posted November 13, 2012 06:20 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
Agreed. My apologies.

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Balance restored!! Cheers!

The real Randall's back!

posted November 13, 2012 06:26 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Faith:

Wit all due respect, NJ, that is over the top. He is NOT too good for this country.

What makes it a religious thing is, you can't say he does wrong without many of his defenders coming after you (it's like Jehovah's Witnesses, how they violate your space) trying to convert you, saying there must be something wrong with you (which is akin to, "You are in need of salvation!") if you mistakenly think Obama made some kind of error.

If you persist in thinking that he made an error, ANY ERROR, his defenders up their ante...you are not merely pessimistic, you are a hater. Full of negative energy. Probably a racist, birther, right-winger, elitist...

For many, you have to be labeled and dismissed as irrelevant, if you don't like Obama.

Which. Is. Totally !!!! Creepy !!!!

---

Oh Faith, think what you like. I believe in defending those who can't defend themselves, and in this situation that's the President. If only he could post here and speak for himself, I'm sure many questions could be answered. I've repeatedly stated that I measure this man based on his successes and his failures. I've got my issues with him as well, but he's human. I'm allowed to defend someone if I choose. Since when is defending someone considered an atrocity? Oh the hypocrisy!

posted November 13, 2012 07:00 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by juniperb:
NJ, thank you for answering! I don`t seriously "get it" but if it works for you...

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No problem Juniperb. I don't live my life based on some preconceived politically affiliated doctrine that outlines how a liberal or conservative should think or behave according to over arching standards. I guess it's the Aquarius Rising in me constantly thwarting conventional ideas of association! Anarchist ideas and liberal beliefs in a democratic society, NO WAY! Who would've thunk it? I guess I'm not a typical Libra, oops I meant liberal.

posted November 13, 2012 07:12 PM            

quote:

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I know you don't "get it" but I also know I don't need my beliefs or ideologies to make sense to anyone but myself.

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Fair enough. I was simply trying to make sense of the two but you`re statement clarifies your position here. Next time, I will assume

posted November 13, 2012 07:15 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by NativelyJoan:
I'm allowed to defend someone if I choose. Since when is defending someone considered an atrocity? Oh the hypocrisy!

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Defend whomever you like, it's just odd to me that you haven't conceded one point against him yet.

And when I see legions of people acting oddly in the same way, as if they've had a spell cast on them or something, I get a little freaked out. It was bad enough in 2008, but he's already shown what a fake he is, so to see it in 2012 is pretty disturbing.

But I like your spirit even if I can't understand what you are talking about.

Did you get your overactive crown chakra fixed, btw?

posted November 13, 2012 07:19 PM            

quote:

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An outrageous idea is purely based on one's perspective. Some would argue scientifically that Astrology is an outrageous idea. A far as climate change is concerned, you will find out you've been on the wrong side of that issue eventually.

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No, an outrageous statement can be measured. When Conservative pundits predicted a landslide victory for Romney, that was an outrageous statement. It avoided information that was available in preference of a wish.

I don't anticipate finding myself on the wrong side of global warming any time soon.

posted November 13, 2012 07:51 PM            

quote:

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Ok but you actually said, "Why don't you try writing him yourself?" Which is a little more confusing to me.

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I see now that I also added to the confusion. In my head I was asking "have you tried writing him" while actually writing the above. Thanks for clearing that up.

quote:

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Yes, and to give credit where it's due, I've always admired this about you and nominated you for an award on the LL End of the Year Awards thread because of it (before we got into this tangle.) But I still mean it, even if we're in a tangle.

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Thanks for telling me about the nomination. I posted there too

Psst, I'm going to share smth with you, and just hope I don't end up offending you

Even if I'd seen your nomination earlier, I'm afraid we'd have still tangled here ... not because I think differently about you, but because I'd still have needed the clarification on the one post, and to express that I was offended about the other.

I'm the same way with friends and loved ones in real life. The difference is, that because I know and understand people in real life better than the ones online, there's a lot more of taking the "high road" that you mentioned earlier. Still, if I was pushed to the point of being really offended (and I'm known for having tremendous patience with people), I would bring it up in a conversation, with the end objective of clearing the matter. I don't like letting things sit because the longer things fester, the more trust gets eroded. And once a matter is cleared, I return to a "pre-matter" state of mind.

