posted August 19, 2013 01:32 PM            

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Originally posted by shura:
His How to raise a healthy Child in Spite of Your Doctor is a wonderfully sensible book. Mendelsohn has walked me through many nervous mommy episodes.

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posted August 19, 2013 06:47 PM            

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After all, if vaccines truly worked, then why would vaccinated kids be at risk?

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Wow. This author really shouldn't ask a question he/she's later going to answer: Reason #1: Vaccination Does Not Always Mean “Immunization”

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The World Health Organization (WHO) underscored this fact in their report titled, Immunization, Vaccines and Biologicals. They wrote that, “Children under two years of age do not consistently develop immunity following vaccination.” Therefore, vaccines can fly “below the radar” of our immune system.

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WHO/Europe’s goal is to reach and maintain high levels of immunization, particularly in vulnerable groups, at the appropriate ages and recommended doses. http://www.euro.who.int/en/what-we-do/health-topics/disease-prevention/vaccine s-and-immunization

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And according to The Indian Journal of Medical Ethics, the polio vaccine program launched by Bill Gates paralyzed 47,500 children in 2011 alone. And those injured by the vaccine died at twice the rate of those infected by “wild” polio!

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That's fine, but if you're talking about Polio vaccination in the U.S., it's not the same vaccination.

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Researchers with the CDC publicly stated in 2002 that, “the number of infants dying from whooping cough is rising, despite record high vaccination levels.” In 2009, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution recognized the trend too. In the article titled, “Whooping Cough Vaccine not as Powerful as Thought,” the publication highlighted a recent cluster of 18 whooping cough-infected students. Seventeen of those students – 95% of those infected – had been immunized with five doses of DTaP vaccine.

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It's a short-living immunization. That doesn't mean the vaccine is worthless, especially around babies and toddlers.

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The measles vaccine is no different. In 1957, the MMR shot became widely used in an effort to eradicate measles, mumps, and rubella. The The CDC insisted that it would eliminate mumps in the United States by the year 2010.

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"Today there are only about 50 cases a year reported in the United States, and most of these originate outside the country." http://www.cdc.gov/measles/about/overview.html

The annual number of cases is still far below the numbers that occurred during the prevaccine era, providing convincing evidence that the vaccine is quite efficacious.
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As the study demonstrated, the calculated seroprevalence of antibodies to mumps virus in 6–49-year-old Americans is only ∼90%, which is below the estimated 92% needed for mumps control (ie, herd immunity). These levels are particularly important as our population changes—as those older Americans who have lifetime immunity due to childhood mumps disease age out of our population, a larger percentage of Americans will need to rely on vaccine for protection. http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/202/5/655.full

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But rather than preventing mumps and measles, the vaccine has actually caused widespread epidemics.

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Are we talking about the U.S. dear author? In my limited reading on the subject, no vaccinations have been attributed to causing mumps or measles.

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Even the Mayo Clinic – a bastion of mainstream medicine – states that, “vaccine failure has become increasingly apparent.”

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And yet...if anyone is curious enough, or open-minded enough to look up mumps at the Mayo Clinic website, they'll find:

The mumps vaccine is usually given as a combined measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) inoculation, which contains the safest and most effective form of each vaccine. http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/mumps/DS00125/DSECTION=prevention

They go on to say who should, and who shouldn't get vaccinated. Most of us are in the category of those who should be vaccinated.

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The flu vaccine has proven just as worthless…

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According to fact sheets put out by the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) and the Food & Drug Administration (FDA), vaccines are brimming with toxins.

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What You Should Know

• Millions of doses of vaccines are administered to children in this country each year. Ensuring that those vaccines are potent, sterile, and safe requires the addition of minute amounts of chemical additives.
  
• Chemicals are added to vaccines to inactivate a virus or bacteria and stabilize the vaccine, helping to preserve the vaccine and prevent it from losing its potency over time.
  
• The amount of chemical additives found in vaccines is very small.
  
• All routinely recommended pediatric vaccines manufactured for the U.S. market are available in formulations that contain no thimerosal or only trace amounts. http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/additives.htm
  

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“Vaccines put children at risk for a form of kidney disease called nephrotic syndrome. This can be caused by a common ingredient – Bovine Serum Albumin. Doctors just give children steroids to suppress the symptoms, never knowing what the cause was.”

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Nephrotic syndrone has been correlated to vaccinations, but causation hasn't been established. http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/000496.htm

Mayo Clinic says there are, "Many possible causes." http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/nephrotic-syndrome/DS01047/DSECTION=causes

WebMD:
Many things can cause this blood vessel damage, including diabetes, lupus, infection, certain cancers, and some medicines. Sometimes doctors don't know what causes it.

A type of kidney disease called minimal change disease (also called nil disease) causes most of the cases of nephrotic syndrome in children. Doctors don't know what causes minimal change disease. http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/nephrotic-syndrome-topic-overview

I guess the author couldn't get a second opinion on that.

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The insert for the DPT vaccine from Sanofi Pasteur warns that, “A review by the Institute of Medicine (IOM) found evidence for a causal relation between tetanus toxoid and both brachial neuritis and Guillain-Barré syndrome [pain and loss of nerve and motor function].”

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I googled that warning specifically, and found the product page on the FDA website.

IOM's work is available online.

Over half of all patients with GBS have a history of a preceding acute infectious illness, either respiratory or gastrointestinal, in the 1 to 4 weeks prior to the onset of neuropathic symptoms. Although the basis for the preceding illness remains unidentified in many patients, several infectious agents are strongly associated with GBS. Nonviral infectious agents include Campylobacter jejuni, which is perhaps the most common, and Mycoplasma pneumoniae. Certain viral infections are also strongly associated with GBS, including cytomegalovirus and Epstein-Barr virus, vaccinia virus used for smallpox vaccination, and HIV. A host of other viral infections, including measles, mumps, and hepatitis B, have been reported as antecedent events, but it is unclear whether their occurrence preceding GBS exceeds that from chance alone. Less commonly, vaccines, surgical procedures, and malignant disorders, particularly Hodgkin's disease and other lymphomas, are either antecedent events or underlying conditions. - Page 39 http://www.nap.edu/openbook.php?record_id=2138&page=39

I do hope the above is read with a certain degree of comprehension.

