Lindaland
  Global Unity 2.0
  Obamacare provision: Forced Home Inspections (Page 2)

Post New Topic  Post A Reply
profile | register | preferences | faq

UBBFriend: Email This Page to Someone!
This topic is 5 pages long:   1  2  3  4  5 
next newest topic | next oldest topic
Author Topic:   Obamacare provision: Forced Home Inspections
PixieJane
Moderator

Posts: 2843
From: CA
Registered: Oct 2010

posted August 16, 2013 10:28 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for PixieJane     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AcousticGod:
an overly cynical opinion that modest State programs are going to morph into some oppressive, currently illegal system of warrantless invasions. There's no rationale whatsoever for such an extreme view.

Actually, there is reason to believe it. Already the law abiding have suffered in numerous ways at the hands of the state. Example:
http://reason.com/archives/2001/02/01/doctors-orders

quote:
For uncertainty about a nail, a child was nearly lost. Last February, 5-year-old Anthony Mitchell and his big brother Dwayne were visiting their dad in Indianapolis. While dashing around playing cops and robbers with his brother, Anthony accidentally stepped on a nail protruding from a bunk bed leaning against a wall. The nail pierced his foot, causing a little bleeding and some lingering pain. When Anthony's mom, Pam Anderson, picked the boys up to take them back home to Terre Haute, about 50 miles away, she thought the injury probably wasn't that big a deal. She decided that if Anthony was still hurting by the time they got home, she'd take him to the hospital there. A doctor could make sure that no piece of anything had broken off, and a tetanus shot might not be a bad idea.

When they got home, Anthony was still complaining of some foot pain, so Anderson took her son to the emergency room at Terre Haute's Union Hospital. She assumed that if they didn't find anything in his foot, they'd bandage him up and send him home. But Anthony, as kids are prone to do, got his words a little mixed up. A doctor heard him saying something about stepping on "a needle" at his dad's. Anderson overheard a doctor say something about calling Child Protective Services (CPS). Worried, she called in her mother, Pamela Taliaferro. Anthony's grandma came to the hospital and, in front of a doctor, asked Anthony, "Now, what happened back at your papa's?"

"I stepped on a needle, Granny-you know, the kind of needle you hammer in a board."

While they were waiting for CPS to show up at the hospital, a doctor called Anthony's dad and asked him what had happened to his son. Dwayne Mitchell told them his son had stepped on a nail. "When the doctor hung up the phone with Anthony's dad," Anderson recalls, "I heard him say pretty loudly, '**** !' He already had called in CPS, and now he was realizing there wasn't any reason for it. I know what they were thinking. They instantly make the leap: black-needle-drugs-AIDS."

Anderson's hunch proved correct. The hospital had already given Anthony a dose of AZT, the DNA-chain terminator widely prescribed as an anti-AIDS drug. Terre Haute CPS agents arrived and, despite a statement from Anthony's older brother that corroborated the nail story, decided that the doctor had done the right thing, and that Anthony should keep taking AZT just in case the boy had stepped on an AIDS-infected needle. The agents then sent Anderson and Anthony home with two bottles of AZT pills, with instructions to give the drug to Anthony and see a doctor at a clinic in a few days for a check-up. CPS agents warned her that if she didn't bring Anthony back to the doctor, they might have to come take Anthony away from her. For his protection.

"I took Anthony to the clinic," Anderson says. "The receptionist said the doctor couldn't see me right then. I said, 'I'm not leaving until he sees me. They told me they'd take my son from me if he didn't see Anthony.' She tells me I'll have to wait two hours. I waited. What else could I do? The doctor finally comes in and asks how Anthony is doing on the medicine. I said 'I'm not giving him AZT.' For what? He didn't step on a needle. They didn't even check him for tetanus, they were so sure about this AZT nonsense. The doctor said, 'Ma'am, there's nothing I can do for you since you aren't giving him AZT.' I put Anthony's socks on and left. My mom's house was five minutes away. By the time I got to mom's house, the CPS had already called her. I got on the phone with them, and my mom thought of something clever to tell them-tell them that the reason we weren't giving Anthony the medicine is because he can't take pills since he's only 5 years old."

That didn't settle the matter. Anderson was told a doctor could FedEx her liquid AZT. When she continued to demur about giving the drug to her son, CPS officials decided they'd had enough of her insubordination and went after Anthony...


Plenty of examples like that, some even more absurd. And then there was that hysteria called the "satanic panic" in which prosecutors went crazy backed by both Republican and Democratic parties (Al Gore was a big one, by the way) that led to all sorts of kids being seized and horribly abused, examples here:
http://www.loompanics.com/Articles/SatanSellers.html

I'm not saying it happens all the time or that it would happen all the time (budget would probably limit it, unless they NEED to harass people to get more funding in which case all bets are off, and for the law abiding as much as everyone else), but it has happen and will happen in whatever way possible, at least sometimes.

