posted May 08, 2013 02:11 AM            

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Originally posted by jellyfishtry:
'symbolic significance' what is that lol? yep i read a lot of your posts and understand where you are coming from often.

Thing is with US and guns, i think us 'foreigners' can't really do or say anything.

It's like the people there are way far too deep in a trance state that started a long time ago (how can they not be? with the media and pressure and etc etc and professionals who are paid to make sure the big companies can keep them thinking what they want them to think etc)when it comes to guns, that nothing we say or do can actually go through to them...

watching to see where it all ends, and heaven forbid it ends like a lot of outsiders see it ending(there are guns and an obsession with them involved after all)....I suppose we still can pray for something better to wake up and happen over there though

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lol i guess america is a universe into itself (hopefully not one that will implode)

when i said symbolic i meant that american associate guns with security and show of strength (big guns for big men....i guess you do have a point with the size issue XD).

posted May 08, 2013 02:15 AM            

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Originally posted by doommlord:
whats interesting is where one can find the real unbiased statistics.

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If you know of any, please share. I once went to a lot of effort to find such statistics, including with the aid of a reference librarian, and they were all questionable (or at least sloppy and/or vague enough to be pointless).

Though there was one group...wish I could recall their name...they didn't collect stats, however they were skilled fact checkers and the like that kicked BS to the curb, and they do it for all kinds of issues. They tore up the statistics in More Guns Less Crime without mercy (and the author did admit to manipulating and even inventing some stats later on in an interview, though he "thought they were about right" and explained it as taking a short cut), but no one could accuse them of being biased because right about the same time they attacked an antigun book which was trying to show all the common arguments in favor of the 2A were false and THAT book was ripped to shreds even more than the pro-gun book was (and IIRC they even showed the anti-gun author willfully lied not just with stats but with historical letters & documents). That was many years ago and I forget the name of the group (and as both sides had egg on their face neither side promoted them for fear of people finding how dirty their own side was as well, so they didn't get a lot of public exposure), which is a pity as they were the only group I was certain was being unbiased as possible, and who simply showed the facts (and exposed the BS) without promoting any conclusions (other than how trustworthy an author was).

posted May 08, 2013 04:29 AM            

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Originally posted by doommlord:
lol i guess america is a universe into itself (hopefully not one that will implode)

when i said symbolic i meant that american associate guns with security and show of strength (big guns for big men....i guess you do have a point with the size issue XD).

also owning guns is considered very "american" and being "american" is also on obssession there.

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lol very well written!! hmmm have you watched "century of the self?" all it took was one little action in the 1920's (devised by Freud's nephew who was in marketing)associating smoking cigarettes with the statue of liberty, and suddenly smoking was no longer a no-no for US women, instead in a second it became something desirable.

now if we can think of something like that for guns, and 'Americanize it' it'd be great...
There are more violent countries around the world than the US and a gun had never solved a single problem on Earth but sometimes made it worst, ....Oscar Pistorius.

posted May 08, 2013 04:39 AM            

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Originally posted by jellyfishtry:
a gun had never solved a single problem on Earth but sometimes made it worst, ....Oscar Pistorius.

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posted May 08, 2013 06:01 AM            

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George Washington said a free people should be armed to guard against government tyranny. (False)
Experts told us Washington called for a trained militia to defend the new nation, not a citizens’ stand against their own government.

Since 1968, "more Americans have died from gunfire than died in … all the wars of this country's history." (True)
We tallied about 1.4 million firearm deaths compared with 1.2 million in war. The number of gunfire deaths includes suicides.

"Switzerland (where the government) issues every household a gun . . . has the lowest gun related crime rate of any civilized country in the world!!!" (Pants on Fire)
A Swiss researcher told us claims like this are "absurd." The lowest gun-related crime rate? Not for homicide. Meanwhile, the likelihood of a gun being involved in a robbery or an assault in Switzerland is lower in several other countries. In short, this claim appears to be completely fabricated.

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posted May 08, 2013 08:22 AM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
Are you (or Pistorius) defining problem as something global like "world hunger" or "genocide" (though worth noting many types of ethnic cleansing started with disarming them or even the population in general first) or "AIDS"? Because guns sure have solved many single problems on an individual scale (some would say there have been "good wars" as well that ended slavery and liberated prisoners in death camps, too). I can understand if you think that in general they cause more problems than they solve, but it blows me away that someone would actually assert they've never solved a problem EVER.

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Ghandi didn't use a gun to de-colonize India and free his people, and that was no mean feat, but again another example of someone killed with them.

