wants to immigrate to the UK) but after visiting the USA and putting up with our TSA she said there's no way she's coming back here, the USA is too totalitarian for her taste. (She complained about her vacation to Cuba as well but at least they didn't seem as totalitarian to her as the USA did.)

The United Nations (as well as groups like Amnesty International) has listed several severe problems with the United States, and even China likes to lists our human rights abuses (just as our country does right back at them).

posted July 07, 2012 11:57 PM            

&

posted July 08, 2012 12:07 AM            

quote:

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Who said you proved my perceptions wrong? I never conceded that. I don't know what you are even talking about.

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posted July 08, 2012 12:43 AM            

do you actually think that war is ever about anything else? it is defensible when one is attacked, but it is always about resources and greed. though often SOLD TO THE PEOPLE as being about "religion" or "freedom", this is a pretty unchanging fact throughout human history.

and governments are for the most part protection rackets. the mafia entices as many followers as it coerces...the coersion generally comes AFTER something nice or good has been done. govts are mostly just mafias made legit. both will create something to be protected from and THEN offer protection.

posted July 08, 2012 06:20 AM            

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posted July 08, 2012 06:00 PM            

this has been one of the saving graces of the jewish people, that they have stuck to their faith without attempting to foist it on everyone in sight. now we have israel, who insists that "they hate us because we are jewish"..when really the dispute is over TERRITORY.

and when anyone, even a rabbi, says so...they are called ANTISEMITES and everyone is supposed to hate the critic for that instead of listening to what they say.

in the vatican they have imprisoned the pope's butler for supposedly writing a tell-all about the corruption there. the pope doesn't cry "antisemitism" but "sacrilege", it's not much of a difference is it?

posted July 09, 2012 06:38 AM            

Please, Feel free to ignore any posts which seem to be an attempt to get people to fight. I am ignoring a post on a subject which involves my heritage, so anyone can ignore anything

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posted July 09, 2012 07:01 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by katatonic:
no, religion is a tool used to get the people involved, to justify the aggression of the rulers, but it's still about resources and greed, power over others, whether to make them believe what you think they should (and thus put their money in YOUR hands) or behave as you think they should (by putting their money in your hands)

this has been one of the saving graces of the jewish people, that they have stuck to their faith without attempting to foist it on everyone in sight. now we have israel, who insists that "they hate us because we are jewish"..when really the dispute is over TERRITORY.

and when anyone, even a rabbi, says so...they are called ANTISEMITES and everyone is supposed to hate the critic for that instead of listening to what they say.

in the vatican they have imprisoned the pope's butler for supposedly writing a tell-all about the corruption there. the pope doesn't cry "antisemitism" but "sacrilege", it's not much of a difference is it?

i have no problem with faith, however once it is used as a political weapon it is no longer "faith" but "control". and thus it has been used since time immemorial.

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in my opinion religion...like everything made by humanity...can be used for good and evil

i wont deny there is a lot of corruption and munipulation in religious organizations but there are many that also helps us in many ways

such "evil" organizations sent food to the starving and helped people in need while also serving the community they existed in.... and those things are not to be put aside

an obvious example is here in my country israel

on one hand... the rabbanut organizes small gruops to send food pack to the poor and to soldiers serving in the IDF

on the other...they use their connections to allow jewish people from very religious families to not serve in the army thus they are actually escaping service and leaving the IDF without proper human resources

religion is like technology in a way...its can help us or be used to bring harm to others....unfortunaly many people standing at the heads of religious organizations today are more power-hungry rather than righteous

it cant be seen as one-sided and thus shouldnt be accused as such

posted July 09, 2012 08:10 AM            

I said I am ant-w*r. YOU are the one continually defending Obama, who is a w*rmonger.

posted July 09, 2012 08:11 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
Well, you're on the right track with talking about Gitmo North. I did prove you were wrong on Gitmo North. It never happened. Not only so, but it was not Obama's stated intention to bring torture closer to home. That's only something you've said, not something you've proven. As I tried to make clear earlier, Bush put those prisoners at Gitmo to deny them legal rights under our Constitution. Bringing them stateside would not have accomplished that goal. That's why Obama attempted to bring them stateside.

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You're just wrong.

posted July 09, 2012 08:12 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:
Kat,

I said I am ant-w*r. YOU are the one continually defending Obama, who is a w*rmonger.

No lectures please.

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posted July 09, 2012 08:13 AM            

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posted July 09, 2012 12:09 PM            

quote:

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You're just wrong.

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posted July 09, 2012 12:19 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
I'm not, and you haven't done much to speak to the inconsistency I've noted.

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With all candor, AG, you throw out smokescreen kinds of stats and macroeconomic concepts that make little sense.

You don't act like a disrespectful jerk, but I don't think anyone, except Kat, can understand what you are talking about.

Can anyone else?

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posted July 09, 2012 12:29 PM            

He goes through a painstaking amount of explination to make his points clear, and they are not emotion based, nor are his responses ever inflammatory or ego driven.

