posted May 23, 2021 09:09 PM            

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Originally posted by Chanterelle:
Okay, gotcha... I still think this particular law is a crappy one, and it’s hard for me to see the push toward stricter abortion laws as being about anything other than separation of church and state. If that’s really not the issue, then there’s got to be a better way of going about it... I mean, you can outlaw selfishness and stupidity in every possible form, but what good would it do?

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i just don't see it as a religious issue to draw a line on what constitutes as unlawful killing and what doesn't

it's like how assisted suicide requires someone to be sound of mind (i'm completely for assisted suicide btw) because otherwise things become a grey area with a huge potential for abuse

we draw lines with murder all the time giving it degrees, deciding what is and isn't excusable this is the same

posted May 23, 2021 09:11 PM            

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Originally posted by Belage:
You are correct. The fetus/baby's worth has become entirely subjective and is based on how the mother feels about it, and the father has practically nothing to say.

In a way, because nature has chosen to design that life to grow inside the woman, not inside the man, it does become her decision, however unfair it seems.

I have said to the men who complain about the unfairness of it, pick carefully who you impregnate. Do not impregnate women whose values do not align with yours, no matter how horny you are.

If we are asking women to exercise foresight and caution in making sure they don't get pregnant, then we must also remind the men to exercise discernment in who they choose to have sex with. Too many men think with their penises.

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posted May 23, 2021 09:12 PM            

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Originally posted by placidus_flamingo:
49% of women who get abortions live below the poverty line
Pretty sure Medicaid doesn’t cover it everywhere. Esp non emergency.
Most women do use birth control.
And the majority of abortions are before the end of first trimester so this “late term” bs is just that, bs.

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wasn't just talking about medicaid there's other options, also none of this has ever been about making it so women couldn't kill their babies at all

posted May 23, 2021 09:49 PM            

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Originally posted by placidus_flamingo:
49% of women who get abortions live below the poverty line
Pretty sure Medicaid doesn’t cover it everywhere. Esp non emergency.
Most women do use birth control.
And the majority of abortions are before the end of first trimester so this “late term” bs is just that, bs.[/B]

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Can you tell us the source for this figure? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

posted May 23, 2021 10:35 PM            

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Originally posted by Belage:
Can you tell us the source for this figure? I can't seem to find it anywhere.

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posted May 24, 2021 05:00 AM            

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Originally posted by Dumuzi:
i just don't see it as a religious issue to draw a line on what constitutes as unlawful killing and what doesn't

it's like how assisted suicide requires someone to be sound of mind (i'm completely for assisted suicide btw) because otherwise things become a grey area with a huge potential for abuse

we draw lines with murder all the time giving it degrees, deciding what is and isn't excusable this is the same

i think when it costs someone's life selfishness and stupidity becomes a bit different

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posted May 24, 2021 12:12 PM            

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Originally posted by Chanterelle:
I basically agree, but I don’t think you’re getting what I’m saying. It isn’t and shouldn’t be exclusively a religious issue, but it seems like a lot of the people pushing for these kinds of laws are the type who basically use religious sentiment as a cover for authoritarianism. I hope it’s obvious that I’m acknowledging this is only one of many forms of manipulation/control— it’s the one I’m focusing on because I happen to know an awful lot of people who seem inclined to vote for and donate money to whatever their pastor says. But you can substitute pretty much anything for “pastor” in that sentence, and I’d have the exact same problem with it.

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my bad, i haven't really been sleeping, i get that you're saying for them in particular to do it it's coming from that place

posted May 24, 2021 05:09 PM            

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Originally posted by Dumuzi:
wasn't just talking about medicaid there's other options, also none of this has ever been about making it so women couldn't kill their babies at all

they still can, you should be happy about that 🤷‍♀️

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Maybe not to you, but a law that makes abortions illegal before most women know they’re pregnant, that makes no exception for cases involving rape and incest, and allows private citizens to sue medical practitioners who offer them, is about banning abortion completely.

posted May 24, 2021 05:29 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by placidus_flamingo:
Maybe not to you, but a law that makes abortions illegal before most women know they’re pregnant, that makes no exception for cases involving rape and incest, and allows private citizens to sue medical practitioners who offer them, is about banning abortion completely.