It blows my mind that anyone thinks guns are the only solution to some things, or that it may not have been them in the first place that turned free people into slaves, or put others in prisoner camps, or etc etc etc...or like in the other thread caused a parent heartache as one child killed his sibling.
again will say don't live where you do, so won't understand this obsession with guns...maybe ever lol

posted May 08, 2013 08:27 AM            

PS This does not apply to Mr France who has gotten my respect of late( even though he may not care )

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posted May 08, 2013 08:34 AM            

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
I love how people who know nothing about the American situation with guns blow lots and lots of fetid hot air, until they have to be corrected

PS This does not apply to Mr France who has gotten my respect of late( even though he may not care )

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posted May 08, 2013 01:23 PM            

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Originally posted by doommlord:
yet you go and blow your air about the muslims and the middle east while having no idea of what really happens and instead base yourself on the empty words of biased people...

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...

it's amazing isn't it, people who have "all the answers in the world"

posted May 08, 2013 04:00 PM            

I find it kind of funny, like when one California remarked on Granny having 4 guns (all gifts or inheritances IIRC) and my shrugging it off with, "Yeah, she's not that into guns the way others are," and then seeing her blink in shock as she realized 4 wasn't considered a lot there.

If you grow up with guns and yet no one you know has ever been harmed by them then it's hard to see why others are scared of them (of course they're dangerous if mishandled, so's gas & electricity, both of which have killed entire families when quickly destroying a house). People realize accidents happen, but people die in cars, pools (what have pools ever done beside serve as a status symbol and lawyer bait when some child from another home sneaks onto the property to use it while you're away and drowns?), and the like. The Californian I mentioned who was disturbed by my granny having 4 guns lost her husband in a car accident but she still doesn't have a problem with cars, and that's in large part because she was raised with them so she accepts the good with the bad.

posted May 08, 2013 06:37 PM            

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That's true as far as it goes.

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I know.

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And why say something so surreal in the first place?

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Look at the context:

"Proof positive that more guns equal less crime." - Randall

"By logic, Randall, no guns also equal no gun crime." - AG

It's pretty simple.

He was trying to make the case that when EVERYBODY has guns there is "less crime." (I'll ignore the embellishment of burglaries and robberies being almost down to zero in a town that barely had any crime to begin with.) I was making the equal and opposite statement for contrast. You don't look at one side without looking at the other.

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It's simply not going to happen.

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That's fair to say in the American mindset of today. It doesn't disprove what I said, though.

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The world was plenty horrific & violent (including with projectiles) long before the first gun was invented, too.

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And very well could be again. Homemade bombs aren't that difficult. I just saw something about the plastic water bottle bombs. People can do a lot of messed up stuff if they want to.

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That hypothetical Utopia isn't real.

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The point is:

Take any law. Take any issue made better by the law, and then unrestrict that law and see if you get better results.

"There was a whole lot of theft and robbery in our city, so the city council went ahead and made thieving legal for everyone. That way if you were robbed, you could turn around and rob someone else. We don't want the criminals to have an unfair advantage over everyone else."

"Child abuse is a real problem in our town. We really weren't sure what we should do about it, so we decided we'd just make it legal. Then the behavior can just be assimilated into our culture, and it won't be a problem anymore. Makes sense, right?"

"People were jaywalking all over the place. It's like crosswalks didn't even exist. We decided that something needed to be done. Something thoughtful. So, we decided to legalize jaywalking, so criminals and non-criminals alike could jaywalk. Now you can jaywalk anywhere. Traffic's tough, but that's the price we pay for liberty."

Louis C. K. - If Murder Were Legal

You know we have a guaranteed Constitutional right to freedom of speech in America, too, right? That doesn't prevent the punishment on libel. Constitutional rights aren't safe from regulation.

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I love how people who know nothing about the American situation with guns blow lots and lots of fetid hot air, until they have to be corrected

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quote:

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yet you go and blow your air about the muslims and the middle east while having no idea of what really happens and instead base yourself on the empty words of biased people...

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posted May 08, 2013 06:55 PM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
It might be worth noting that many have seen guns at the very least (plenty have used them for positive or at least fun purposes, too) but not violence or other tragedy involved with them (just like many have seen and used cars without knowing anyone personally grievously injured or killed by them). I'm pretty sure this is part of why we're comfortable with them (not to be confused with obsessed, though many are that as well, just as only some car owners are obsessed with their cars). I was raised with guns constantly in the background, but I've also seen Californians (including one member of White Aryan Resistance whom I'd have thought would've gained some familiarity with guns) struggle with accepting how integrated they were into Texas.

I find it kind of funny, like when one California remarked on Granny having 4 guns (all gifts or inheritances IIRC) and my shrugging it off with, "Yeah, she's not that into guns the way others are," and then seeing her blink in shock as she realized 4 wasn't considered a lot there.