I don't believe this is going to be a big concern to politicians one way or another, just the bureaucrats who need to keep their job security, but it's best to take preventative measures before they happen instead of after. The one thing I've seen in all kinds of laws is if it can be misapplied, it WILL be sooner or later (even in the most mind boggling bizarre ways).

IP: Logged

AcousticGod
Knowflake

Posts: 7784
From: Pleasanton, CA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted August 17, 2013 01:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
will happen in whatever way possible, at least sometimes.

It will happen sometimes, or it will happen occasionally are a far cry from the doom and gloom I see here. People avoid vaccinations because of anecdotes as well, but it's like saying that because you've heard of people being thrown out of their car to safety in certain accidents that there shouldn't be seat belt laws.

IP: Logged

Randall
Webmaster

Posts: 31982
From: Saturn next to Charmainec
Registered: Apr 2009

posted August 17, 2013 05:20 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Actually, there are enough adverse reactions to vaccines that the government created a vaccine injury compensation program to pay off the parents of the damaged children, in order to waive liability for the vaccine manufacturers. The problem with someone like you, AG, is that if you research it, you will only believe those who have a vested interest in promoting them. You are the epitome of status quo. Yet you pride yourself on having an open mind. You probably think that since you were vaccinated, and others you know, and you did not suffer, that vaccines must be healthy. That's like saying that just because you know people who have smoked for years who didn't get lung cancer, that smoking isn't unhealthy. Cigs contain over 3,000 poisons that don't belong in the human body. Vaccines also contain poisons that shouldn't be injected into the crystal clear bloodstreams of babies, and the long-term effects of them can be deleterious, even when the short-term effects are seemingly escaped. You probably also think that we eradicated certain diseases by vaccination programs, when, in fact, those diseases were on sharp decline before the introduction of a vaccine, and also in countries where no vaccine was introduced. I could go on and on and probably will, but I do not expect you to believe any of it; nor do I expect you to research it. You will probably post info from the We Make Billions And Promise Vaccines Are Safe Group or some such as that.

IP: Logged

Faith
Moderator

Posts: 5582
From:
Registered: Jul 2011

posted August 17, 2013 08:30 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have a strong suspicion that I was vaccine damaged, even if it wasn't noticeable enough to anyone else to warrant a trip to the doctor. I have a strangely long memory; I remember walking for the first time at ten months old.

When I got my booster shots for kindergarten, I became high strung in a way that I never was before. It's hard to describe because it was a change in my internal feeling. But imagine a serious, well-behaved five year-old drinking two cups of coffee and lots of red food dye before school each morning....that's about how I felt, even though I only ate health food and very little sugar. I wasn't hyper, I just had to contain the feeling that my body was going to explode.

Children don't have a vocabulary for these things. I could have told my mother that I felt "funny," but I probably wouldn't have been able to say when it started or what the cause was. If I blamed it on the shots, she would have thought I was making stuff up.

My point is, regardless of whether or not I'm correct in linking those weird feelings to vaccines, the fact is that only the most obvious vaccine reactions are reported. That doesn't tell us how much harm is done invisibly, off the record, or with a delayed impact (as the poisons in vaccines accumulate with others over time, for example.)

IP: Logged

Faith
Moderator

Posts: 5582
From:
Registered: Jul 2011

posted August 17, 2013 08:31 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by PixieJane:
The one thing I've seen in all kinds of laws is if it can be misapplied, it WILL be sooner or later (even in the most mind boggling bizarre ways).

^ That's my bottom line, too.

IP: Logged

Randall
Webmaster

Posts: 31982
From: Saturn next to Charmainec
Registered: Apr 2009

posted August 17, 2013 10:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Parents who choose not to vaccinate their children and protect them with vaccine exemption forms are often chastised and stereotyped for putting their own kids at risk. But what is even stranger than this assault on individual freedom and informed choice, is that these concerned parents are attacked for putting vaccinated children at risk.

These attacks are based on the theory of “herd immunity.” This hypothesis was plucked out of an old college textbook. It states that the more people are immune to an infectious agent, the less likely an immune-compromised individual is to come in contact with it. In other words herd immunity serves as a human shield – a type of immunity – for “at-risk” individuals. But remember, it’s only a hypothesis.

When outbreaks arise among children, health officials are quick to state that it’s due to a breakdown in ‘herd immunity.‘ Doctors parrot it too, without even looking at the research. They say it’s happening more often nationwide as states make it easier for parents to opt out of vaccinations.

Like argumentative apes, pro-vaccine parents and their physicians start pounding their chest in favor of such statements. They use them to attack anti-vaccine parents, accusing them of “putting vaccinated kids at risk due to a breakdown in herd immunity.”

This is fuzzy logic. And it’s borderline stupid.

After all, if vaccines truly worked, then why would vaccinated kids be at risk?

