posted February 04, 2011 12:26 PM            

To me the age of consent, and issues about adults dating teens or children is at the core of this discussion topic, not off topic.

Like I said, the *spirit* of the law is that even if the older party is holding off on having sex with or fondling the 14-year-old, the atmosphere and nature of the relationship may be too adult/inapproprite for his growth and he is too young to realize that now or decide for himself. I would personally be happy to have my teen date, if I had a teen, but not okay with him/her dating an adult 5 years older until he/she was over 18.

Re: the letter of the law, in most states, now that I'm looking into it, sexual intercourse with minor between 12 and age of consent, if the older person is 3+ years older, is classified as "statutory rape" or "rape"; kissing or fondling for either party's arousal is "sexual abuse." The pentalies increase in some states with an increased age gap.

18 may be the age of consent, but I do think when a 40-something-year-old or 53-year-old gets involved with a 19-year-old, there's something questionable about the situation, and chances are that the younger party is struggling with the legacy of abuse in the family, and that he/she might feel different about the relationship later. In my experience interviewing people, most adults are making solid, safe choices after age 30...adults in their teens and twenties are still very vulnerable. That doesn't mean that a 20-year-old isn't in a position to make his/her own romantic choices. It's just that I see it a LOT where a teen or young adult will think an age gap relationship is a good thing, and feel very different about it later.

I do think that kind of relationship can be a sign of psychological problems in the case of the teen/very young adult and the older person...and I think that does change when everyone's over 25 or 30. I'm not sure why, just from experience talking to people about their relationships. People who have been adults living adult lives for longer seem to make solider decisions about their romantic lives, and I think at that point an age gap can work.

posted February 04, 2011 01:31 PM            

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Originally posted by Lucia23:
But Kat, what if someone who was 17 wanted to date your 11-year-old?

Would you feel just as comfortable if the woman dating your 16.5 year old was 57, not 21?

At a certain point, "age gap" becomes pedophilia. The problem is that no one can agree on that point. Even people who are all--"It's all about the soul, age is nothing but a number" often have a certain point where they get skeeved out.

When I was a teen, most of the guys I was attracted to were in their twenties. Now that I'm in my mid-thirties, most of the guys I'm attracted to are in their twenties. I don't know that the age of men I'm attracted to will necessarily change as I get older.

There's controversy about when people are old enough to decide who to date, without interference from their parents or the law. No one would think a 61-year-old dating a 55 year old was a problem. Some people would think a 21-year-old dating a 16 year old was a problem, it's illegal in some states, I think. LOTS of people would think a 17-year-old "dating" an eleven-year old was just plain old sexual abuse.

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Lucia...I absolutely agree with you...and if I had 'known' about the age difference, before meeting her, I would have hit the roof...that is why they hid it for months..lol I found out after I had met her a few times, I never would have know had I not been told...of course that is why I didn't find out right away, because their synastry shows it was destined on a very spiritual level..
I do feel however, that once someone is of legal age, it becomes their choice...I do have a friend of 35 years, who dated a man who is 25 years her senior, they dated for years, then were married, and now have been together for 30 years...so you just never know..

Kat

posted February 04, 2011 05:30 PM            

Kat, it makes more sense knowing that you weren't aware of the age gap when it started...also, that the age gap doesn't show. I know it must be very different dealing with these issues as a parent in real life, rather than theoretically!

If when I was nineteen or twenty I'd felt a deep and powerful connection to a fourteen-year-old boy, I would probably not have acted on it, even if what I felt was very strong. I think I would've found my own feelings worrying and questionable.

posted February 04, 2011 05:37 PM            

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But all that matters is that the two people in the relationship are happy. FTW!

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I do disagree. Sometimes a fourteen-year-old feels happy to be hooking up with a twenty-five-year-old crush, or a twenty-one-year-old college student feels happy to cut classes to experiment with hard drugs, or a sixteen-year-old wants to not go to school, or a 58-year-old professor feels happy to have sex with 21-year-olds he meets at the local bar, or a thief enjoys spending money he stole.

Sometimes people make decisions that are shaped from growing up in damaging circumstances, and choose to do things that are unhealthy or harmful for them. Or others!

posted February 04, 2011 05:45 PM            

To the original poster: I think one useful thing to do is ask yourself whether you're struggling with any issues about your father or father figures. Were you treated violently, sexualized early, abandoned or neglected by any adult men whose care you were in as a kid?

If so, this might be a hint that you are ready in your life to address and heal from those issues.

posted February 04, 2011 08:06 PM            

I do not have any father problems or anything... I actually meant to pop that in this thread somewhere b/c it's obviously a plausible reason as to why I would be drawn to an older man.