So in getting into this entanglement here, two positive things have happened--

1) You told me about the nomination
2) I've understood you better and my trust and balance are restored.

Even friction can have its benefits

posted November 13, 2012 08:00 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
There's room in this armchair for another psychologist.

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posted November 13, 2012 08:07 PM            

You're doing a truly fantastic job of maintaining this thread and keeping up with responses, etc. Wow!

posted November 13, 2012 08:22 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Linda Jones:

Even if I'd seen your nomination earlier, I'm afraid we'd have still tangled here ... not because I think differently about you, but because I'd still have needed the clarification on the one post, and to express that I was offended about the other.

---

If I didn't already believe you are that kind of person, I wouldn't have nominated you!

Did you see my award? It was called something like "Person who can take a confusing mess and organize it so that we all understand: Linda Jones."

So that includes ALL messes, including with me. And I like that you drop things quickly after the confusion ends.

posted November 13, 2012 08:26 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Faith:
Defend whomever you like, it's just odd to me that you haven't conceded one point against him yet.

And when I see legions of people acting oddly in the same way, as if they've had a spell cast on them or something, I get a little freaked out. It was bad enough in 2008, but he's already shown what a fake he is, so to see it in 2012 is pretty disturbing.

But I like your spirit even if I can't understand what you are talking about.

Did you get your overactive crown chakra fixed, btw?

I bought a book on healing your chakras today, it reminded me of talking to you last year, in calmer forums.

---

But I have conceded. I acknowledged that he has had many accomplishments and has made many mistakes. But I follow that assessment with the understanding that he is just one humanly flawed man. You care a great deal about these "legions" of people, but they are just living their lives, I don't see how what they believe impacts you (at least not directly). We are entitled to our beliefs right? They might not make any sense to outsiders, but they make sense to us which is what matters most.

Oh and thanks for inquiring about my Crown Chakra. Once I got my Root Chakra under control through reworking my diet and lifestyle a couple months ago my Crown Chakra balanced out. How's that over active Heart Chakra treating you?

posted November 13, 2012 09:13 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by NativelyJoan:
But I have conceded.

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Which point(s) specifically, can you tell me? I must have missed it.

quote:

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Originally posted by NativelyJoan:

I acknowledged that he has had many accomplishments and has made many mistakes. But I follow that assessment with the understanding that he is just one humanly flawed man.

---

So is Romney. I don't see much difference between the two.

quote:

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Originally posted by NativelyJoan:

You care a great deal about these "legions" of people, but they are just living their lives, I don't see how what they believe impacts you (at least not directly).

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I take it personally because some of these civil liberties that are being eroded, I actually love, and feel vulnerable without. When people are cheering for someone who is threatening my/our freedom, that bothers me. Why wouldn't it?

quote:

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Originally posted by NativelyJoan:

We are entitled to our beliefs right? They might not make any sense to outsiders, but they make sense to us which is what matters most.

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I guess so, but I get freaked out when those beliefs ultimately pose dangers to other people, as I see things.

quote:

---

Originally posted by NativelyJoan:
Oh and thanks for inquiring about my Crown Chakra. Once I got my Root Chakra under control though reworking my diet and lifestyle a couple months ago my Crown Chakra balanced out. How's that over active Heart Chakra treating you?

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Good to hear you are better! And that gives me hope for myself. No improvement here that I can tell, but I did just get my book...finally....

quote:

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Originally posted by NativelyJoan:
Edit: I have Pluto in the 8th which I think that accounts for my fortitude in relation to my beliefs and tendency to have an overactive Crown. It comes with the territory (interesting though that Pluto doesn't tend to be the planet of disillusion, Neptune holds that territory quite nicely).

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Makes sense!

You meant, Neptune is the planet of delusion or illusion, though?

posted November 13, 2012 10:26 PM            

quote:

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Which point(s) specifically can you tell me? I must have missed it.

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See page 1 and 2 of this thread (and I included articles and links to support my concessions).

quote:

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So is Romney. I don't see much difference between the two.