…Plus, the spread of infection isn’t limited to coming into contact with another person! You can get sick without ever seeing another individual. Therefore, herd immunity is nothing more than a silly catch-phrase used to scare and bully parents into vaccinating their kids. Don’t fall for it parents, keep using the vaccine exemption forms to legally avoid them.

Free Vaccine Exemption Forms
Parents Should Question Vaccine Safety and Effectiveness by Using Vaccine Exemption

Instead of using an unproven hypothesis to question parents who have opted out, pro-vaccine parents should be questioning the safety and effectiveness of vaccines. With dozens of vaccines being forced on the public, some healthy skepticism could go a long way toward raising a vibrantly healthy child.

My background as a medicinal chemist taught me to rely on proven research. I learned to be less sensitive to emotional arguments and more sensitive to facts supported by reproducibility. This is one of the main principles of the scientific method. It refers to the ability of a test or experiment to be accurately reproduced. As a parent, I have a responsibility to use my training to make decisions for my family. Especially when it comes to potentially dangerous vaccinations.

In my own research, I have uncovered facts that every parent should be aware of. Here are three primary reasons why I have not and will not vaccinate my own children and why I’ve used vaccine exemption forms
for public school and more:

Reason #1: Vaccination Does Not Always Mean “Immunization”

Vaccines are purported to work by triggering the body’s natural immunity. By injecting weak or dead infectious agents through our skin, it’s believed that the body will create the appropriate immune defense. They are even called “immunizations.”

And while this idea is over two hundred years old, it’s not nearly as effective as the pharmaceutical companies, doctors and government agencies want you to believe.

At best, vaccines boost our defenses only temporarily. That’s because your immune system is programmed to recognize and attack invaders that come through the biological “front door.” That would be your nose, mouth and eyes. It doesn’t work properly when we shove infection into our body with a needle.

The World Health Organization (WHO) underscored this fact in their report titled, Immunization, Vaccines and Biologicals. They wrote that, “Children under two years of age do not consistently develop immunity following vaccination.” Therefore, vaccines can fly “below the radar” of our immune system.

Not only does this weaken the immune system, it renders many vaccines ineffective.

And history proves this to be the case…

[RELATED: Nature's Immune Booster is Potent Antibiotic. See the facts here.]

The Polio Vaccine

Polio is the most feared childhood illness. It has caused paralysis and death for much of human history. The world experienced a dramatic increase in polio around 1910. Epidemics became regular events. They were the driving force behind a great race toward the development of a polio vaccine. The vaccine was developed in 1953 and an oral version came soon after.

But the vaccines came too late. Thanks to better hygiene, sanitation and nutrition, the rates of polio infection had already plummeted as documented in my book, Over-The-Counter Natural Cures. And it’s a good thing, because both forms were a total failure. In fact, instead of preventing polio… they actually caused it!

Medical journals around the world have exposed this outcome. The Medical Journal of Australia discovered “the relation of prophylactic inoculations [polio vaccines] to the onset of poliomyelitis [polio]” as far back as 1951.

And the trend has continued…

In a 2007 article, entitled “Nigeria Fights Rare Vaccine-Derived Polio Outbreak,” Reuters showed how the vaccine itself ignited outbreaks of polio in Nigeria, Chad and Angola.

And according to The Indian Journal of Medical Ethics, the polio vaccine program launched by Bill Gates paralyzed 47,500 children in 2011 alone. And those injured by the vaccine died at twice the rate of those infected by “wild” polio!

Whooping Cough

The same scenario was repeated in the case of the whooping cough (pertussis) vaccine. Between 1900 and 1935, mortality rates due to whooping cough dropped by 79 percent in the United States. Yet, the vaccine (DTP and DTaP) wasn’t introduced until 1940.

Today, those who have been “immunized” are the most susceptible to whooping cough.

Researchers with the CDC publicly stated in 2002 that, “the number of infants dying from whooping cough is rising, despite record high vaccination levels.” In 2009, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution recognized the trend too. In the article titled, “Whooping Cough Vaccine not as Powerful as Thought,” the publication highlighted a recent cluster of 18 whooping cough-infected students. Seventeen of those students – 95% of those infected – had been immunized with five doses of DTaP vaccine.

Measles, Mumps, Rubella

The measles vaccine is no different. In 1957, the MMR shot became widely used in an effort to eradicate measles, mumps, and rubella. The The CDC insisted that it would eliminate mumps in the United States by the year 2010.

But rather than preventing mumps and measles, the vaccine has actually caused widespread epidemics. Outbreaks have become the norm. And those who have suffered the most were “vaccinated.”

Between 1983 and 1990, there was a 423% increase in measles cases among vaccinated individuals. Then in 2006, the largest mumps outbreak in twenty years occurred. Among those infected, 63% were “immunized,” as shown by Neil Miller in Vaccines: Are They Safe and Effective? Others found similar results.