Page 40:

Most commonly, preceding events are viral infections, but the association of Guillain-Barré syndrome with preceding surgery, inoculations, and Mycoplasma infections is also known. In addition, Guillain-Barré syndrome occurs more frequently than by chance in the setting of preexisting illnesses such as Hodgkin's disease, lymphoma, or lupus erythematosus.

Page 42:

Vaccinations are an infrequent antecedent event in patients with GBS, probably occurring in less than 1 to 5 percent of all cases. In most large series of GBS, recent vaccination either is not mentioned or is described in an occasional person. Hankey (1987) noted that 5 of 109 subjects had recently been vaccinated (two with diphtheria and tetanus toxoids and pertussis vaccine [DPT] and one each with rubella vaccine, tetanus toxoid, and cholera and typhoid vaccines). Winer and colleagues (1988) noted six recent vaccinees in a series of 100 consecutive cases of GBS, but they also found five recent vaccinees in the 100 case controls.

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A persistent problem has been the uncertainty about the expected incidence of GBS unrelated to vaccination in the cohort under 5 years of age. There is reasonably good information to suggest that the overall incidence of GBS for all ages is about 1 case per 1,000,000 population per month. Many authorities have suggested that the incidence of GBS in the pediatric age group (0-16 years of age) is lower than that in adults.

Page 47 goes into how they might "obtain an idea of whether excess cases of GBS in relation to childhood vaccination occur each year." It includes this line: "Nevertheless, excess cases of GBS occurring 5 days to 6 weeks after vaccination of preschool-age children have not been noted in the population-based studies mentioned above."

posted August 19, 2013 08:37 PM            

Frequency
United States

The incidence of brachial neuritis is approximately 1-2 cases per 100,000 person-years.

International

In the United Kingdom, the incidence of brachial neuritis (BN) is approximately 3 per 100,000 person-years.[12] BN has also been described in many countries around the world, although specific rates of incidence have not been reported. http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/315811-overview#a0199

I would venture a guess that the incidence is far less often than Tetanus Toxoid is administered.

Ah...indeed:

In 25-50% of patients, the medical history indicates a viral illness or vaccination that occurred days or weeks prior to the onset of symptoms. Some patients also may note recent trauma or severe exercise, surgery, infection, or immunization. http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/315811-clinical

Causes

The exact cause of brachial neuritis is unknown, but the condition has been linked to many antecedent events or illnesses, as follows: http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/315811-clinical#a0218

So, we're one syndrome down, and if this data is correct vaccinations of many types including Tetanus Toxoid may contribute to a quarter to half of the cases. That indicates some moderate risk, not "a causal relation."

Guillain-Barré syndrome:

"The exact cause of Guillain-Barre syndrome is unknown" http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/guillain-barre-syndrome/DS00413

Not a great starting point if we're hoping to get to, "a causal relation". Wow, Mayo doesn't even list vaccination as a cause. Ah, but under "Risk Factors" Mayo states: Guillain-Barre syndrome may be triggered by: [bottom of the list] Rarely, rabies or influenza immunizations.

"No one yet knows why Guillain-Barré — which is not contagious — strikes some people and not others. Nor does anyone know exactly what sets the disease in motion."

In rare instances vaccinations may increase the risk of GBS.
- National Institute of Neurological Disorders & Stroke http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/gbs/detail_gbs.htm

I think it's reasonably fair to call this claim (which was correctly reported as being part of the literature for Sanofi Pasteur's vaccine) misleading, and for GBS (Guillain-Barré syndrome) possibly false altogether. I didn't find where the IOM found the causal relationship, and diversified queries elsewhere suggest "causal" would not be the best description of the possible relationship between the vaccine and the occurrence of these problems.

This "chemist" (author) is doing a poor, poor job of convincing me. (In fact, I had completely forgotten about his/her self-proclaimed credentials.)

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Makers of the Tripedia vaccine for DTaP state that certain outcomes are so frequent that they had to list them. These reactions include:

• Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS)
• Anaphylactic reaction
• Cellulitis (a bacterial skin infection)
• Autism
• Convulsion/Seizures
• Brain dysfunction
• Low muscle tone and strength
• Nerve damage
• Hyperventilation/apnea

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Where did he/she find this? I've got the pdf up from the FDA, and that's not what it says. You can confirm I'm looking at Tripedia: http://www.fda.gov/downloads/biologicsbloodvaccines/vaccines/approvedproducts/ucm101580.pdf

I can't believe the writer starts with SIDS:

The rate of SIDS observed in the German case-control study was 0.4/1,000 vaccinated infants. The rate of SIDS observed in the US open-label safety study was 0.8/1,000 vaccinated infants and the reported rate of SIDS in the US from 1985-1991 was 1.5/1,000 live births. 34 By chance alone, some cases of SIDS can be expected to follow receipt of whole-cell pertussis DTP 35 or DTaP vaccines.

Cellulitis:
I like to research quickly since this is merely a recreational task, so I often use the "find" function to get the information I need quickly. I hadn't done so with the above, but started with Cellulitis, and found this paragraph I'd previously ignored. Perhaps, this is what the writer was alluding to:

Adverse events reported during post-approval use of Tripedia vaccine include idiopathic thrombocytopenic purpura, SIDS, anaphylactic reaction, cellulitis, autism, convulsion/grand mal convulsion, encephalopathy, hypotonia, neuropathy, somnolence and apnea. Events were included in this list because of the seriousness or frequency of reporting.

This may be where our chemist stopped reading, the next line says:

Because these events are reported voluntarily from a population of uncertain size, it is not always possible to reliably estimate their frequencies or to establish a causal relationship to components of Tripedia vaccine.

So the makers, in this case, are rejecting a causal relationship. We don't really care about that this time. This time we're looking at the claim that these things occur with such frequency that they had to list them. I've already established that two out of three we've looked at don't happen frequently.

We haven't solved Cellulitis yet, and interestingly Cellulitis isn't named again in the document. According to the Mayo Clinic, immunization is neither a cause nor a risk factor for Cellulitis (though intravenous drug use is). WebMD says the same.

Autism:
Autism is also only mentioned once in the document, in the paragraph I posted above under Cellulitis.

