posted March 01, 2021 03:01 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
I try to defer to my Mods' discretion. Juni moved a thread, and I didn't overrule it. I also supported you recently, even though it cost us a member. This is Juni's forum, and she wasn't present at the time to provide the teamwork you seek, yet you claim partiality in moderation and also say that Juni should have left. You can't have it both ways.

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That member broke the forum rules that you wrote. I thought it was my role to enforce the LL rules for the community. I did what I thought was right. If a member breaks the rules and then leaves when they are called out on it, how am I responsible for this? I didn't write the rules.

I didn't say Juniper should leave, however after seeing her try to address the exact same issue that has led me here, I said I wouldn't blame her. She is an asset to LL, I wouldn't want the community to lose her, but there are situations when a moderator steps in to manage a situation and it causes the breakdown of their relationship with the individual in question because the individual is so invested in themselves. They target the mod, so it really takes another mod, or the webmaster to settle things. I know you don't want to over-moderate GU and I understand your reasons for this, but without clear boundaries it is difficult for moderators to make the right decisions.

quote:

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I also did not see the later interactions on your thread or I would have stepped in. I didn’t see that until you asked for it to be closed.

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OK, I appreciate that.

posted March 01, 2021 03:14 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
@Moonmystic,

this thread is nothing compared to past difficulties. We lost quite a few members who had invested a lot in LL during the last rift. It was and continues to be a great loss to the community.

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Yes, and it happened before, too. Once when I was spending all of my time somewhere else, and came back to find people gone. Once before I registered in 2002. It happens, not just here. Even on a small private board that I've been a part of, that has nothing to do with LL - people will never get along all the time. Disagreement isn't always bad, it is good when it leads to people talking things out. I was reading a book last night, when someone was told that if you don't argue at all, you can't really be intimate with someone. The guy was talking to a woman who wanted people in her life - she wasn't really close to anyone.

posted March 01, 2021 03:19 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
I think some productive discussion has been generated on this thread.

I think a mod forum could be helpful, but it sounds like to help avoid the pitfalls of the last one, it may help to have some rules for that forum also. e.g. it's not just a flogging ground, it needs to be solution-focused and overseen by Randall to ensure that the discussions are actually about the problem and geared toward problem-solving.

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It needs to be a private/ mods only forum ... in which mods are able to release the pent up emotions that are an inevitable part of moderating. And members have to recognise that moderators need to let off steam from time to time ... because they are human, just like the rest of us.

posted March 01, 2021 03:29 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by MoonMystic:
@Graham ~ The human psyche can be a delicate matter. Many people come from abuse, tragedy , trauma .. One can't know how close another may be to the brink and online is pretty nebulous.

@ Teasel ~ I was just today wondering about LL in the past with these clashes. I was thinking due to todays explosion in almost every facet, maybe this us the worst? Can you tell me when it was worst in your opinion?
Pluto might be a key. When I read backwards to many yrs prev. it never looked so bad as now.

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If the comments that caused emotional pain were as harsh as claimed here, why can no-one now recall what those comments actually were?

When I was 12/13 years old, something about my physical appearance and manner (ascendant) resulted in one of my school teachers being unable to stand the sight of me ... yet the school timetable required me to attend several hours per week of classes run by this 6' 3" tall rugby player who weighed some 14-15 stones, and regularly threw me down flights of 30 steps and against walls made of solid concrete. That eventually ended after some 12 months, when he wrote in my school report that "I find him a thoroughly unprepossessing child" - and my father pursued his cry for help with the school, resulting in the teacher and I no longer having to interact with each other.

posted March 01, 2021 04:21 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by teasel:
I've been there, and I've understood, but it isn't as simple as that. Not always.

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After retiring from my professional career in 1993, I completed the training course required to become a UK Samaritan ... which made it very clear that offering tea and sympathy to those who are genuinely suicidal is not helpful - and that what does help is to get them to see things objectively rather than subjectively.

posted March 01, 2021 04:32 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Graham:
It needs to be a private/ mods only forum ... in which mods are able to release the pent up emotions that are an inevitable part of moderating. And members have to recognise that moderators need to let off steam from time to time ... because they are human, just like the rest of us.