In The Journal of Infectious Diseases, scientists from Vanderbilt University School of Medicine wrote, “Vaccine failure accounted for a sustained mumps outbreak in a highly vaccinated population.”

In his book, How to Raise a Healthy Child In Spite of Your Doctor, the late Dr. Robert Mendlesohn, MD showed that vaccinated individuals are 14 times more likely to contract mumps than unvaccinated.

These stunning vaccine failures led the Iowa Department of Public Health to conclude that, “…Our most important public health tool against this disease—2 doses of MMR vaccine—is not providing the necessary levels of protection to control mumps in the U.S. population.”

Even the Mayo Clinic – a bastion of mainstream medicine – states that, “vaccine failure has become increasingly apparent.”

Flu Vaccine Failure

The flu vaccine has proven just as worthless…

In 2007, the CDC reported that it had “no or low effectiveness” against influenza or influenza-like illnesses. The data showed that the flu vaccine protected no more than 14% of those who received it. And this wasn’t some fluke. The vaccine is rarely any more effective than that.

Even The New York Times reports that, “The influenza vaccine, which has been strongly recommended for people over 65 for more than four decades, is losing its reputation as an effective way to ward off the virus.”

Doctors who do their homework understand that vaccines are ineffective. Dr. Ira Goodman MD, FACS, ABHIM, a surgeon from Loyola Medical School is one of them. Through email correspondence, he told me he is against vaccines simply because “they don’t work!”

The failure of vaccines has finally gone mainstream. But instead of admitting that they don’t offer protection, health officials and the pharmaceutical companies are pushing for MORE vaccines as the solution. When you consider the number of outright toxins contained in these experimental concoctions, the implications are chilling.

Reason #2 Vaccines Expose Kids to Toxins

According to fact sheets put out by the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) and the Food & Drug Administration (FDA), vaccines are brimming with toxins. These include dozens of chemicals, heavy metals and allergens. They also include numerous objectionable ingredients, such as monkey kidney cells and aborted fetal tissue.

Formaldehyde is just one of many chemicals found in vaccines. And according to the FDA, “Excessive exposure to formaldehyde may cause cancer.” Another ingredient in the cocktail is a chemical known as 2-phenoxyethanol. This comes with an FDA warning which states that, “It can depress the central nervous system and may cause vomiting and diarrhea, which can lead to dehydration in infants.”

And that’s just the tip of the iceberg…

In addition to mercury and aluminum, many vaccines are also spiked with antibiotics like neomycin, polymyxin B, streptomycin and gentamicin. These drugs aren’t even approved for uninfected children!

Despite this emerging toxic threat, Parenting Magazine and Dr. Paul Offit stated that, “In theory, healthy infants could safely get up to 100,000 vaccines at once.” Are you kidding me? He won’t be testing that theory on my children. I wonder if he’s willing to stab himself that many times to prove it?

I queried numerous physicians via email and phone to find out if they shared Dr. Offit’s ideas. They didn’t. Dr. Suzanne Humphries, MD was adamant that, “Vaccines put children at risk for a form of kidney disease called nephrotic syndrome. This can be caused by a common ingredient – Bovine Serum Albumin. Doctors just give children steroids to suppress the symptoms, never knowing what the cause was.”

If parents need further proof of toxicity, they can read vaccine package inserts. The insert for the DPT vaccine from Sanofi Pasteur warns that, “A review by the Institute of Medicine (IOM) found evidence for a causal relation between tetanus toxoid and both brachial neuritis and Guillain-Barré syndrome [pain and loss of nerve and motor function].” Makers of the Tripedia vaccine for DTaP state that certain outcomes are so frequent that they had to list them. These reactions include:

• Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS)
• Anaphylactic reaction
• Cellulitis (a bacterial skin infection)
• Autism
• Convulsion/Seizures
• Brain dysfunction
• Low muscle tone and strength
• Nerve damage
• Hyperventilation/apnea

These are some damn good reasons to use vaccine exemption forms.

Vaccine supporters will insist that the benefits outweigh these toxicity risks. But that would only be true if vaccination was the only road to immunization.

Reason #3 Kids Can Build Immunity Naturally

We are all at risk from various “biological nasties.” Invisible threats are everywhere…A single gram of feces can contain more than 10 million viruses, 1 million bacteria, 1,000 parasite cysts and 100 parasite eggs.

The goal is to minimize risk by increasing our immunity, naturally. In Over-The-Counter Natural Cures, I showed how innate and adaptive immunity act as our God-given protection from biological nasties.

But, you have to support these Gatekeepers of health with proper nutrition, hygiene, sanitation and natural medicine like andrographis. Just as hand washing saved millions from infant mortality in a hospital setting, healthy habits minimize exposure and boost our natural defenses. The science supporting this won the Nobel Prize in 2011!