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I actually never stated to the contrary about Romney. He's most definitely human and flawed, flawed, flawed. But he's not the President of the United States. I tend to use different standards to measure the actions of leaders of the nation then with former Governor's who left their state with dismal approval ratings. Yes, they are both human, but they have very different roles within the complex organism that is this nation and I'm mindful of that.

quote:

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I take it personally because some of these civil liberties that are being eroded, I actually love, and feel vulnerable without. When people are cheering for someone who is threatening my/our freedom, that bothers me. Why wouldn't it?

---

Do you not think these "legions" of people are aware of their civil liberties? Do you not think they also might take offense to the idea of their right's coming into jeopardy? Of course they do! And I'm sure they are aware of the possibility of having what little freedom they have within our society being stripped away from them (as we all remember it wasn't to long ago that many didn't have any rights at all, while others did). These people voted for President Obama because they expected change, they wanted work to be done. They expected it, and still do. His record sheet doesn't live up to his promises, that's a fact. These supporters of Obama aren't giving him a pass. Their vote to him came with a warning. That demands immigration reform, a stable economy, lowered unemployment, accessible healthcare, managing the deficit, ending these wars and finding more humane ways to fight them (ending all drone programs), and more green energy initiatives, and the list goes on. These people, these "legions" want the same things you want. But you resent them because they don't support who you support? Because they don't believe what you believe?

quote:

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I guess so, but I get freaked out when those beliefs ultimately pose dangers to other people, as I see things.

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It's not their beliefs you or anyone should be afraid of (frankly because they are entitled to believe what ever the heck they want), it's their actions. Yet, what have they done to threaten you besides support someone you don't support? Since the beginning of time religious groups and authoritative powers have used the same sentiment that you've expressed above regarding "danger". They used it for instilling fear within the masses in order to gain control and implement their agendas. I personally get freaked out when people continue to call wolf in a dark theater, over and over again. For what reason, who knows, but the more they preach "danger" the more I get suspicious of the intentions of these individuals and I begin to wonder what are they trying to prove? And to whom? And why do they care so much? What's in it for them?

quote:

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You meant, Neptune is the planet of delusion or illusion, though?

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posted November 14, 2012 01:43 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by NativelyJoan:
No problem Juniperb. I don't live my life based on some preconceived politically affiliated doctrine that outlines how a liberal or conservative should think or behave according to over arching standards. I guess it's the Aquarius Rising in me constantly thwarting conventional ideas of association! Anarchist ideas and liberal beliefs in a democratic society, NO WAY! Who would've thunk it? I guess I'm not a typical Libra, oops I meant liberal.

I know you don't "get it" but I also know I don't need my beliefs or ideologies to make sense to anyone but myself. And I've always wondered why so many people cared? Are they trying to make a point, use my beliefs as a way to challenge or ridicule me? Or are they truly interested in what I have to say. Anywhere but in GU I'd assume they'd have honorable intentions.

---

I wasn't ridiculing you, I was trying to understand you. I'm a mix of fire & air and I try hard to not only get to the truth of the matter but to understand how other people are processing their information (which also help to get at the truth of the matter because that helps me to understand another way of looking at something...and making sure it's not "blind faith" which I see as antithetical to the truth, or as one described faith, "believing what you know to be false").

And there are also kids (and a few older people) who are authoritarian leftists but like to call themselves "anarchists" because it sounds more cool to stand up for liberation rather than trying to impose a vision on others who don't share their views, and I suspect it's a similar process of rationalization similar to those right wingers who seek to control society in their own way but find it sounds cooler to say they're after "liberty" rather than dominion. Even so, in my experience these types tend to bash Democrats (whom they tend to call "apologists for Capitalism") as much as Republicans and I was wondering if just maybe you were a new variant I hadn't encountered before...I didn't think so, but it was worth considering, not so much to judge but as to gain another puzzle piece in understanding the human condition (and how our minds work).

And even if you're not a variant of this then asking what I did would hopefully still get me closer to understand how your mind is processing reality, especially as it's odd enough that it makes me think your perspective comes from a direction I've never seen before and if so I want to know about it...not only to better understand people but (if I decide it removes a blind spot) begin using that perspective myself (as I do so many perspectives) in trying to get at the truth of the matter on Obama and many other realities.

posted November 14, 2012 02:04 AM            

America must avoid the temptation to indulge in vote bank politics in 2016, and a positive Obama performance in these four years will surely help.