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TBH, the only time I get so frustrated that I need to vent is when I feel I am following the guidelines and the site rules and getting nowhere. A coherent moderation team that supports each other should not lead to venting. All moderators have to do is remind people of the rules. If people continue to violate the rules then it can be referred to Randall for a decision. Venting is not really necessary, it doesn't have to get to that point.

If members have respect for the forum rules, then reminding people of these rules shouldn't lead to a stramash. We all push the boundaries at times, myself included, but we all need to be big enough to accept responsibility when we are called out on that.

I think what Randall said is part of the problem - the mod presence and visibility is low across LL, so it can feel like a free for all at times and when a mod does step in, it is more jarring than it would be if mods were more visible. So the moderator who sticks their neck out is seen as 'overmoderating' or just throwing their weight around - this is because the moderators are so inactive, so issues that should have been nipped in the bud are not noticed and dealt with.

posted March 01, 2021 05:44 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
TBH, the only time I get so frustrated that I need to vent is when I feel I am following the guidelines and the site rules and getting nowhere. A coherent moderation team that supports each other should not lead to venting. All moderators have to do is remind people of the rules. If people continue to violate the rules then it can be referred to Randall for a decision. Venting is not really necessary, it doesn't have to get to that point.

If members have respect for the forum rules, then reminding people of these rules shouldn't lead to a stramash. We all push the boundaries at times, myself included, but we all need to be big enough to accept responsibility when we are called out on that.

I think what Randall said is part of the problem - the mod presence and visibility is low across LL, so it can feel like a free for all at times and when a mod does step in, it is more jarring than it would be if mods were more visible. So the moderator who sticks their neck out is seen as 'overmoderating' or just throwing their weight around - this is because the moderators are so inactive, so issues that should have been nipped in the bud are not noticed and dealt with.

When I've put the mod hat on (which isn't really that often) and stepped in to address an issue, I have been accused of not addressing other issues of the same ilk. However I never seen these other issues because I am one person and I am not trawling the forum for problems. One person cannot be here all the time, hence why you need a visible team to maintain some consistency in moderation.

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In that context ... every member IS a moderator - since we all have a responsibility to comply with the rules.

The problem comes if/when we fail to understand that the right to speak freely has to be exercised responsibly ... and that anger or/and frustration are not valid reasons for behaving irresponsibly.

However, I recognise/accept that each of us may have different views on what is "responsible behaviour" ... particularly with regard to the issue of tea-and-sympathy vs home-truths.

posted March 01, 2021 05:49 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Graham:
In that context ... every member IS a moderator - since we all have a responsibility to comply with the rules.

The problem comes if/when we fail to understand that the right to speak freely has to be exercised responsibly ... and that anger or/and frustration are not valid reasons for behaving irresponsibly.

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posted March 01, 2021 10:28 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
Absolutely.

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posted March 01, 2021 10:45 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Graham:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Voix_de_la_Mer:
[b] Absolutely.

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posted March 01, 2021 11:34 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Graham:
It needs to be a private/ mods only forum ... in which mods are able to release the pent up emotions that are an inevitable part of moderating. And members have to recognise that moderators need to let off steam from time to time ... because they are human, just like the rest of us.

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Disagree ..
And I have stepped-into forums where mods went MIA -- until for whatever reason they decided to come back.

I was offered modship after a few months of registering. But I am NOT computer-savvy as the rest of you. I'm in physical torture every day, not able to leave. I arrive and do 'what I can' WHEN I can.