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being raped is a really obvious thing, you can't exactly miss it you know that right? it's not something you just miss or forget about, and when pregnancy is a concern as a result it doesn't just slip your mind

posted May 24, 2021 06:31 PM            

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Originally posted by Dumuzi:
being raped is a really obvious thing, you can't exactly miss it you know that right? it's not something you just miss or forget about, and when pregnancy is a concern as a result it doesn't just slip your mind

this law is not banning it completely, you said it yourself average woman finds out prior to 6 weeks, now suddenly 6 weeks is before they find out? make up your mind

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RE: rape.
A lot of people remember, a lot of people don't. It's very common to bury memories as a trauma response. It's also common for rape victims to be drugged. This girl I roomed with in college only guessed at what happened because she couldn't remember and woke up wet all over after accepting a drink at a bar that she didn't see being prepared. Random anecdotes aside, it's not your moral stance I disagree with, but the fact that it relies on a lot of assumptions.

RE: abortion
Sorry that should say "many;" it's hard to pin an exact number on it. The study I posted early has that as the average 5.5 weeks, which while technically leaving time, probably isn't enough time to get an appointment if you want one.

You made me curious though so I googled "Abbott" and "abortion" and searched through the first 6 hits. They all seem to agree that many women don't know.

"which can occur as early as six weeks into pregnancy and before many people know they are pregnant."

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/19/politics/texas-abortion-heartbeat-ban/index.html

"By banning abortion after the six-week mark, many women in Texas who are not even aware they are pregnant will not be allowed to get the procedure done in the state."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/05/19/texas-abortion-law-abbott/

"passed by both chambers of the Republican-dominated Texas legislature, bars abortion at six weeks of pregnancy with no exception for rape or incest, amounting to a near-total ban as most women are not aware they are pregnant at this stage."

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/may/19/texas-abortion-ban-law-greg-abbott

"The legislation, also known as the “heartbeat law,” amounts to an outright ban on abortion, as many women are not aware they are pregnant at the six-week mark"

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/19/us/texas-abortion-law.html

"Dyana Limon-Mercado, executive director of Planned Parenthood Texas Votes, the political arm of Planned Parenthood affiliates in Texas, said the six-week cutoff amounted to an effective ban on abortions in the state.

'When you factor in the time it takes to confirm a pregnancy, consider your options and make a decision, schedule an appointment and comply with all the restrictions politicians have already put in place for patients and providers, a six-week ban essentially bans abortion outright,' she said."

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/05/18/texas-heartbeat-bill-abortions-law/

"That’s as early as six weeks’ gestation, before many people know they are pregnant, making the bill a de facto ban on nearly all abortions."

https://www.vox.com/22444100/texas-bans-abortion-6-weeks-supreme-court

So most women don't know until somewhere around six weeks. If I understand your argument correctly, to not know/do something about it earlier is not a good enough reason to get an abortion after 6 weeks, maybe a moral failing on the part of those women? There might be some women who deliberately wait and then opt for an abortion, as opposed to plan b or something. Actually forget maybe, I'm sure there are. But there are many who aren't. Many people who for a variety of reasons don't know they're pregnant for a couple months and then take a minute to make a decision about it.

I need to look back through the stats, but *I think* it was mostly single women, who are living in poverty, AND who already have a kid. Oh yeah and in their 20s like you said. So prefrontal cortex is developed. The fact that many have already had kids, have bonded or whatever, and still want to make that decision, idk i think they should have the right to do that.

posted May 24, 2021 09:07 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by placidus_flamingo:

RE: rape.
A lot of people remember, a lot of people don't. It's very common to bury memories as a trauma response. It's also common for rape victims to be drugged. This girl I roomed with in college only guessed at what happened because she couldn't remember and woke up wet all over after accepting a drink at a bar that she didn't see being prepared. Random anecdotes aside, it's not your moral stance I disagree with, but the fact that it relies on a lot of assumptions.

RE: abortion
Sorry that should say "many;" it's hard to pin an exact number on it. The study I posted early has that as the average 5.5 weeks, which while technically leaving time, probably isn't enough time to get an appointment if you want one.

You made me curious though so I googled "Abbott" and "abortion" and searched through the first 6 hits. They all seem to agree that many women don't know.