Bruce Beutler and Jules Hoffmann discovered that we are hard-wired with special receptors that recognize foreign invaders and activate our immune response. Ralph Steinman then found that special cells of the immune system possess the unique capacity to activate the immune response, which clears biological nasties from the body. And all of this occurs without vaccination!

[RELATED: Nature's Immune Booster is Potent Antibiotic. See the facts here.]

Decline in Disease Not Caused by Vaccination

Further research has shown that the historical decline in infectious diseases – that parents are now vaccinating against – were not the result of inoculation, like doctors blindly and wrongly assert. Instead, the decline began years before the vaccines were introduced thanks to improved habits of hygiene, sanitation and nutrition that raised our natural immunity.

Differences among immunity reflect the importance of healthy habits…Ever wonder why two people (even in the same household) can be exposed to the same virus while one of them is laid up in bed for a week and the other doesn’t feel the slightest effect?

And why is it that while nearly 50 million people died from the Spanish flu in 1918… the case fatality rate was from two to five percent? That means that 95 to 98 percent of those who contracted the flu recovered fully. And that says nothing of the hundreds of millions of people who came into contact with the virus, but never became ill at all.

The difference is our individual immune system.

And the bottom line is that your habits have a great deal of control over it, as shown in Nobel winning science. Work with it to acquire protection.

There are no Silver Bullets Against Infection, but You Have Options

There is no silver bullet, though.

Despite our best efforts at nutrition, hygiene and sanitation, the immune system can still fail. Fortunately, in many cases, emergency medicine can help.

With all this science and technology at our fingertips, I’m not willing to risk my children’s health on the antiquated vaccine theory… nor the toxic brew they contain.

That doesn’t make me a religious “nut job” or conspiracy theorist. It simply means that I am an informed and caring parent with healthy kids who don’t need to rely on risky medicines or “herd immunity.” And since herd immunity is nothing more than an antiquated theory – and not something that is actually protecting kids form infections – pro-vaccine parents shouldn’t give a **** about my non-vaccinated kids or my use of vaccine exemption forms.

Educate before you vaccinate.
http://thepeopleschemist.com/reasons-dont-vaccinate-children-vaccine-supporters-shouldnt-give/

IP: Logged

AcousticGod
Knowflake

Posts: 7784
From: Pleasanton, CA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted August 17, 2013 12:43 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Randall,

I think that's wishful thinking on your part. Your saying something that you feel like you can pat yourself on the back for rather than something that is actually reasonable.

I am aware of vaccine injury compensation. However, this does not amount to a governmental endorsement of avoiding vaccines.

quote:
is that if you research it, you will only believe those who have a vested interest in promoting them.

Nope. I'll go with science per my usual M.O. Have you looked at the science? Of course not. The science might link back to the government, and that means it must be part of a conspiracy to make people unhealthy.

quote:
You probably think that since you were vaccinated, and others you know, and you did not suffer, that vaccines must be healthy.

Sure, that could be part of it. It could also be that statistically I'm on the right side of this, and I can prove it.

quote:
That's like saying that just because you know people who have smoked for years who didn't get lung cancer, that smoking isn't unhealthy.

It's not. I'm not denying that nothing has ever happened as a result of vaccination. I'm saying that it's better for public safety for us to have our vaccinations.

quote:
You probably also think that we eradicated certain diseases by vaccination programs, when, in fact, those diseases were on sharp decline before the introduction of a vaccine, and also in countries where no vaccine was introduced.

I have no basis for such a belief.

quote:
I could go on and on and probably will

You could, but like with the global warming issue, you'd be in opposition to science.

IP: Logged

Randall
Webmaster

Posts: 31982
From: Saturn next to Charmainec
Registered: Apr 2009

posted August 17, 2013 01:38 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I never said there was a government endorsement of avoiding vaccines. I said that the damage and deaths were significant enough to warrant the government creating a compensation program to insulate manufacturers from lawsuits, or else they would stop producing them.

IP: Logged

Catalina
Knowflake

Posts: 119
From: shamballa
Registered: Aug 2013

posted August 17, 2013 01:41 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Catalina     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The bottom line is choice. There are risks in both options. But those who are vaccinated should not be worrying about those who are not...unless the vaccine is less effective than advertised. What possible rationale can there be for mandating a full adherence to recommended schedules? And what child needs 96 vacs before the age of 5?

I remain satisfied that the shots I allowed for my child were sufficient tho minimal. Funnily in the US TB vaccine its rarely given despite the supposed epidemic resurgence of this truly disastrous and hard to treat disease .

IP: Logged

Faith
Moderator

Posts: 5582
From:
Registered: Jul 2011

posted August 17, 2013 02:03 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Welcome, Catalina, nice to meet you!

AG,

You talk about science like it's a singular human being you can consult for the "final say."

There are scientists who are willing to challenge Big Pharma by linking vaccines with autism and the other disastrous effects Randall posted, just as there are scientists who see flaws in the global warming models.

