posted August 19, 2019 10:25 PM            

i'm curious do you think someone who lacks charisma could really have as much sway as you think trump does? you've literally credited him for inciting shootings, creating hate groups etc and so on as if you think he has his own army doing his bidding operating outside of the law. how is it that you could consider someone uncharismatic and bad at leading (this has nothing to do with goals or ideals btw) if you simultaneously credit him with so much?

effective strong leaders are the ones who get people to obey them over the law, and a lack of charisma won't inspire that in people

so the truth is you must think he's a powerful leader and you only say he's lacking because you're viewing things with your emotions and ideals clouding your judgement

because you either think he's such a strong leader his followers would do anything to achieve his ideals (including mass shooting you believe he "inspired") or you think he's ineffective in which case you don't back a lot of your previous statements in other threads

posted August 19, 2019 11:03 PM            

socialism is on the opposite end of the same from capitalism

liberalism is on the opposite end of authoritarianism

posted August 19, 2019 11:10 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by BlueRoamer:
A dictatorship is not the same as socialism.

socialism is on the opposite end of the same from capitalism

liberalism is on the opposite end of authoritarianism

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posted August 19, 2019 11:28 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
Allow me to preface this information by stating that I have a Master's Degree in leadership (May 2015). There are several different styles of leadership. President Trump is a charismatic leader. To say that's going to make America a dictatorship is one of the most ignorant comments ever posted here. We are a Republic. How ironic that those who claim President Trump is a dictator want to move toward a Socialist state, where the government controls every facet of life, and to remove private healthcare.

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Socialism, control over the means of production. Now that's dictatorship!

posted August 19, 2019 11:39 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Dumuzi:
@teasel

i'm curious do you think someone who lacks charisma could really have as much sway as you think trump does? you've literally credited him for inciting shootings, creating hate groups etc and so on as if you think he has his own army doing his bidding operating outside of the law. how is it that you could consider someone uncharismatic and bad at leading (this has nothing to do with goals or ideals btw) if you simultaneously credit him with so much?

effective strong leaders are the ones who get people to obey them over the law, and a lack of charisma won't inspire that in people

so the truth is you must think he's a powerful leader and you only say he's lacking because you're viewing things with your emotions and ideals clouding your judgement

because you either think he's such a strong leader his followers would do anything to achieve his ideals (including mass shooting you believe he "inspired") or you think he's ineffective in which case you don't back a lot of your previous statements in other threads

pick one

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He has charisma with the people who love what he stands for. He does nothing for me - never has, and there are so many people out there like me. I don't need to pick anything. I know that I loathe him, and always have.

posted August 19, 2019 11:42 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
A dictatorship is not the same as socialism? Tell that to the Venezuelans.

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socialism can be authoritarian it can also be libertarian

posted August 19, 2019 11:47 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by teasel:
He has charisma with the people who love what he stands for. He does nothing for me - never has, and there are so many people out there like me. I don't need to pick anything. I know that I loathe him, and always have.

His supporters, and his daddy's money, gave him power. His supporters are about one-quarter of the citizens of this country. If more had voted, he wouldn't be where he is now.

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again you're talking about your perspective and your views when you discuss him, detach and look at the bigger picture

i'm not a trump supporter, but i can still tell you what aspects of his presentation are good

same as how i'm not a nazi but i can tell you about the **** hitler did right

you don't need to agree with someone in order to understand where they're successful and where they're not

again i'm asking you to look at this objectively so your opinions on his policies have no bearing

would you say a strong leader is one who can inspire people to obey them over the law (like you think trump has inspired people)? because personally i think someone would have to be for others to put them on a pedestal like that

you don't like him, and that's fine but also irrelevant

btw ive seen you cite clinton as having had the popular vote so saying "if more had voted" makes little sense

because the truth is if more people voted the results still aren't based on numbers in that manner, it's about winning states and the electoral college

also i'm not sure why you think someone as corrupt as clinton would've been better (i'm humoring you of course by pretending it matters all that much ultimately)

the reality is even if you believe votes work a 2 party system is largely idiotic anyway given the way issues are lumped together

clinton wouldve been different issues and all the underlying major problems that go beyond left or right wouldve also continued

posted August 19, 2019 11:52 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Dumuzi:
again you're talking about your perspective and your views when you discuss him, detach and look at the bigger picture

i'm not a trump supporter, but i can still tell you what aspects of his presentation are good

same as how i'm not a nazi but i can tell you about the **** hitler did right

you don't need to agree with someone in order to understand where they're successful and where they're not

again i'm asking you to look at this objectively so your opinions on his policies have no bearing

would you say a strong leader is one who can inspire people to obey them over the law (like you think trump has inspired people)? because personally i think someone would have to be for others to put them on a pedestal like that

you don't like him, and that's fine but also irrelevant

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posted August 19, 2019 11:55 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
Government ownership of the means of production and distribution of goods is all about control.