I would also like to see Bobby Jindal MERITORIOUSLY become a VP or even as a Presidential Candidate. This guy can dish out intellectual punishment to the religious right wing lunatics and spoke for every sensible republican when he said: "Do not insult the intelligence of the voters".

posted November 14, 2012 02:11 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by PixieJane:
Even so, in my experience these types tend to bash Democrats (whom they tend to call "apologists for Capitalism") as much as Republicans and I was wondering if just maybe you were a new variant I hadn't encountered before...I didn't think so, but it was worth considering.

You've made it pretty clear that you're making a leap of faith here and jump around actual incidents AND that you feel you're being personally attacked (rather than your faith challenged) so I won't bother trying to communicate with you on this topic anymore.

---

But you didn't ask me to give you a fact sheet. You asked me why I'm so quick to defend the President or in your words "why are you so strongly on board the Obama train?"

A very broad and general question. One that was preceded by an inquiry into previous statements I've made about being an anarchist. I answered why I've defended him on this thread and why I hold a mash up of political ideologies. You want to categorize me into a political bracket, but I don't fit into one. You state you are trying not to make an assumption about me, and then conclude in the above statements that this is exactly what you're planning on doing. Holding anarchist ideas, doesn't impinge on my liberal or democratic beliefs. I'm an amalgam (a mix of a great deal of things). Oh and don't worry about me feeling attacked, you'll know when I'm feeling attacked. I just didn't know so many people cared about what I had to say.

posted November 14, 2012 02:56 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by PixieJane:
But I gave you facts (such as about the FISA bill and his hiring lobbyists) for you to work with so that you could SHOW me HOW you were coming to your beliefs but you just say things like "if Obama were here I'm sure he could say." IOW, that was my asking for a "fact sheet."

And I wasn't trying to put you in a political bracket, I was seeing that you didn't fit into one and was thus trying to figure out how you were thinking.

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Got it, sometimes the actual words need to be stated just to ensure the message gets across. In regards to the "if Obama were here I'm sure he could say," that's being taken out of context. I was responding to Faith about why I felt the need to defend the President, it wasn't meant to be an excuse to be evasive.

I don't support him on the FISA bill, it was a shortsighted error made by the President. I'm sure he's aware of that, or maybe he's not. I assume there was political leveraging and negotiating that lead to that decision (who knows), or maybe as you assume it was purely his choice. I doubt that. Don't fault me for paying a little to much attention in political science during undergrad, but it's all about political clout in Washington. What happens behind those closed doors the public will never know. We can just assume

If you wanted to figure out how I was thinking you should have asked me directly. I would have actually gone into more concrete detail about my ideologies and beliefs and painted a comprehensible picture for you to better understand. But it seemed like you had ill intentions, or at least preconceived judgments you were hoping to validate. But that's just what I got from the tone in your rhetoric. GU is a very hostile place, I'm not about to layout my profound political theories and ideologies, and a fact sheet about this President actions reluctantly. It would be like wolves devouring a dead sheep. If you asked me these questions in any other part of LL I would have answered explicitly. But I'm trying to stay out of the barrel of the gun that is GU by being elusive. Sorry Pixie Jane if that has lead you to believe I'm making a leap in judgment or faith.

posted November 14, 2012 03:23 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by iQ:
In 2016, minority vote share is going to be 3% more.

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posted November 14, 2012 07:26 AM            

I'll be winding down our debate here soon because I think there is little chance of us understanding each other's political bent. So don't worry about the length below, I won't keep doing it. That's not to say I don't look forward to talking to you on other forums, about other things, sometime.

quote:

---

Originally posted by NativelyJoan:
See page 1 and 2 of this thread (and I included articles and links to support my concessions).

---

I looked in vain for your concessions there, and I'm not going to pour through articles looking for criticism, not knowing if you even subscribe to all that's being said.

I don't think it's such a hard question: what exactly did he disappoint you in? Anything at all?

quote:

---

Originally posted by NativelyJoan:
Do you not think these "legions" of people are aware of their civil liberties? Do you not think they also might take offense to the idea of their right's coming into jeopardy? Of course they do!

---

What proof is there that they care? Are they protesting the Patriot Act still? Writing blog entries against drone attacks and the NDAA and the TSA? Worried about the militarization of our police? All the signs that in other places and other times would be seen as clear indications that we are increasingly becoming a police state? I haven't seen them doing that; I've seen them devoting much more energy to trying to exonerate the President for every controversial thing he's done.