Autism is a bigger subject altogether, but I'll try to find the medical evaluation of this theory. WebMD says Autism is not caused by vaccination via one pediatrician via video: http://children.webmd.com/video/pediatrician-on-autism-vaccine-connection

Mayo Clinic concurs:
No link between vaccines and autism
One of the greatest controversies in autism is centered on whether a link exists between autism and certain childhood vaccines, particularly the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine. Despite extensive research, no reliable study has shown a link between autism and the MMR vaccine.

Avoiding childhood vaccinations can place your child in danger of catching and spreading serious diseases, including whooping cough (pertussis), measles or mumps. http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/autism/DS00348/DSECTION=causes

I think/hope we can safely take that off the list of outcomes for Tripedia.

Convulsion/Seizures:
They have a chart for certain adverse events that might happen within 48 hours, and Convulsion made the list. Occurrences were zero per 1,000 with one occurrence happening between 48 - 72 hours. That is the sort of thing that you should be wary of, however. There are warnings that one should proceed with caution if a seizure occurs even days after the immunization.

Brain dysfunction
I just noticed that Tripedia production stopped in 2011. (I was curious if this vaccination was pertinent to the conversation.)
There is no specific mention of brain dysfunction in the pdf. "Encephalopathy" is mentioned once in the paragraph I posted in Cellulitis. It is mentioned as an effect of pertussis. It is also indicated amongst the reasons for contraindication along with neurological disorder. Contraindications are considered to be allergic reactions to the vaccine.

"However, the IOM committee concluded that the evidence was insufficient to indicate whether or not whole-cell pertussis DTP vaccine increased the overall risk of chronic neurologic disease."

Low muscle tone and strength
Hypotonia they call it on the sheet. (Yes, I am curious enough to discover where they got "low muscle tone and strength" from.) In the German case control efficacy study that enrolled 16,780 infants, 12,514 of whom received 41,615 doses of Tripedia vaccine the effect of hypotonia was 0.05 per 1,000 (that's five in 100,000 or 0.005%).

Nerve damage (Mononeuropathy)
"A few cases of peripheral mononeuropathy and of cranial mononeuropathy have been reported following tetanus toxoid administration, although available evidence is inadequate to accept or reject a causal relation."

Hyperventilation/apnea
"Rarely, an anaphylactic reaction (ie, hives, swelling of the mouth, difficulty breathing, hypotension, or shock) has been
reported after receiving preparations containing diphtheria, tetanus, and/or pertussis antigens."

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These are some damn good reasons to use vaccine exemption forms.

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Or maybe not.

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The science supporting this won the Nobel Prize in 2011!

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No kidding...one of the scientists awarded (who was self-treating) died of cancer. He had created a vaccine for tumors.

"The work of all three prizewinners has been pivotal to the development of improved types of vaccines against infectious diseases and novel approaches to fighting cancer. The research has helped lay the foundations for a new wave of "therapeutic vaccines" that stimulate the immune system to attack tumors."

posted August 20, 2013 12:33 AM            

So, life being a definite high risk factor for death, shall we all stop living immediately? Oh shoot me now I have a terminal disease! Though of course there is NO PROOF THAT DEATH IS INEVITABLE it just so happens we all do it!

I know a child who suffered from ITP, mentioned as a side effect (1 in 22-25k according to the study you choose) this occurred after a combined vax of 9 different diseases. Like GBS it is generally a response to exposure to virus...like the 9 viruses he was hit with at once ?

Now one in 25K may sound negligible but for that child, 3 years of not being able to take part in any activities that involved speed or having his feet off the ground, left a lasting mark on his development. Should he and the others like him whose parents worried they could bleed to death at any time take more vaccines because the risk of measles hitting a neighborhood is worse?

I don't know but I don't think parents of vaccinated children, or the government, should be worrying about those who choose to take their chances. IF VACCINES are so good then they are protected. IF NOT, why are they considered so necessary? ESPECIALLY BY SCHOOLS WHO RECEIVE FUNDING dependant on how many school days attended are recorded?

Why are we so fixated on avoiding any and all disease? Being sick is a nuisance but gives us an experience no vaccine can, that of conquering adversity.

As to the flu vaccine anyone who has had the flu in the last 10-15 years has no proof that the shot works. Many claim to have been sick for two weeks after having it. And epidemioligists will likely tell you that the everchanging flu virus is always two steps ahead of the vaccine factories. I have had flu, two or three times in many years. I don't avoid sufferers or take shots but I am confident that it will be at least another decade before I have it.

posted August 20, 2013 03:40 PM            

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Bruce Beutler and Jules Hoffmann discovered that we are hard-wired with special receptors that recognize foreign invaders and activate our immune response.

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I thought this was already known.

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Bruce Beutler and Jules Hoffmann discovered that we are hard-wired with special receptors that recognize foreign invaders and activate our immune response. Ralph Steinman then found that special cells of the immune system possess the unique capacity to activate the immune response, which clears biological nasties from the body. And all of this occurs without vaccination!

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Yes, it does all happen without vaccination, but those discoveries don't further a walk away from vaccination.
Our chemist had a fundamental misunderstanding of the material he/she was reading. These Nobel Prize winners discovered various things (associated with immune response) already present within our bodies. The conclusion drawn from their study:

From fundamental research to medical use

The discoveries that are awarded the 2011 Nobel Prize have provided novel insights into the activation and regulation of our immune system. They have made possible the development of new methods for preventing and treating disease, for instance with improved vaccines against infections and in attempts to stimulate the immune system to attack tumors. These discoveries also help us understand why the immune system can attack our own tissues, thus providing clues for novel treatment of inflammatory diseases.

This does not constitute a good reason for abandoning immunization.

The team's research, in layman's terms, was centered on finding a vaccine to protect against cancer and other such malignant tumors in humans. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/B_Beutler.html

For an audio explanation of the combined work of this Nobel Prize winning trio, go here: http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/health/july-dec11/nobel_10-03.html

As you'll learn, no product has yet been developed as a result of this new understanding, but it also goes in to how vaccines may be formulated in the future to combat disease. Our chemist was so far off the mark in citing this as reason to avoid vaccination.

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Further research has shown that the historical decline in infectious diseases – that parents are now vaccinating against – were not the result of inoculation, like doctors blindly and wrongly assert. Instead, the decline began years before the vaccines were introduced thanks to improved habits of hygiene, sanitation and nutrition that raised our natural immunity.

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Where did our chemist come up with this?