Graham Gently, you personally went and GOT THROUGH those suicidal periods in your life. And (am I hearing you say that) you did it because somewhere in you, you were TOUGH-enough to get through it without needing ANYONE's help, without ANYONE ministering kindness and help (tea and sympathy)? .. So maybe, therefore, you feel-inside that because YOU were able to do it, then 'everybody else' should do it like you? .. tea & sympathy ..
{{ADDING, and I realize I might 'not' be knowledgeable regarding that 'tea and sympathy' reference... so my apologies Graham, if this was specific to an incident I was not in the details-of.}} ---
Super-unfortunately, people are NOT all the same. (It would be easier if they were..)
A little Care and Kindness can be what 'some people' need to touch and awaken them on the inside, and help them momentarily sustain their time-period, as sometimes it takes 'time' to heal some wounds. Those are the wounds that the person heals themselves.
. .
A couple decades-plus ago I had gone through one of the darkest times. I called one of those 'help' lines-- they were one of those tough-love types. I made a note in my head, that IF I ever wanted the courage to go through-with suicide, all I had to do was to dial-up that number-- and be HURT so badly by the tough-tootty talk that I'd have what I needed emotionally to PUSH me over that line.
That's one of the reasons I think negatively of those 1-800 lines. They funnel you ONLY to 'your' area. Some areas, States of USA, have atrociously stiff and UNHELPFUL training, and with the WAY they handle those Calls for Help, there should be Consequences.
In the days BEFORE the 1-800, you could call ANYWHERE in the United States, and SOME States had better training and approaches taken their phone counselors. But Now?, kind of sucks for those who need help, and the phone-people are rude and hurtful to the callers.
.. It had been the beginning of the time where my marriage had broken down and my husband was stalking and taunting me psychologically.. I was in a great deal of fear... and so depressed. -- So, one time in a kind of inner-crisis, I picked up the phone and called someone at a christian prayer line. .. What she did and said makes me gasp for air STILL today.
She started (with her WHOLE HEART) Thanking GOD for my Life, and for all the Lives I had ever touched and aided along the way. I HAD Made a Difference, I HAD already helped many. She had tapped into Spirit.. and her response was sooooo Nurturing. She 'nurtured' my wound, my pain... And NOW, when I feel I need someone to talk to me, I REPLAY her response to me, in my memory... Thank GOD for that Loving and Compassionate older black lady (who was there to do cleaning in the office after-hours)-- The effects of that Call, still does Good.
. .
Your idea of giving people a K.I.T.A. might not be appropriate to all. You have to be VERY discerning.. VERY careful... very. Finding empathy, and "putting yourself in another person's shoes", not 'assuming' they have your ability at reacting to K.I.T.A. with toughening-you up in a positive way. ......
POSITIVELY as a credit to you too,
I've watched you work with some here in the Personal Readings.. I thought what you presented was 'just-what they needed' to hear.. (even if they resisted). I am CONFIDENT that at some point in their life, they WILL be able to make good gains, because of what you said, and how you handled yourself... *thumbsup**
I thank you for that, greatly. I knew that you, as as a male, would be able to plant a very significant puzzle-solving thought for their life. I deeply appreciated you doing that for them. *heart*
. .
I remember too, a woman who used to be here, who suffered with severe manic-swings.. and crazy accusations. She was suffering, and was out of control.
You posted an appreciation to me, and said basically you were surprised that I posted it IN the involved-thread (before it was closed)?
Gently, Why wouldn't I, Graham?
It was the The Right Thing to Do, to Stand BY you on it?
(Wondered if maybe you hadn't realized the woman was 'acting-out' because of her illness?) ?

________
Teasel, Okay, now I see it. 'Zala' is a woman. The name of member who bumped Juni's Birthday thread is Azalaksh ... deriv = Zala ... Mme Z.
Thanks for putting that piece together for me.