"which can occur as early as six weeks into pregnancy and before many people know they are pregnant."

https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/19/politics/texas-abortion-heartbeat-ban/index.html

"By banning abortion after the six-week mark, many women in Texas who are not even aware they are pregnant will not be allowed to get the procedure done in the state."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/05/19/texas-abortion-law-abbott/

"passed by both chambers of the Republican-dominated Texas legislature, bars abortion at six weeks of pregnancy with no exception for rape or incest, amounting to a near-total ban as most women are not aware they are pregnant at this stage."

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/may/19/texas-abortion-ban-law-greg-abbott

"The legislation, also known as the “heartbeat law,” amounts to an outright ban on abortion, as many women are not aware they are pregnant at the six-week mark"

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/19/us/texas-abortion-law.html

"Dyana Limon-Mercado, executive director of Planned Parenthood Texas Votes, the political arm of Planned Parenthood affiliates in Texas, said the six-week cutoff amounted to an effective ban on abortions in the state.

'When you factor in the time it takes to confirm a pregnancy, consider your options and make a decision, schedule an appointment and comply with all the restrictions politicians have already put in place for patients and providers, a six-week ban essentially bans abortion outright,' she said."

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/05/18/texas-heartbeat-bill-abortions-law/

"That’s as early as six weeks’ gestation, before many people know they are pregnant, making the bill a de facto ban on nearly all abortions."

https://www.vox.com/22444100/texas-bans-abortion-6-weeks-supreme-court

So most women don't know until somewhere around six weeks. If I understand your argument correctly, to not know/do something about it earlier is not a good enough reason to get an abortion after 6 weeks, maybe a moral failing on the part of those women? There might be some women who deliberately wait and then opt for an abortion, as opposed to plan b or something. Actually forget maybe, I'm sure there are. But there are many who aren't. Many people who for a variety of reasons don't know they're pregnant for a couple months and then take a minute to make a decision about it.

I need to look back through the stats, but *I think* it was mostly single women, who are living in poverty, AND who already have a kid. Oh yeah and in their 20s like you said. So prefrontal cortex is developed. The fact that many have already had kids, have bonded or whatever, and still want to make that decision, idk i think they should have the right to do that.

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so i sort of read all that and i have a bit of an odd request before we continue with this conversation, would you mind going on vocaroo and saying literally ******* anything so i can hear you?

the voice i've given you when i read what you write is terrible and affects everything i'm reading and i don't think i can fairly communicate with you because of it 🤔

🤷‍♀️ i know that's a weird thing to say but i'll love you forever if you humor me and i feel like we'd probably have a better conversation (unless you have the voice i've given you in which case... 😬 but i want to give you the benefit of the doubt)

posted May 24, 2021 09:37 PM            

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Originally posted by placidus_flamingo:
haha what are you expecting? valley girl with vocal fry?

Yeah I guess you can hear me speak. it should go both ways though.

(delete)

pls respond once you've seen so i can delete.

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posted June 01, 2021 12:39 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Belage:
You are correct. The fetus/baby's worth has become entirely subjective and is based on how the mother feels about it, and the father has practically nothing to say.

In a way, because nature has chosen to design that life to grow inside the woman, not inside the man, it does become her decision, however unfair it seems.

I have said to the men who complain about the unfairness of it, pick carefully who you impregnate. Do not impregnate women whose values do not align with yours, no matter how horny you are.

If we are asking women to exercise foresight and caution in making sure they don't get pregnant, then we must also remind the men to exercise discernment in who they choose to have sex with. Too many men think with their penises.

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Women are the gatekeepers by divine (biological) decree, yes. A women who does not account for the father's wishes and the baby's needs abuses her responsibility.

quote:

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I have said to the men who complain about the unfairness of it, pick carefully who you impregnate.

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that's a fair statement. Likewise to women we could say, "don't become impregnated unless you wish to or are willing to become a mother, and not by a man you don't believe will responsibly father your child." But too many women just don't think. Equal share of responsibility and control, yes?

But if we demand the women be granted full decision making authority, then likewise she must bear full responsibility. As I understand it, what you're suggesting is women be given all the control but half the responsibility.

posted June 01, 2021 12:42 PM            

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Originally posted by shura:
Youre avoiding the question. Why? I'll ask again.

Did democrats support giving the extra $500 per child to pregnant women? Do you?

Why are you claiming the proposed amount why 500 per month?

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quote:

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Originally posted by shura:
Still thinking on it, teasel?

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