Public health action to control infectious diseases in the 20th century is based on the 19th century discovery of microorganisms as the cause of many serious diseases (e.g., cholera and TB). Disease control resulted from improvements in sanitation and hygiene, the discovery of antibiotics, and the implementation of universal childhood vaccination programs.

The success of vaccination programs in the United States and Europe inspired the 20th-century concept of "disease eradication"--the idea that a selected disease could be eradicated from all human populations through global cooperation. In 1977, after a decade-long campaign involving 33 nations, smallpox was eradicated worldwide--approximately a decade after it had been eliminated from the United States and the rest of the Western Hemisphere. Polio and dracunculiasis may be eradicated by 2000. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm4829a1.htm

The last case of smallpox from natural transmission was in Somalia in 1977. After eradication, the WHO advised that all countries stop giving routine smallpox vaccinations. Routine smallpox vaccinations stopped in the U.S. and in many other countries in 1972, and in all other member countries of WHO by 1986. http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/smallpox-causes-treatment

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And the bottom line is that your habits have a great deal of control over it, as shown in Nobel winning science. Work with it to acquire protection.

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There's no basis for this assertion, not if our chemist is referring to his previously-mentioned Nobel winners.

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Despite our best efforts at nutrition, hygiene and sanitation, the immune system can still fail.

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Much more sensible.

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Fortunately, in many cases, emergency medicine can help.

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Sure, things could help...like avoiding contracting the disease in the first place. If you don't get vaccinated, then you run the risk of getting a full blown version of a bad disease. If you do get vaccination, then you also run the risk of contracting a disease or syndrome. Your best bet if you choose to avoid vaccination is to live in a population that is well-vaccinated.

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With all this science and technology at our fingertips, I’m not willing to risk my children’s health on the antiquated vaccine theory… nor the toxic brew they contain.

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It's obviously not "antiquated." Why someone would say that after promoting the modern work of people working on vaccines is strange.

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That doesn’t make me a religious “nut job” or conspiracy theorist.

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My research has shown quite the opposite. If these are your justifications, dear Chemist, I'm afraid you have a lot more research to do.

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And since herd immunity is nothing more than an antiquated theory – and not something that is actually protecting kids form infections – pro-vaccine parents shouldn’t give a **** about my non-vaccinated kids or my use of vaccine exemption forms.

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Herd immunity eradicated smallpox as mentioned above.

Measles study San Diego 2008:
Key findings:
An intentionally unvaccinated 7-year-old child who was unknowingly infected with measles returned from Switzerland, resulting in 11 additional measles cases and in known measles exposure of more than 800 people. In San Diego, high personal belief exemption (PBE) rates were found in 10 schools (range, 42%–100%); schools and districts with high refusal rates were clustered geographically. Across all surveyed kindergartens, higher PBE rates correlated strongly with lower measles vaccination rates. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20308208 (You should see the costs associated with this outbreak)

Biggest measles outbreak in modern U.S.:
Key findings:
A total of 131 measles cases were reported to CDC during the first 7 months of 2008, the highest number of year-to-date reports since 1996. Fifteen patients, including 4 children younger than age 15 months, were hospitalized. One hundred twelve of the reported cases were unvaccinated or had unknown vaccination status; of these, 95 were eligible for vaccination. The majority of these 95 cases (66%)
were children who were unvaccinated because of philosophical or religious beliefs. http://www.immunize.org/catg.d/p2069.pdf

In the long version, this note was made:
However, herd immunity does not provide 100% protection, especially in communities with large numbers of unvaccinated persons. For the foreseeable future, measles importations into the United States will continue to occur because measles is still common in Europe and other regions of the world. Within the United States, the current national MMR vaccine coverage rate is adequate to prevent the sustained spread of measles. However, importations of measles likely will continue to cause outbreaks in communities that have sizeable clusters of unvaccinated persons. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm5733a1.htm

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Educate before you vaccinate.

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Ironic much, Chemist?
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There. I got through the first article designed to "educate" people on dangers of vaccination. I believe I handled the material very fairly, and that it's safe to say that it was chock full of distortion.
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The bottom line is choice. There are risks in both options. - Catalina

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That is correct. I'm on the fence about the "choice" part, but there are certainly risks in both options.
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You talk about science like it's a singular human being you can consult for the "final say." - Faith

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That's a ridiculous thing to say. "Science" is composed of thousands of scientists the world over. When I consult "Science," I'm consulting the combined efforts of lots of people. And it can only be the "final say" if the issue doesn't warrant any more study (though I can see why it might appear to be the "final say" because it is the scientific understanding of our present moment). Most of the things I post that are science-related continue to be studied and updated, and thus far all the new layers of information correspond with the old layers.

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There are scientists who are willing to challenge Big Pharma by linking vaccines with autism and the other disastrous effects Randall posted

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Like the Chemist I just fact-checked? Is that the kind of scientist you're referring to? If so, his training in chemistry didn't prove to show any real understanding of the material he was posting.

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just as there are scientists who see flaws in the global warming models.

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One such scientist at UC Berkeley was funded by the Koch Brothers to finally prove the skeptical position. In the end, he came up with the same result as the majority. His name was Richard Muller. You're welcome to google him. He now says that humans are almost entirely the cause of global warming. He's a Capricorn like us.

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Yet, when you say science, what you really mean is "government approved scientific positions."

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I do not. Are you going to sit there like Randall, and try to assign thoughts and beliefs to me despite the fact that I haven't espoused such thoughts?

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You seem incapable of incorporating these factors into your worldview. To you it's just: "If the government says it's true, it is."

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Nope. I sure don't. You think I do, because I end up on the government's side when butting up against views you espouse that are impractical in nature. I don't think the government's infallible, though.

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Sorry to be mean again, but after you told me off completely yesterday, I don't feel so bad.

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posted August 20, 2013 04:19 PM            

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Can't answer for Randall, but I spend a considerable amount of my alloted vax research time on pro-vax sites.

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Countless hours pouring over conflicting studies, sorting through the fear mongering pr on both sides, and I was more confused then when I began. Six months into it, I switched horses.

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People need a good roll model around here.

I kept the switching horses in there, too, because that is a major step when researching. It's not just about setting down one path. It's about traveling down a lot of relevant paths.

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Chicken pox? Seriously? I'm old enough to remember chicken pox parties. I'd love my son to come down with it.

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I agree.

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Measles? No prob.