_________

Lindaland had gone through a split-- A significant number of more-highly skilled members unregistered, did some major deleting in their rich-threads. Was because of a certain mod. Grievance involved a chunk of some of the most-active members at that time---
Graham, it would not have helped to limit any venting ONLY among mods. The 'mod' was the problem then.
I don't want to go into the issue.
There are a significant number of threads that kept popping up throughout the forums, ending with them being Locked, one after the other.
. .
I believe it was our "Voix" who took it upon herself to play the role of an EXCELLENT mediator, very very balanced and fair? ..
{Or was it Doux Reve? LOL. This goes WAYYY back.}

In my earliest days here---
some of the mods were going INTO (my) threads, and EDITING/adjusting materials I had posted.
One was doing it out of helpful-kindness-- she was a grammar-aficionado, and 'knew' that I'd be going into that post later to do an edit for errors-- She'd beat me to it. *grin*
Then, same time -- another of the mods had gone through a streak of being kind of gayPhobic, and took it upon herself to intervene, going into my posts to delete comments and songs that didn't meet with her approval? *eek* (Elton John???)
... omg, so silly, yeah?
I think Randall got involved somewhere in the background and ended it. (thanks!! R)
. .
The result of that huge escalation, brought forth a Declaration of "The Rules" --
one for being a Mod, and another for being a member.
. .
I know there were other kinds of grievances going on (between Mods) at that time.. but I preferred to stayed out of it, to respect them.

So.
This Thread right now, is the kind of thread that used to POP Up. Members became aware, and would jump in with anything they wanted to add to the convo.

Again,
I think that it was VOIX who had done a VERY skilled job at Mediation during that period. I was SOO impressed at her 'calm', her clarity in understanding, her balance. She would occasionally stop and create a Summary of the convo, and things to be decided.
*thumbsup*!!! Voix.

posted March 01, 2021 02:16 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by graham:
The lady on the Christian prayer line was not providing tea and sympathy, mirage. ... She was getting you to see things objectively, rather than subjectively.

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Then I mustn't understand tea and sympathy.

"objectively?" --
She didn't have the quality of a "dry uncaring stone."

I'd never had someone express such genuine pure Celebration and THANKS for my life on Earth. Conversation wasn't long. She understood the pain-state I was in--

posted March 02, 2021 02:35 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by mirage29:
Then I mustn't understand tea and sympathy.

"objectively?" --
She didn't have the quality of a "dry uncaring stone."

I'd never had someone express such genuine pure Celebration and THANKS for my life on Earth. Conversation wasn't long. She understood the pain-state I was in--

By 'objective'? ..
Perhaps when we both went into 'into prayer and supplication' together, then reaching out to God provided 'a third'.
I was shocked though. I'd never heard someone pray like that.

She sounded like a grandmother...
Perhaps her instincts 'knew' what I needed.
Truly humbling, and powerful experience, to have had someone express actual real gladness for another person. She seemed to Know my Heart.

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The tea and sympathy focus would have been upon him/the problem ... This lady put the focus upon you/the solution.

posted March 02, 2021 08:02 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
Voix, I wasn't blaming you for losing a member. I stated it only to reinforce that I try to remain impartial and that I try to support the decisions of Mods and generally defer to their discretion.

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posted March 02, 2021 09:33 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Graham:
The tea and sympathy focus would have been upon him/the problem ... This lady put the focus upon you/the solution.

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I see. Thanks.
Always looking for the solution here.

posted March 02, 2021 01:14 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Graham:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by shura:
[b]Your assumption here is the jokes and comments made were in some way insightful. That's a heck of an assumption. You are also assuming that people are "ready". That is an assumption the "ready" do not make.

I don't recall who exactly was taunted, or what the comments were, but I do remember several members feeling quite hurt about things said behind their backs by mods who, by understood definition, are expected to be at least somewhat about the fray.

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[/B][/QUOTE]

The Ready will subdue their emotional response, yes. Or rather they will explore and assess the emotional response.
However, what I'm getting at is Readiness bespeaks discernment. ie The Ready can identify readiness in others and proceed accordingly, and also determine to what degree a "hurtful" statement is useful or simply a product of the speaker's own issues.

ofc all this requires much practice and usually careful guidance.