If you grow up with guns and yet no one you know has ever been harmed by them then it's hard to see why others are scared of them (of course they're dangerous if mishandled, so's gas & electricity, both of which have killed entire families when quickly destroying a house). People realize accidents happen, but people die in cars, pools (what have pools ever done beside serve as a status symbol and lawyer bait when some child from another home sneaks onto the property to use it while you're away and drowns?), and the like. The Californian I mentioned who was disturbed by my granny having 4 guns lost her husband in a car accident but she still doesn't have a problem with cars, and that's in large part because she was raised with them so she accepts the good with the bad.

Granted, I agreed with the Californian that Granny should get some AC (which she doesn't have, and Texas heat waves are deadly to the elderly), even if that means selling a couple of guns...but then Granny grew up without AC so she appreciates the concern, but doesn't need one to consume power (it's also true that many elderly who die in the worst of summer or winter have the means to counter it but try too hard to save on power, thus not using it) as she's gotten along fine so far...

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LOL that is a funny story with the granny lol.
But again it is about perspective. one of the countries i lived in i remember cars being the number one cause of death for it's young local population. So the gov't there did go a little beserk with hefty fines and road plans and radars...and yes sure people still die from it, but has made a lot of people there more conscious of their driving.

But the thing with cars, and gas and etc...they do kill when mishandled, but there intention and the purpose of why they were invented was to make life more easy/convenient....guns come across as only being created to protect/attack via harming or worst killing another person.

ironically in my own country, when crime rose significantly (and it isn't the safest country on the planet, but much safer than our neighbors) the population didn't run to buy guns thinking it'll make them safe...instead pressure was put on the government to find out the root causes of this violence. is it poverty, lack of jobs, desperation, a screwed up system and group psyche that no longer allows a kid to know wrong from right?i mean those who want to kill will just do it, with whatever means, but addressing some of the above may really lessen the amount of unfortunate incidents...

posted May 08, 2013 07:58 PM            

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
Take any law. Take any issue made better by the law, and then unrestrict that law and see if you get better results.

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Ok...decriminalization of drugs in Portugal yielded better results:
http://www.businessinsider.com/portugal-drug-policy-decriminalization-works-2012-7

Similar results were seen in the US over alcohol prohibition (one reason many, including at least a few cops & judges, want to follow Portugal's example) where alcohol went from being a controlled substance to fully legalized, which allowed people to seek legal help, get a safer product, and was a catastrophe to the gangsters fighting over its control in the black market. Btw, if you could eradicate all drugs (including alcohol) in the US, violence and accidental death (including with guns) would drop drastically. More:
http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/the-uplifters-try-it-again#axzz2SkdLI5kZ

And I could point out how gun prohibition failed to stop violence in violent countries, too, including many parts of the USA.

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
Louis C. K. - If Murder Were Legal

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Guns aren't legalized murder. Murder is still prosecuted, and crime done with guns is often prosecuted even harder (and their right to bear arms is revoked along with many other rights). Calling self-defense (and defense of other) murder (which often doesn't even involve anyone being killed) is like calling medication "drug abuse" or surgery "assault."

posted May 08, 2013 08:06 PM            

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Originally posted by jellyfishtry:
LOL that is a funny story with the granny lol.
But again it is about perspective. one of the countries i lived in i remember cars being the number one cause of death for it's young local population. So the gov't there did go a little beserk with hefty fines and road plans and radars...and yes sure people still die from it, but has made a lot of people there more conscious of their driving.

But the thing with cars, and gas and etc...they do kill when mishandled, but there intention and the purpose of why they were invented was to make life more easy/convenient....guns come across as only being created to protect/attack via harming or worst killing another person.

ironically in my own country, when crime rose significantly (and it isn't the safest country on the planet, but much safer than our neighbors) the population didn't run to buy guns thinking it'll make them safe...instead pressure was put on the government to find out the root causes of this violence. is it poverty, lack of jobs, desperation, a screwed up system and group psyche that no longer allows a kid to know wrong from right?i mean those who want to kill will just do it, with whatever means, but addressing some of the above may really lessen the amount of unfortunate incidents...

when we see these root causes dealt with is when we start feeling safe....but again every other person you meet there is a psychologist so makes sense that this is how many would see things as opposed to how they see it in the US

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I do admit, I'd LOVE it if our fascination with violence was addressed. I think I mentioned earlier how a New York Pizza place celebrates NY state with pix of mobsters (pimps, murderers, extortionists, black market including illegal drugs & weapons, etc) and it gets no comment because it's so ubiquitous. I'm not saying if we got rid of all these violent images, video games, etc, that violence would drop (it might even rise due to psychological factors as well as peripheral ones like people playing video games in their home aren't in the same room with others so that it's just isn't worth getting out of their chair to track someone down to kill, especially as they're too busy trying to beat their last score), but the love of being the Alpha. It's in our government, our churches, our sports, our entertainment, everywhere, and the root cause of that needs to be addressed & resolved, not just the fruits that manifest in everything from who we admire to direct action.

posted May 08, 2013 08:35 PM            

That's true of the Netherlands, too, where drugs are concerned. I don't know that the stats bear out in the case of legal guns versus illegal guns.