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I'd struggle more with that one. The disease without complication is still an uncomfortable ordeal. Complications could make matters worse, but hopefully the medical community would minimize the risk there. Then there's the bad neighbor aspect of potentially infecting others in the community. The cost on that San Diego measles outbreak was outrageous.

Two-dose vaccination coverage of 95%, absence of vaccine failure, and a vigorous outbreak response halted spread beyond the third generation, at a net public-sector cost of $10,376 per case. Although 75% of the cases were of persons who were intentionally unvaccinated, 48 children too young to be vaccinated were quarantined, at an average family cost of $775 per child. ]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20308208

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Whooping cough? Same.

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I wouldn't mind vaccinating my young child at least. With older kids I agree it may not be an issue.

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Polio? Non issue.

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Unless someone returns from overseas with it.

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Meningitis ... here I wavered. Meningitis is lightning quick. It shoots first, asked questions later. Can be difficult to home diagnose as it well mimics flu like symptoms. The antibiotics used to treat it are quickly becoming ineffective. If I had more confidence in the vax, I might go with this one.

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They're 90% effective.

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If I were living in a Delhi ghetto, I might very well be persuaded to purchase a polio vax. If I were formula feeding my son, if he were in daycare, if he were exposed to many potential carriers, if I were a working mom forced to send my sick child to school for fear of losing my job or a call from the truant officer, if I knew little about the early symptoms of measles and how best to treat it, then I might have considered the MMR.

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I'm a big fan of context.

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Also, it's important to note that measles doesn't kill, some of its more severe (and rare) complications can kill. eg pneumonia, encephalitis. Measles is, in the pre-vax words of the AAP, a "benign childhood disease", but it isn't the common cold. It should be respected, and treated properly by well-informed parents under the direct supervision of a physician.
Deaths in the US are exceedingly rare. I don't believe the numbers are available for 2012, but the CDC reports 222 cases in the US for 2011. Most contracted while traveling out of the country. No deaths at all.

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Good point. I'm still stuck on being a good neighbor.

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I don't put much faith in Wakefield, I'm afraid.

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As to the opening post, I couldn't find any reference to which provision describes these draconian measures. Any article that refers to "A provision" or "doctors say" reminds me of Fox News and their "some people say" tactics.

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posted August 20, 2013 04:41 PM            

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But I know enough about a few topics to provide a discerning divergent view that is contrary to popular opinion obtained through societal brainwashing.

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That you claim "societal brainwashing" without a hint of humor is pretty disturbing. Vaccination doesn't amount to brainwashing.

quote:

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I don't have to Google the status quo; we all know that view.

---

You don't know that view. That's why I was asking you to Google it. If you had known that view, if YOU were the open-minded one between us, then you wouldn't have posted that article I just fact-checked.

quote:

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But have YOU looked at the other side? Doubtful.

---

I just ripped apart your article, which was written by the other side, and I did so in a very fair and even-handed manner.

posted August 20, 2013 05:06 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by AcousticGod:
I just ripped apart your article, which was written by the other side, and I did so in a very fair and even-handed manner.

---

You're so FUNNY, AG!

You set out to rip something apart, think you succeed, and then call the said ripping "fair."

quote:

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
Like the Chemist I just fact-checked? Is that the kind of scientist you're referring to?

---

See, I had said there are scientists coming out against vaccines and you brush them away in one swift motion. They are all like the one you "fact checked." They are all frauds, apparently. No need for you to consider any more since you "ripped apart" one of them! All the rest must be exactly like the first, LOGICALLY.

quote:

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
One such scientist at UC Berkeley was funded by the Koch Brothers to finally prove the skeptical position. In the end, he came up with the same result as the majority. His name was Richard Muller. You're welcome to google him. He now says that humans are almost entirely the cause of global warming. He's a Capricorn like us.

---

ROTFL...so one such scientist defected to the other side and this simplifies the whole picture. One conversion (of a Capricorn no less!) means all ought to follow in the same direction. Just like if one anti-vaccine scientist fails your tests, they are all incriminated simultaneously.

quote:

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
I do not. Are you going to sit there like Randall, and try to assign thoughts and beliefs to me despite the fact that I haven't espoused such thoughts?

---

I'm generalizing about your behavior as you've generalized about mine. I'll "sit here" like AcousticGod and generalize, thanks!

quote:

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
You think I do, because I end up on the government's side when butting up against views you espouse that are impractical in nature.

---

LOL...the government IS impractical, but you can live in your dream world forever for all I care. It's just blathering. Everyone sees it but you.

posted August 20, 2013 05:22 PM            

quote:

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I think second-guessing the motives of those who campaign for these medicines is a waste of energy, I had a family doctor who believed wholeheartedly in vaccination.

---

Indeed. You'll find in this forum, Catalina, that people almost constantly second-guess motives.

________________________________

quote:

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"There has never been a single vaccine in this country that has ever been submitted to a controlled scientific study. They never took a group of 100 people who were candidates for a vaccine, gave 50 of them a vaccine and left the other 50 alone, and measured the outcome. And since this has never been done, that means if you want to be kind, you will call vaccines an unproven remedy. If you want to be accurate, you'll call the people who give vaccines quacks." Robert S. Mendelsohn, M.D.

---

This characterization is no longer true. I don't know if it was during his time or not, but they have since performed such trials. There are significant hurdles in such an endeavor, however. You have to find people of the same health and general immune capacity, and you have to have the vaccination -in some cases- match the virus the un-vaccinated would encounter naturally in order to get accurate results.

In 1985, this was published. It states that the general principles for studying vaccine efficacy "is measured by calculating the incidence rates (attack rates) of disease among vaccinated and unvaccinated persons and determining the percentage reduction in the incidence rate of disease among vaccinated persons compared to unvaccinated persons.

posted August 20, 2013 05:32 PM            

quote:

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You set out to rip something apart, think you succeed, and then call the said ripping "fair."

---

It was. If you wish to state otherwise, go ahead, but don't act as if it wasn't without giving reason.

quote:

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See, I had said there are scientists coming out against vaccines and you brush them away in one swift motion. They are all like the one you "fact checked." They are all frauds, apparently.

---

I wish you had a point here, but you don't. I don't brush all the scientists aside in one fell swoop. What I'm saying is that the prevalent opinion is in contradiction with these elements, and they are generally in contradiction for a reason.

quote:

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ROTFL...so one such scientist defected to the other side and this simplifies the whole picture. One conversion (of a Capricorn no less!) means all ought to follow in the same direction. Just like if one anti-vaccine scientist fails your tests, they are all incriminated simultaneously.