Science is multifaceted like that. Yet, when you say science, what you really mean is "government approved scientific positions." Which are not necessarily pure science: often they are an amalgam of science, special interest groups and their agendas, bureaucratic strictures limiting the scope of revelations, and so on.

You seem incapable of incorporating these factors into your worldview. To you it's just: "If the government says it's true, it is."

Which, you know, is pretty darn weird.

Sorry to be mean again, but after you told me off completely yesterday, I don't feel so bad.

IP: Logged

AcousticGod
Knowflake

Posts: 7784
From: Pleasanton, CA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted August 17, 2013 05:05 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
[Randall]
That last post was cut short, because I had to make our massage appointment.

Now, to the point about me endorsing the status quo:

I could equally say that you suddenly and abruptly make yourself an expert on anything you like. If I brought a fuel-less car to you, and asked what I should do, you could say that I should fill it with water, and I'll be good to go. The fact is, however, you wouldn't do that, because it's not that you're an instant expert on things. You would only pursue that course if the government was mandating that people put gas in their cars, and you found a minority on the internet that endorsed filling the car with water instead. Then, because of the allure of being a maverick, and your desire to forge your own outcome independent of the government, would you endorse that action. In the absence of that, you're just fine with the status quo, and what the experts think.

With regard to having an open mind, which mind is more open: the mind that considers both sides, or the one that a) chooses a side, b) disregards the other side, and c) sticks with a side despite the merit of the opposite side. You think that I don't consider the other side, and that's erroneous. I'm completely open to the other side. I've been proven wrong before, and I will be proven wrong again. I've made no bones about being in error in the past here, and I like to think I'm still holding myself to that principle (otherwise, I wouldn't mention it so often). This is one liberal that doesn't mind being held accountable. There's just a requirement of legitimacy.

Now...did you Google, "Should I vaccinate my child?" Did you read from opinions you might like as well as opinions you may NOT like? Did you Google, "How safe are vaccines?" and once again read from both sides? Are you indeed an instant expert, or just on the coattails of people "not performing to the status quo"?

Ah...well, now I've got to go again. Gotta go do some grocery shopping. My wife is reminding me of the definition of insanity here: doing the same thing and expecting a different result (with regard to debating people online). I'll probably be back when I get time, though. TTFN

IP: Logged

shura
Knowflake

Posts: 764
From:
Registered: Jun 2009

posted August 17, 2013 05:22 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shura     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AcousticGod:
Now...did you Google, "Should I vaccinate my child?" Did you read from opinions you might like as well as opinions you may NOT like? Did you Google, "How safe are vaccines?" and once again read from both sides? Are you indeed an instant expert, or just on the coattails of people "not performing to the status quo"?

Can't answer for Randall, but I spend a considerable amount of my alloted vax research time on pro-vax sites.

quote:
Ah...well, now I've got to go again. Gotta go do some grocery shopping. My wife is reminding me of the definition of insanity here: doing the same thing and expecting a different result (with regard to debating people online).

If your purpose is to cajole and convince, yes. Waste of good time and energy. If your purpose is to further clarify your own thoughts and exchange information with others, then I would say a small dose might be time well enough invested. You could do worse, at least. Real life interaction is always best, of course. Maybe ask the grocery store clerk what she thinks of the pertussis vax?

quote:
I'll probably be back when I get time, though. TTFN

IP: Logged

shura
Knowflake

Posts: 764
From:
Registered: Jun 2009

posted August 17, 2013 05:53 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shura     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Catalina:
The bottom line is choice. There are risks in both options.

Amen to that.

For me, the vax question boils down to a simple cost/risk analysis.
I began researching vaccines before my pregancy. Countless hours pouring over conflicting studies, sorting through the fear mongering pr on both sides, and I was more confused then when I began. Six months into it, I switched horses. Rather than study the vax, I studied the infection. Here was my aha! moment. All the Merck financed studies the pro vax camp can churn out mean nothing if you've little fear of the accompanying infection. Chicken pox? Seriously? I'm old enough to remember chicken pox parties. I'd love my son to come down with it. Measles? No prob. Whooping cough? Same. Polio? Non issue. Meningitis ... here I wavered. Meningitis is lightning quick. It shoots first, asked questions later. Can be difficult to home diagnose as it well mimics flu like symptoms. The antibiotics used to treat it are quickly becoming ineffective. If I had more confidence in the vax, I might go with this one.

quote:
But those who are vaccinated should not be worrying about those who are not...unless the vaccine is less effective than advertised. What possible rationale can there be for mandating a full adherence to recommended schedules? And what child needs 96 vacs before the age of 5?