I would be delighted to see some people who are starry-eyed about Obama (and that's who I'm talking about, with these "legions") who are meanwhile fighting for civil liberties and INFORMED about the scope of the threats. Of course, there is more to civil liberty than gay marriage and abortion, so when I say I'd love to see evidence they are fighting for civil liberties, I meant for all people.

quote:

---

Originally posted by NativelyJoan:

His record sheet doesn't live up to his promises, that's a fact. These supporters of Obama aren't giving him a pass. Their vote to him came with a warning.

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Okay. Where are the warnings? Can I read them anywhere?

quote:

---

Originally posted by NativelyJoan:

That demands immigration reform, a stable economy, lowered unemployment, accessible healthcare, managing the deficit, ending these wars and finding more humane ways to fight them (ending all drone programs), and more green energy initiatives, and the list goes on. These people, these "legions" want the same things you want.

---

You don't seem to have read many of my posts in this forum; I'm more of a libertarian and don't expect the government to solve all our problems. So those people don't necessarily want what I want. I just want the government to stop creating problems.

The threats to civil liberty that Obama's faithful aren't talking about enough (IMO) include incarceration for minor offenses, surveillance (since when am I not entitled to any privacy??), expansion of the TSA onto roads and into public venues, creation of interrogation squads (HIGG) without assurance that they will target Americans, attacks on freedom of speech and the right to protest, putting people on No-Fly lists without informing them why, passing bills that are so long nobody even reads them, inflating our money with these corporate welfare bailouts, undermining our security...well, let's just say, the gung-ho Obama supporters generally don't seem to care about anything serious unless, maybe, it's in the context of criticizing the Republicans.

quote:

---

Originally posted by NativelyJoan:
But you resent them because they don't support who you support? Because they don't believe what you believe?

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If I said that I ardently support a Republican who would like to put all homosexuals in prison, what would you think of me from that point on? You'd resent me, wouldn't you?

So if I see signs that Obama wants to put other innocent people in prison, like political dissidents, via preventive detention (remember, Obama put neocon Elena Kagan in the Supreme Court, and she is vocally in favor of preventive detention, which is no wonder, considering she's a Kagan) ...isn't it natural for me to resent the people who seem to support such measures? After all, I am a political dissident. An adamantly peaceful one, but still, who knows how they categorize the people they are constantly spying on.

quote:

---

Originally posted by NativelyJoan:
It's not their beliefs you or anyone should be afraid of (frankly because they are entitled to believe what ever the heck they want), it's their actions. Yet, what have they done to threaten you besides support someone you don't support?

---

By supporting a candidate who threatens my civil liberties...and that is an action: going to the voting booth is an action, writing on the internet about their support is an action...they either deliberately or unwittingly encourage changes that worsen my life.

quote:

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Originally posted by NativelyJoan:
I personally get freaked out when people continue to call wolf in a dark theater, over and over again.

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Ok, so to you it's "calling wolf," but to others like me, there IS a wolf and there are real victims...like the people killed by drones and the people rounded up in Obama's drug raids, where he trumped state law with federal law, and the people caught up in revolutions in the Middle East that have been fomented by US forces under the direction of Obama. That's not a complete list.

quote:

---

Originally posted by NativelyJoan:

For what reason, who knows, but the more they preach "danger" the more I get suspicious of the intentions of these individuals and I begin to wonder what are they trying to prove? And to whom? And why do they care so much? What's in it for them?

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They are trying to prove there is a danger because there is one. The signs are all over the place, you just have to open your eyes and acknowledge it. As with any danger, people care if it poses a threat to them. It's a curiosity to me that you don't see how obvious that is. (?)

It's hard for me to talk about these things. It cuts deep for me. So now I've gone over this with both you and AG and I have no expectation that either of you will see where I'm coming from. You will probably just write me off as paranoid.

And I will continue thinking that Obama's supporters just refuse to do their homework.

posted November 14, 2012 12:47 PM            

quote:

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they either deliberately or unwittingly encourage changes that worsen my life.

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This is probably your most debatable statement in this post. How do these things you speak of actually, measurably worsen your life?