---

I can't fathom why you think it would be funny to point out a highly respected doctor of Physics at UC Berkeley's attempt to debunk global warming. Yes, it is just one scientist, but he was the one shining hope for the skeptics in recent years to set out to disprove the science, and he instead found the science was already correct.

quote:

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I'm generalizing about your behavior as you've generalized about mine. I'll "sit here" like AcousticGod and generalize, thanks!

---

I don't generalize about your behavior. I've been quite specific.

quote:

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LOL...the government IS impractical, but you can live in your dream world forever for all I care. It's just blathering. Everyone sees it but you.

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You're thinking wishfully. It's not my dream world you have to contend with; it's your own.

quote:

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And it wouldn't be so annoying except you talk down to everyone.

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I don't. That's an over statement, and an over simplification. I talk down to those that can't bring a good argument. I happen to think that people should be able to defend their beliefs. Lacking that, I can have a difficult time.

quote:

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I don't think you ripped apart that chemist at all.

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posted August 21, 2013 06:59 AM            

quote:

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It was. If you wish to state otherwise, go ahead, but don't act as if it wasn't without giving reason.

---

Let's try this again. Is it *fair* to rip someone apart? Sounds you like have split intentions there. On the one hand, you want to be fair to them. On the other hand, you want to rip them apart.

These are contradictory tendencies, you see?

quote:

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I don't brush all the scientists aside in one fell swoop.

---

But you just did, above. When I point out to you what you're doing, you deny it and say you did something else. Well, the record is right there, anyone can see how your line of argumentation went.

quote:

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I can't fathom why you think it would be funny to point out a highly respected doctor of Physics at UC Berkeley's attempt to debunk global warming.

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That's not what's funny. It's just that you vaunt yourself on "ripping people apart" when your arguments are puny. You made it sound like you proved everything with this one (1) example.

quote:

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...he was the one shining hope for the skeptics

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No he wasn't.

quote:

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I don't generalize about your behavior. I've been quite specific.

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Yes, you make specific generalizations.

quote:

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I talk down to those that can't bring a good argument.

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Whatever.

posted August 21, 2013 07:28 AM            

quote:

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There has never been a single vaccine in this country that has ever been submitted to a controlled scientific study. They never took a group of 100 people who were candidates for a vaccine, gave 50 of them a vaccine and left the other 50 alone, and measured the outcome.

---

AG replies:

quote:

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This characterization is no longer true. I don't know if it was during his time or not, but they have since performed such trials.

---

Please tell us about them.

quote:

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In 2012, we see Congressman Bill Posey has taken over the task of trying to question the elusive and now somewhat greying Dr. Boyle from the CDC, about vaccinations and autism.

Congressman Posey asks:

“Dr. Boyle, my predecessor Congressman Welder was a well-respected, competent medical doctor and I glean from him with some certainty he felt thimerosal in vaccinations definitely was a contributory factor to autism and I wonder if the CDC has conducted or facilitated a study comparing vaccinated children with unvaccinated children yet? Have you done that?”

As expected, instead of answering the question asked of her, Dr. Boyle avoids his question completely and answers by stating:

“We have done a number of studies looking at the relationship between thimerosal vaccines and autism and other developmental disabilities.”

Not to give up on his line of questioning, Congressman Posey rephrased his question in the hope that he may have gotten a direct answer, asking:

“So, clearly, definitely, unequivocally, you have studied vaccinated versus unvaccinated?”

To which she replied:

“We have not studied vaccinated versus unvaccinated.”

---

posted August 21, 2013 02:15 PM            

quote:

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On the one hand, you want to be fair to them. On the other hand, you want to rip them apart.

---

I wish to be fair to them. That's correct. I don't typically rip people apart, but I do challenge spotty thinking regardless of whether it's mine or someone else's.

quote:

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But you just did, above. When I point out to you what you're doing, you deny it and say you did something else. Well, the record is right there, anyone can see how your line of argumentation went.

---

Is there or is there not a majority of scientists on the side of vaccination? If I go to any major medical community in the world will I find vaccination promoted? Saying that, "there are scientists coming out against vaccines," is incredibly vague, is it not? You like to make these really vague arguments, and then believe that what you said is both true and sufficient, because you said it. Who are you referring to? What scientific group do I need to tackle to meet your satisfaction? There is none, is there? You're going to have to go find one just so you can propose something specific...and then if I should find any problem with them, you won't accept it, because you're dead set on not accepting anything I say despite my proclivity for specificity. Isn't that right?

quote:

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It's just that you vaunt yourself on "ripping people apart" when your arguments are puny.

---

You have no idea. I mean, really. Maybe you should look into my history on this site if you think my arguments are "puny." We've literally debated global warming for years here. We were doing it even before Richard Muller undertook his project to prove the science of global warming didn't follow proper scientific method. There's a 26 page thread here titled Hell Freezing Over, which is just one of the many threads on the subject here.

quote:

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No he wasn't.

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Oh no? Are we being vague again?

quote:

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Yes, you make specific generalizations.

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And you haven't shown them to be correct, right? I'll give a right back.

quote:

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Please tell us about them.

---

quote:

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I'd like to know more about those trials, AG.

---

The primary argument made for an association between thimerosal and ASD is that the rate of diagnosis of ASD has been steadily increasing since the early 1990s. At that time also the routine vaccine schedule was increasing, resulting in an increasing total dose of thimerosal. The antivaccinationists then assume causation from correlation to blame rising ASD rates on thimerosal.

However, by 2002 thimerosal was completely removed from the routine vaccine schedule, and now remains only in some flu vaccines. The total dose of thimerosal exposure is far below 1990 levels, before ASD diagnoses began to rise. Antivaccinationists predicted that ASD rates would fall dramatically in the years following the removal of thimerosal from most vaccines, but rates have continued to rise without even the slightest change in the rate of increase. This is a powerful refutation of the thimerosal-autism hypothesis, and has been replicated in other countries. http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/reference/vaccines-and-autism/

That's the brief history version.