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again different degrees and shades, marxism for example seeks to dissolve the state

socialism is a matter of economy, authoritarian societies revolve around much more than just that

and fascism is both authoritarian and capitalistic

posted August 19, 2019 11:59 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by teasel:
It isn't irrelevant. He is not charismatic.

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it is irrelevant because i asked you to look at things objectively meaning keep your emotions out of it, the fact that you can't is just an issue you have that makes it impossible to have this discussion with you

your feelings on his views and your ideals have nothing to do with the leadership ability you attribute to him

fact is someone cannot get people to follow them to such a degree without any charisma whatsoever regardless of what views they held

posted August 20, 2019 12:04 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
No, you are not getting what I'm trying to convey. Anti-fascists advocating for fascist tenets. Simple.

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they're advocating for authoritarian government not fascism there's a difference

yes there are things in common but they are completely different forms of government ultimately

posted August 20, 2019 12:04 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Dumuzi:
it is irrelevant because i asked you to look at things objectively meaning keep your emotions out of it, the fact that you can't is just an issue you have that makes it impossible to have this discussion with you

your feelings on his views and your ideals have nothing to do with the leadership ability you attribute to him

fact is someone cannot get people to follow them to such a degree without any charisma whatsoever regardless of what views they held

when you have someone with "good" (subjective) views but zero charisma they wont have people put them above the law (something youve credited trump with)

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I'm not emotional, I'm being objective.

posted August 20, 2019 12:15 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by teasel:
I'm not emotional, I'm being objective.

His supporters put him above the law. The rest of us don't.

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you are being emotional because you immediately brought your own viewpoints and feelings into it

i didnt say people who didnt support him put him above the law, i'm saying people dont follow a leader and put them above the law when they lack charisma

being charismatic doesnt mean everyone loves and agrees with you, no one is universally loved to begin with

posted August 20, 2019 12:20 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Dumuzi:
you are being emotional because you immediately brought your own viewpoints and feelings into it

i didnt say people who didnt support him put him above the law, i'm saying people dont follow a leader and put them above the law when they lack charisma

being charismatic doesnt mean everyone loves and agrees with you, no one is universally loved to begin with

a leader with zero charisma will not inspire anyone to such great lengths though, they'll just get the job done at best

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posted August 20, 2019 12:37 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Dumuzi:
socialism can be authoritarian it can also be libertarian

socialism refers to economics not government control

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Absolutely, positively NOT TRUE

Socialism:

posted August 20, 2019 01:52 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by jwhop:
Absolutely, positively [b]NOT TRUE

Socialism:

any economic or political system based on government ownership and control of important businesses and methods of production
~Cambridge Dictionary~[/B]

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you do realize the government regardless of system has control over certain things? you could literally pick any system of government and what the government controls will be a part of it

my point is the level of control is what makes something authoritarian or not, and it's a specific brand of communism that's authoritarian in the same manner as fascism

you're grasping and reaching right now

the reality is it goes back to the economy yes the government controls the economy in socialism, but that doesn't necessarily make it authoritarian because you can have democracy within socialism which changes things

it is impossible to have any system of government where control isn't part of it, governments are authoritarian by nature to an extent but just how far that goes is what makes all the difference

the reality is you can have a dictatorship or you can have democratic socialism etc and so on and there's many different forms

fascism refers to dictatorship, and a very specific kind of dictatorship at that there are many distinct qualities that it has in order to make it count as such

when referring to a government as authoritarian no one is talking about whether or not it controls things (all governments do) but what level of control the government has and how much power is extended towards the people

yes economy is controlled by government in a socialist society but that isn't the equivalent of an authoritarian regime on all fronts (necessarily)

a dictatorship implies a huge imbalance of power between the people and the government in many ways whereas socialism can fall on the left without also being a dictatorship in spite of the government massively overreaching when it comes to the economy

posted August 20, 2019 01:56 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by teasel:
I have an Aries Sun, you have an Aries moon, right? We could be here all night.

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yeah and i have all night, i can be right for an indefinite amount of time tirelessly