I don't see how anyone could find him "wrong", as what he presents, he does so in a rational and methodical way. He's never come out and said anything that wasn't able to be backed up, which I respect. He does not make blanket statements or give his "opinions" and try to pass those off as fact or truth.

I don't know why that is unclear, but that's just me. I am a triple Aquarian and logic and rationality are very important to me.

Undefendalbe opinion based posts are hard for me to understand.

But hey, we're all different!

posted July 09, 2012 12:38 PM            

It's always interesting to see all sides, IMO. Personally, it's the only way you can make a rational decision.

I choose not to make them at all, because it all seems like a giant game to me in the end..

posted July 09, 2012 12:39 PM            

I do not trust stats from places I do not trust, such as the government stats, so I don't even look at those, so that is one difference I have with AG.

I would have to trust a place such as the Heritage Foundation, Landmark legal etc.

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posted July 09, 2012 01:30 PM            

you want to moderate GU now, is that it? we already have a moderator and in my personal opinion you have taken over enough of this website.

you came here when it was plenty contentious. your "hero" jwhop is the originator of that contentiousness but you like to blame only those on the "other" side, as if we were not all in this together.

i suppose that you will continue to paint me as disruptive until i either leave or you bring me to such irritation that i lose it; be warned that i know how to control my temper and that you are not important enough to me to shut me up.

i saw what you said to juni the other day, accusing her of doing what you have done since you first came here. you tried to kick her off "your" thread because you wanted a platform to speak unchallenged. but this is an open discussion board, not your own personal site. go get your own and i will not bother you there.

posted July 09, 2012 01:39 PM            

i defend obama only from accusations that are based in rumour and the hatred of those who lost to him and will do everything they can to paint him as the devil. i have plenty of criticism of him but in this forum i am only standing against extremist suppositions with no proof behind them.

i am anti war. but i am not a politician. i don't have stomach for lies and double-dealing and don't really trust anyone who runs for president but i don't condemn anyone on circumstantial evidence, which is all anyone has produced here or elsewhere against obama.

posted July 09, 2012 01:44 PM            

that does not change the fact that religion has been used as an excuse for warmongering power grabs for most of human history. most people think THEIR god is THE god, and THEIR interpretation of the bible is THE interpretation, like ami...i just happen to disagree with that.

many of the people and even rulers who thus used religion actually believed that GOD IS ON OUR SIDE, and therefore they were right to persecute those of all other faiths. isn't that what people came to america to get away from?

not entirely, since many appear to have come here with the same mindset and belief that the natives were "heathen savages" allowed them to dehumanize and destroy them...in short, the puritans were just as bloody-minded toward others as the place they escaped from was toward them.

some might say this is human nature. i say it is ONLY A PART of human nature, that not everyone needs to KILL THE OPPOSITION, and it is high time we turned away from war.

posted July 09, 2012 01:52 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by katatonic:
as always, ami, you accuse those whose opinions are different from yours as being bullies and chronic arguers, though she disses everyone she can and then tries to pretend they are the offenders.

you want to moderate GU now, is that it? we already have a moderator and in my personal opinion you have taken over enough of this website.

you came here when it was plenty contentious. your "hero" jwhop is the originator of that contentiousness but you like to blame only those on the "other" side, as if we were not all in this together.

i suppose that you will continue to paint me as disruptive until i either leave or you bring me to such irritation that i lose it; be warned that i know how to control my temper and that you are not important enough to me to shut me up.

i saw what you said to juni the other day, accusing her of doing what you have done since you first came here. you tried to kick her off "your" thread because you wanted a platform to speak unchallenged. but this is an open discussion board, not your own personal site. go get your own and i will not bother you there.

until then, by all means keep trying to shut me up, and tell all your little friends that it is i who am the whole "problem" on GU. it won't work. knock yourself out.

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Now, you are the only bully, Kat. I am just telling it as it is, so people don't get put off by your nasty behavior and judge GU by you.

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posted July 09, 2012 02:06 PM            

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posted July 09, 2012 02:11 PM            

Facts or stats aren't a smokescreen. You're making them out that way, but they don't inherently have the quality you assign them. All of communiction is dealing in information. Information can be accurate or inaccurate, and the only way to go about proving things is by using things we can all verify. It's as simple as that. The way to discredit facts I present is by providing alternate "facts" that verifiably undermine what I've presented. If they come from Heritage or Landmark Legal, so be it. We can look at those as well.

posted July 09, 2012 02:12 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by katatonic:

i defend obama only from accusations that are based in rumour and the hatred of those who lost to him and will do everything they can to paint him as the devil. i have plenty of criticism of him but in this forum i am only standing against extremist suppositions with no proof behind them.

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Frankly I don't understand you. There is no enmity, I am just telling you, you don't make any sense to me.

What I have said against Obama is not based on rumor nor hatred. However, I get the impression that you and AG both deem anything critical of the President "rumor" or conspiratorial sensationalism.

The commander-in-chief DOES have the constitutional power to bring the troops home immediately. For me to want that is not naive, it's based on how the law is written.