Here's IOM's scientific report: http://www.iom.edu/Reports/2004/Immunization-Safety-Review-Vaccines-and-Autism.aspx

This eighth and final report of the Immunization Safety Review Committee examines the hypothesis that vaccines, specifically the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine and thimerosal-containing vaccines, are causally associated with autism. The committee reviewed the extant published and unpublished epidemiological studies regarding causality and studies of potential biologic mechanisms by which these immunizations might cause autism.

The committee concludes that the body of epidemiological evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between the MMR vaccine and autism. The committee also concludes that the body of epidemiological evidence favors rejection of a causal relationship between thimerosal-containing vaccines and autism. The committee further finds that potential biological mechanisms for vaccine-induced autism that have been generated to date are theoretical only.

posted August 22, 2013 07:10 AM            

quote:

---

The majority of IOM studies and other activities are requested and funded by the federal government. Private industry, foundations, and state and local governments also initiate studies, as does the IOM itself.

---

But even so, epidemiological studies are not what we are talking about. We are talking about a study that is set up to compare vaccinated versus unvaccinated children.

Still, you love being very open to the other side of the story, don't you, AG? So let's consider what some health advocates have to say about your study:

quote:

---

The Institute of Medicine, which has long functioned as a front group for the pharmaceutical industry and receives tens of millions of dollars in annual funding from drug companies and global elitists (like Bill Gates, Ted Turner, etc.), has issued a report that declares the MMR vaccine is not linked to autism. This is now being widely reported in the conventional (controlled) media, which isn't telling you the real story behind this report.

What's the real story? That this IOM report, even though it goes out of its way to excuse vaccines and dismiss safety concerns, still openly admits that vaccines cause measles, febrile seizures, anaphylactic shock and other potentially fatal side effects. It also admits that other vaccines are linked to a whole host of bizarre side effects, including skin lesions, difficulty breathing and live virus infections (see complete list, below).

Furthermore, the conclusion that "vaccines do not cause autism" is erroneous, as the IOM did not interview even a single parent of an autistic child and did not conduct a medical review of any autistic children whatsoever. Instead, the IOM claims to have reviewed thousands of vaccine papers published in conventional medical journals -- yes, the very same medical journals that are practically run by pharmaceutical interests and have been caught publishing "scientific" articles that were really fraudulently ghostwritten by drug company hacks.

---

That's the thing, the parents who are noticing their children's change in behavior right after a set of shots ought to be taken seriously, yet government-generated "science" systematically disregards parental testimony.

As for your other link, I'm still looking for these trials that compare vaccinated with unvaccinated children....

quote:

---

This study is the first of its kind to evaluate the CDC recommended
childhood immunization schedule and autism spectrum disorder (ASD).
This case-control study was conducted in three U.S. managed care
organizations (MCOs) of 256 children with ASD and 752 matched controls
to evaluate the number of vaccine antigens received in the first two years
of life and the development of autism. Researchers examined two sub-categories of ASD: autistic disorder (AD) and ASD with regression. The findings showed that the amount of antigens from vaccines received on
one day of vaccination or in total during the first two years of life is not
related to the development of ASD.

---

It doesn't say the control group had NO vaccines. For all we know, they were just slightly less vaccinated than the children who received all possible shots. And I just quoted to you a Rep from the CDC admitting, in 2012, that they hadn't done any studies comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated children.

I asked you to show me these trials (not epidemological studies) that you are sure exist. Since you are sure they exist, you ought to be able to find one easily?

posted August 22, 2013 05:54 PM            

Bloggers say Obamacare provision will allow 'forced home inspections'

A startling Obamacare claim swept from blog to blog last week: "SHOCKING: Obamacare Provision Will Allow ‘Forced’ Home Inspections."

One blogger used a photo of armed officers entering a cottage, with the overline, "We’re from the government and we’re here to raid your home." Another said "this is why the IRS has been training with AR-15s."

A reader sent us a post from BenSwann.com, "Obamacare provision: ‘Forced’ home inspections."

He (I think that's ME) wondered if it were true. So did we.

South Carolina’s concern

"Forced home inspections"? Um, no.

The flurry originated with BenSwann.com blogger Joshua Cook on Aug. 13. He picked up the phrase "forced home inspections" from a state lawmaker in South Carolina.

Back in March, as a group of state legislators discussed a bill to fight the Affordable Care Act, Rep. Rick Quinn offered a specific example of something in the law that worried him: "The forced home inspections that I’ve heard about."

Cook was there. And the comment nagged him. He noticed people weren’t really writing about the issue.

"It's just been bothering me," he told PolitiFact.

So he wrote about it last week, talking with an attorney who spoke at the committee hearing and posting a video clip of Quinn’s comment.

"The point is South Carolina legislators believe it, and are convinced this is going to happen," Cook told us.

Quinn, indeed, had added an amendment to the South Carolina Freedom of Health Care Protection Act to prevent state workers from conducting any "involuntary … in-home visitation." It passed the House, but the Senate didn’t have a chance to vote. Cook says lawmakers hope to revive the legislation in the next session.

But that Obamacare program that worries Quinn? It already is — by statute — voluntary.

There’s literally nothing to suggest raids or weapons.

Home visiting programs

Concerned bloggers pointed to an Obamacare-funded grant program for "maternal, infant and early childhood home visiting." In 2011, the government announced $224 million in funding.

Most of those grants are going to health departments — none, so far, in South Carolina.

The idea: fund visits from nurses and social workers to high-risk families to help them develop skills to keep kids healthy, get them ready for school, and prevent child abuse and neglect.

Home-visit programs already existed in 40 states.

But to Kent Masterson Brown, a health care litigator invited by South Carolina lawmakers to help them avoid implementing Obamacare, the programs suggest overzealous nonprofits telling parents how to raise their children without their consent.

Brown raises the specter of a home-schooling family subject to "intervention" for school readiness, their children forced into schools and onto medications and vaccines.

"The federal government will now set the standards for raising children and will enforce them by home visits," he wrote about the law.

But consent is built into the program.

A home visitor could no more compel a family to vaccinate kids than a pediatrician could, said Kay Johnson, a professor of pediatrics at Dartmouth Medical School who’s one of the nation’s experts on state home visiting policy.

Here’s what the Affordable Care Act says: Home-visiting programs must assure they’ll have procedures that ensure "the participation of each eligible family in the program is voluntary."

Here’s how that might work, according to Sara Rosenbaum, a professor of health law and policy at George Washington University, who supports such programs.