Big Pharma claims that many vax's are most effective after one or more boosters. (Whether this is true, or they're scamming for more money is a point of debate but that's another story) Therefore, the idea is one DTaP in an infant won't yet fully protect him should his elder sister bring a case of pertussis home from school. Pertussis in an otherwise healthy 6 year old is no problem; pertussis in a 6 week or 6 month old is serious business.

quote:
I remain satisfied that the shots I allowed for my child were sufficient tho minimal. Funnily in the US TB vaccine its rarely given despite the supposed epidemic resurgence of this truly disastrous and hard to treat disease .[/B]

Another fair point. Where's the ecoli vax? A deluge of fed funded pr hoping to convince me of the dangers of the deadly chicken pox plague, but nary a word of MRSA. Juvenile leukemia scares me. Measles, not so much.

IP: Logged

Catalina
Knowflake

Posts: 119
From: shamballa
Registered: Aug 2013

posted August 17, 2013 06:50 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Catalina     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
For the record, shura, a neighbour of mine lost her firstborn to measles. I didn't know that when making my decision on MMR, but even Andrew Wakefiekd never told people not to vaccinate against measles...he found the combo to be the dangerous potion.

Still, when my girl was pregnant the only antibody she didn't have was mumps...she had measles so mild we never knew! I'm oldfashioned though, I feel that surviving childhood fever viruses gives one a sense of power to survive as well as lifetime immunity.

IP: Logged

shura
Knowflake

Posts: 764
From:
Registered: Jun 2009

posted August 17, 2013 08:13 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shura     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm sorry to hear that about your neighbor. However, as AG rightfully pointed out, I think we would be remiss to base important decisions on anecdotal evidence. I know of a man who caught a cold, which developed into pneumonia, which killed him. Can I interest you in a cold vax? Probably not.

This might be a good time to point out that my situation is different than the average. My decision not to vax was mine, not yours, or your neighbor's, or AG's. Each of us live different lives with different variables to be considered. If I were living in a Delhi ghetto, I might very well be persuaded to purchase a polio vax. If I were formula feeding my son, if he were in daycare, if he were exposed to many potential carriers, if I were a working mom forced to send my sick child to school for fear of losing my job or a call from the truant officer, if I knew little about the early symptoms of measles and how best to treat it, then I might have considered the MMR. Again, it's cost/benefit analysis and it is (or should be) highly individualized. This is no place for the one size fits all mentality. There are some situations where the vax may be a parent's most reasonable defense. I argue for choice and informed consent in all things.

Also, it's important to note that measles doesn't kill, some of its more severe (and rare) complications can kill. eg pneumonia, encephalitis. Measles is, in the pre-vax words of the AAP, a "benign childhood disease", but it isn't the common cold. It should be respected, and treated properly by well-informed parents under the direct supervision of a physician.
Deaths in the US are exceedingly rare. I don't believe the numbers are available for 2012, but the CDC reports 222 cases in the US for 2011. Most contracted while traveling out of the country. No deaths at all.

I don't put much faith in Wakefield, I'm afraid.

fwiw it was the endless hours reading the CDC's pinkbook which sealed the deal for me. Funny how that worked out.

IP: Logged

Catalina
Knowflake

Posts: 119
From: shamballa
Registered: Aug 2013

posted August 17, 2013 09:10 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Catalina     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes it's about choice and awareness. I mention Wakefield only because he is the highest profile voice against the MMR. For the most part I think too many vaccines crammed on top of each other are the worst part of the "program"

If I were living in India where many thousands of children appear to have contracted a paralysis relayed to polio vaccine I think I would run screaming in the other direction! As it is I know enough doctors who think the current schedule is courting trouble that I am glad the decision is behind me . And I hope we will never get to the stage where mandatory programs cime into effect.

As to the opening post, I couldn't find any reference to which provision describes these draconian measures. Any article that refers to "A provision" or "doctors say" reminds me of Fox News and their "some people say" tactics.

I was raised on the motto "the price of freedom is vigilance". That takes the form of vigilance against both complacency and paranoia...and blanket assessments for shura!

IP: Logged

AcousticGod
Knowflake

Posts: 7784
From: Pleasanton, CA
Registered: Apr 2009

posted August 17, 2013 09:11 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for AcousticGod     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Ah...a breath of fresh air in that last post. Thanks Shura!

IP: Logged

Randall
Webmaster

Posts: 31982
From: Saturn next to Charmainec
Registered: Apr 2009

posted August 17, 2013 09:15 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm hardly an expert on anything. But I know enough about a few topics to provide a discerning divergent view that is contrary to popular opinion obtained through societal brainwashing. I don't have to Google the status quo; we all know that view. But have YOU looked at the other side? Doubtful.

IP: Logged

Faith
Moderator

Posts: 5582
From:
Registered: Jul 2011

posted August 17, 2013 10:57 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Catalina:
For the record, shura, a neighbour of mine lost her firstborn to measles.

Was the firstborn vaccinated or not, do you know?