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And I could point out how gun prohibition failed to stop violence in violent countries, too, including many parts of the USA.

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I don't think anti-gun people are so naive as to think violence would be stopped. I think the goal has always been less chance of murder, suicide, and accidental injury.

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Guns aren't legalized murder.

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posted May 09, 2013 12:49 AM            

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Originally posted by PixieJane:
I do admit, I'd LOVE it if our fascination with violence was addressed. I think I mentioned earlier how a New York Pizza place celebrates NY state with pix of mobsters (pimps, murderers, extortionists, black market including illegal drugs & weapons, etc) and it gets no comment because it's so ubiquitous. I'm not saying if we got rid of all these violent images, video games, etc, that violence would drop (it might even rise due to psychological factors as well as peripheral ones like people playing video games in their home aren't in the same room with others so that it's just isn't worth getting out of their chair to track someone down to kill, especially as they're too busy trying to beat their last score), but the love of being the Alpha. It's in our government, our churches, our sports, our entertainment, everywhere, and the root cause of that needs to be addressed & resolved, not just the fruits that manifest in everything from who we admire to direct action.

Of course it would be nice if the same people concerned with death by guns were just as concerned by all the kids driven to suicide every year from bullying or innocents killed by drones, too. Heck, even questioning the role of household pools seems appropriate, too. OTOH, it would also be nice if like those who think the Bible and guns should be taught in school also promoted the teaching of first aid, encouraged actual charity (and not to a church), how to use needle & thread, and the like as well, and for that matter could see the failure of abstinence only sex ed (you know, because abstinence before marriage is the only acceptable moral when it comes to sex, but not when it comes to guns, alcohol, and tobacco!) and promote teaching of safe sex just as they would safe gun handling & driver's ed (to demystify it, and prevent tragic mistakes & carelessness).

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posted May 09, 2013 07:32 AM            

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posted May 09, 2013 08:12 AM            

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Originally posted by Ami Anne:
Honestly, there seems like there is a real dearth of logic and common sense in liberals when it comes to guns. If one thing is bad about these current times it is the lack of an internal compass in people.

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i dont think you used the term right.

internal compass is exactly what it is...internal... and does not correspond to certain "ideals" that are shared by a group (well some are passed through socialization but you get the idea).

posted May 09, 2013 10:24 AM            

Both logic and common sense dictate that a criminal willing to use a weapon has HUGE strategic advantages over a person that merely has a gun for protection. The criminal has already made the decision to put their life on the line. That can't be said of someone startled to find themselves held up.

For instance, an armed mother with children would be smarter not to get into a shoot out, than to get into one. She's got to protect not only her own life, but that of her family. Her best bet, being armed, is not letting on that she's armed, and hoping that she can get to her weapon secretly. If she just goes for her gun the consequences might show that she won't be around for her children. These heavy, life-changing decisions have an effect. That's why most businesses endorse cooperation if ever threatened with a gun.

posted May 09, 2013 05:51 PM            

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
Ami would quite simply be a victim of a criminal with a gun, even if she had a gun.

Both logic and common sense dictate that a criminal willing to use a weapon has HUGE strategic advantages over a person that merely has a gun for protection. The criminal has already made the decision to put their life on the line. That can't be said of someone startled to find themselves held up.

For instance, an armed mother with children would be smarter not to get into a shoot out, than to get into one. She's got to protect not only her own life, but that of her family. Her best bet, being armed, is not letting on that she's armed, and hoping that she can get to her weapon secretly. If she just goes for her gun the consequences might show that she won't be around for her children. These heavy, life-changing decisions have an effect. That's why most businesses endorse cooperation if ever threatened with a gun.

A criminal worth their salt will remind the person they're holding up of the consequences that could take place if the victim tries something (just as a cop would with a criminal).

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posted May 10, 2013 03:17 PM            

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Originally posted by Randall:
If you pull a gun to a stranger in your home, do not hesitate, do not communicate, do not say "freeze" or anything else while you attempt to call the police...aim center body mass, and shoot to kill.

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posted May 10, 2013 03:25 PM            

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
I disagree PJ. I mean, yes it's true that we've seen that from Hollywood, but that doesn't restrict the behavior to Hollywood. Just because a person is a criminal doesn't mean that they can't have an ounce of strategy in how they go about things. It doesn't mean that they could not have learned that the person with more to lose generally backs down.

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