A low-income mom gets her prenatal care at a community health center. Her doctor asks if she would like visits from a nurse after the baby comes to offer tips and answer questions.

Mom could say yes — or no.

It’s like the old days of health care, Rosenbaum said, when nurses would visit families to show how to breastfeed, sterilize bottles, care for babies and cope when you’re exhausted.

"It's real health education in the home, is the purpose of it," she said.

Such programs have a long history backed by peer-reviewed research, she said. They work.

"They make sure that you don't go home to nothing. It's done to help families, not to police them."

A classic randomized trial in Elmira, N.Y., showed nurse visits to families of newborns reduced child abuse and neglect, even years later. They also reduced government spending for low-income unmarried women.

Brown, the lawyer, says he’s concerned families have no protection from social workers. He’s concerned workers won’t be well-trained and will overstep families’ rights.

Nobody should knock on your door without a badge, he said.

"What I see in this is a monster, frankly. And you can quote me on that," he said.

That’s the fear.

The law, however, specifies that programs be voluntary, their staffs trained and supervised, and the home-visiting models they follow based on strong research.

Any "forced home inspection" wouldn’t be under the law — it would be in direct opposition to it.

And if a family welcomed help but later decided it made them uncomfortable?

Samantha Miller, a spokeswoman for the U.S. agency administering the program, said families could stop accepting services "without consequence at any time and for any reason."

Our ruling

Bloggers passed around a claim last week that a provision of the new health care law will allow "forced" home inspections by government agents.

But the program they pointed to provides grants for voluntary help to at-risk families from trained staff like nurses and social workers.

What bloggers describe would be an egregious abuse of the law — not what’s allowed by it. We rate the claim Pants on Fire. http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2013/aug/21/blog-posting/bloggers-say-obamacare-provision-will-allow-forced/

posted August 22, 2013 06:35 PM            

There is absolutely nothing "fair" in trying to discredit IOM, whilst also citing it as justification for worry. NaturalNews says, "IOM's making excuses regarding Autism, but we like their conclusions about vaccinations elsewhere." It's selective.

This...:

Furthermore, the conclusion that "vaccines do not cause autism" is erroneous, as the IOM did not interview even a single parent of an autistic child and did not conduct a medical review of any autistic children whatsoever. Instead, the IOM claims to have reviewed thousands of vaccine papers published in conventional medical journals -- yes, the very same medical journals that are practically run by pharmaceutical interests and have been caught publishing "scientific" articles that were really fraudulently ghostwritten by drug company hacks.

...does not make their study erroneous.

quote:

---

That's the thing, the parents who are noticing their children's change in behavior right after a set of shots ought to be taken seriously, yet government-generated "science" systematically disregards parental testimony.

---

You don't know that. You're assuming that. If you had gone to even the first linked study on the page I provided, you'd see:

Potential confounding factors were ascertained from parent interviews and medical charts. http://jpeds.com/webfiles/images/journals/ympd/JPEDSDeStefano.pdf

Second study:

Exposure to thimerosal in vaccines and immunoglobulin preparations was determined from electronic immunization registries, medical charts, and parent interviews. Information on potential confounding factors was obtained from the interviews and medical charts. http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/early/2010/09/13/peds.2010-0309.full.pdf

quote:

---

It doesn't say the control group had NO vaccines. For all we know, they were just slightly less vaccinated than the children who received all possible shots. And I just quoted to you a Rep from the CDC admitting, in 2012, that they hadn't done any studies comparing vaccinated to unvaccinated children.

---

It's interesting that you quote "the government" when it suits you, isn't it?
It does say that there is a control group, which implies that they haven't had the vaccine(s) being blamed for Autism.

quote:

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I asked you to show me these trials (not epidemological studies) that you are sure exist. Since you are sure they exist, you ought to be able to find one easily?

---

That's funny that YOU want ME to find you information. Aren't I always providing YOU with information? Aren't you, in return, always simply pronouncing things to be different than they are rather than coming up with information to counter?

An epidemiological study consists of trials. From my link, another link:

We conducted a retrospective cohort study of all children born in Denmark from January 1991 through December 1998. The cohort was selected on the basis of data from the Danish Civil Registration System, which assigns a unique identification number to every live-born infant and new resident in Denmark. MMR-vaccination status was obtained from the Danish National Board of Health. Information on the children's autism status was obtained from the Danish Psychiatric Central Register, which contains information on all diagnoses received by patients in psychiatric hospitals and outpatient clinics in Denmark. We obtained information on potential confounders from the Danish Medical Birth Registry, the National Hospital Registry, and Statistics Denmark. http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa021134

This study provides three strong arguments against a causal relation between MMR vaccination and autism. First, the risk of autism was similar in vaccinated and unvaccinated children, in both age-adjusted and fully adjusted analyses. Second, there was no temporal clustering of cases of autism at any time after immunization. Third, neither autistic disorder nor other autistic-spectrum disorders were associated with MMR vaccination. Furthermore, the results were derived from a nationwide cohort study with nearly complete follow-up data. http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa021134#t=articleResults

Are you beginning to see that you do, in fact, assume that because you believe something, that it must be true, despite what the data says?

posted August 22, 2013 07:04 PM            

quote:

---

This wasn't a trial like you're talking about. This was a study of effects on vaccinated versus unvaccinated done after the fact where no tampering with the evidence could have occurred to skew the results. They took into account EVERY child born in Denmark between 1991 - 1998. That's hundreds of thousands of children. There's more context to be had here: ]http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0749379703001132

---

I'll check that out.

Science DOES disregard parents, even if studies include parental interviews. The parents' testimonies of their concerns being ignored and downplayed are all over the web. There is this giant crowd of people not being heard.

quote:

---

Did it not bother you at all that the Natural News article you cited didn't contain a single non-Natural-News citation?

---

I don't subscribe to everything Natural News says (unlike the way you subscribe to everything the government/Establishment says.)

But anyway, you're wrong, here's a list of outside sources in the Natural News article I posted:

1) http://www.anh-usa.org/action-alert-is-the-institute-of-medicine-in-bed-with-big-pharm a/

2) http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(10)62247-7/fulltext

3) http://www.publichealthalert.org/Articles/miscellaneous/tuskeegee%202...

posted August 22, 2013 07:13 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by AcousticGod:
Without parents these studies might not exist.

---