Interesting that there have been measles outbreaks in populations where the children are supposedly immunized against it.

quote:
An outbreak of measles occurred in a high school with a documented vaccination level of 98 per cent. Nineteen (70 per cent) of the cases were students who had histories of measles vaccination at 12 months of age or older and are therefore considered vaccine failures. Persons who were unimmunized or immunized at less than 12 months of age had substantially higher attack rates compared to those immunized on or after 12 months of age. Vaccine failures among apparently adequately vaccinated individuals were sources of infection for at least 48 per cent of the cases in the outbreak. There was no evidence to suggest that waning immunity was a contributing factor among the vaccine failures. Close contact with cases of measles in the high school, source or provider of vaccine, sharing common activities or classes with cases, and verification of the vaccination history were not significant risk factors in the outbreak. The outbreak subsided spontaneously after four generations of illness in the school and demonstrates that when measles is introduced in a highly vaccinated population, vaccine failures may play some role in transmission but that such transmission is not usually sustained.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1646939/

My favorite book on this topic is by Aviva Jill Romm:

Vaccinations: A Thoughtful Parent's Guide: How to Make Safe, Sensible Decisions about the Risks, Benefits, and Alternatives

IP: Logged

Faith
Moderator

Posts: 5582
From:
Registered: Jul 2011

posted August 17, 2013 11:01 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Faith     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AcousticGod:
I'm completely open to the other side.

IP: Logged

Catalina
Knowflake

Posts: 119
From: shamballa
Registered: Aug 2013

posted August 18, 2013 12:51 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Catalina     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
No that fatality was well before there was a vaccine, in fact she probably had only smallpox vax.

I think some vaccines work better than others. The principle is sound enough butthe execution and the goal of protecting all from diseases most survive, very faulty.

I think second-guessing the motives of those who campaign for these medicines is a waste of energy, I had a family doctor who believed wholeheartedly in vaccination.

I don't remember there being an MMR shot before the 80s. The one I turned down for my child was later discredited and remived from the field. PRE Wakefield

Thank you for the welcomes, Faith and Juniperb!

IP: Logged

Randall
Webmaster

Posts: 31982
From: Saturn next to Charmainec
Registered: Apr 2009

posted August 18, 2013 02:35 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Randall     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Since AG posted about vaccines and science, this one is for you:

"There has never been a single vaccine in this country that has ever been submitted to a controlled scientific study. They never took a group of 100 people who were candidates for a vaccine, gave 50 of them a vaccine and left the other 50 alone, and measured the outcome. And since this has never been done, that means if you want to be kind, you will call vaccines an unproven remedy. If you want to be accurate, you'll call the people who give vaccines quacks." Robert S. Mendelsohn, M.D.

Dr. Mendelsohn had a thriving medical practice for over thirty years and his credentials include:

Head of the Illinois State Medical Licensing Board
National Director of Project Head Start
Twelve years as an instructor at Northwestern University Medical School
Twelve years as an associate professor of Pediatrics at the Preventive Medicine and Community Health at the University of Illinois

IP: Logged

Ami Anne
Moderator

Posts: 46267
From: Pluto/house next to NickiG
Registered: Sep 2010

posted August 18, 2013 03:34 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Ami Anne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Amish have no vaccines and no autism

------------------
Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal


http://www.mychristianpsychic.com/

IP: Logged

shura
Knowflake

Posts: 764
From:
Registered: Jun 2009

posted August 18, 2013 06:30 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shura     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ami Anne:
The Amish have no vaccines and no autism


inaccurate on both counts

IP: Logged

shura
Knowflake

Posts: 764
From:
Registered: Jun 2009

posted August 18, 2013 06:40 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for shura     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Randall:
Since AG posted about vaccines and science, this one is for you:

"There has never been a single vaccine in this country that has ever been submitted to a controlled scientific study. They never took a group of 100 people who were candidates for a vaccine, gave 50 of them a vaccine and left the other 50 alone, and measured the outcome. And since this has never been done, that means if you want to be kind, you will call vaccines an unproven remedy. If you want to be accurate, you'll call the people who give vaccines quacks." Robert S. Mendelsohn, M.D.

Dr. Mendelsohn had a thriving medical practice for over thirty years and his credentials include:

Head of the Illinois State Medical Licensing Board
National Director of Project Head Start
Twelve years as an instructor at Northwestern University Medical School
Twelve years as an associate professor of Pediatrics at the Preventive Medicine and Community Health at the University of Illinois


His How to raise a healthy Child in Spite of Your Doctor is a wonderfully sensible book. Mendelsohn has walked me through many nervous mommy episodes.

IP: Logged


This topic is 5 pages long:   1  2  3  4  5 

All times are Eastern Standard Time

next newest topic | next oldest topic

Administrative Options: Close Topic | Archive/Move | Delete Topic
Post New Topic  Post A Reply
Hop to:

Contact Us | Linda-Goodman.com

Copyright 2000-2013

Powered by Infopop www.infopop.com © 2000
Ultimate Bulletin Board 5.46a