This man is close to 50 yrs. old, he isn't rich and he isn't good-looking. I wish we could be just friends, buds... but he keeps telling me that he's in love with me. We have not been physical in any way. Actually (lol) I don't even let him hug me because I think even that's too intimate. I posted this because I think the "age gap" topic is interesting, yes, in both directions, of any genders, with any people.

I just know that there's more there than just friendship at hand. I am telling you; if this man and I were the same age (approximately) I would be head over heels in love. I wouldn't be able to get my head out of the gutter! And that's because of the chemistry between us. But I literally feel like there's this blockage, I am messed up over the age difference. If anything the most honest thing I can say is that he reminds me too much of my Dad, and that's crossing some boundary.

posted February 04, 2011 08:58 PM            

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Originally posted by Randall:
Lucia, you make comparisons on my behalf where there are none. I am not talking about drugs or stealing or underage issues. I am talking about two consenting adults in a romantic relationship--whether an age gap, race difference, or same sex. In those three scenarios, as long as both parties are happy, that IS what matters. It doesn't matter what armchair psychologists (who have high suicide rates) say or what nosey busybodies whisper in ears as they stare at such couples (who are often in loveless marriages themselves). You have every right to disagree, and you may think that only people of the same exact age can truly be happy, but with all of the dysfunctional toxic relationships in the world, I say to grab happiness where you can get it (in an adult consentual context only, of course). How do you define a healthy relationship but by the happiness that it creates? That is the only true measure. And I would say that also applies to a very tall man with a very short woman, a woman much taller than the man, a large person and a skinny person, or any other combination that appear outside of the norm. But as I told Oranges in my first responses to her, society reacts very strongly against age gaps, even when it's none of their business, thus making said relationships very difficult. People worship numbers. Society is obsessed with age.

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quote:

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How do you define a healthy relationship but by the happiness that it creates? That is the only true measure.

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posted February 04, 2011 10:01 PM            

VERY often sexually abused kids and teens feel a closeness to the perpetrator, and feel "happy" about the relationship at the time. Then later, they see it in a different light. That's why the laws can be helpful--14 (for example) is too young to "consent" to being kissed or fondled by a grown-up.

So people being "happy" in a relationship can be a complicated issue, even between consenting adults--some people (mostly victims of family violence themselves as kids) feel very attached to a violent relationship, as one example, and will not press charges when their partner beats them bloody and beats their kids. Some of these people will describe the relationship as "happy."

Sometimes sexual abuse victims feel terrible shame later, because the abuse felt good physically at the time and they felt great love for the adult who was being sexual with them, so when they realize something wrong was happening, it harms them enormously.

Randall: I never thought Oranges was talking about an illegal/underage relationship. What I meant was that the general subject invited discussion of all kinds of age-gap relationships. At what point would you think someone was a crappy mother for failing to break up and/or report an illegal relationship between her kid and a grown up? If the kid was 13? 12? 11? Or maybe there's no point when you would think that.

Would you just say, "Oh, her son hooked up with his girlfriend when they were 9 and 28, but they're happy Soul Mates now and, even though their relationship is still illegal in many states, I'm convinced she's a wonderful mother?" Isn't there a certain point when letting an adult fool around with your teen or child is a sign of lousy parenting? I'm not saying Kat has crossed that line morally, I haven't made up my mind, but she's crossed it and still crossing it legally. And I like that there's a line, I agree there should be one!

Oranges: It sounds like your idea to explore a friendship and see how things feel with this guy you're very drawn to is a great choice. It sounds like you are in touch with yourself and listening to your intuition as things progress, and that's really important.

Anyway, I said I was getting off this thread! But I came back! Sorry! But I really am going to get off of it, because it's making me mad, and thankfully, state laws now reflect my concerns.

posted February 05, 2011 12:56 AM            

..And when I was freshman-14(I was a summer baby) so many peers in my class and upper class were older than me, but when I was 14 I hung out with Seniors(18-20)both girls and guys and I never looked at them as pedophiles for hanging out with us freshmans, I just thought of them as high schoolers like myself..cause hey were in the same highschools and also I shared a lot of my extracurriculars, clubs and honors classes with Seniors, bascially had the same interests highschool wise.

Yes, I may have flirted with some Seniors as did other freshmans, we thought it was awesome to be hanging with the Seniors, we felt like the "cool" kids or whatever and teenagers are so hormonal, emotional, insecure and all that mess ontop of trying to "fit in" that all that laws, courts, illegal/legal just kinda sits on the backburner.

So when I was Senior-17(not so long), my Senior crew and I hung out with under classmans and no we didn't think of "ourselves" as pedophiles or vice versa and a underclassman friend of mine was dating one of my Senior friends, and at that time I was like "Hey good for you guys" never thought it was creepy and niether did the teachers that saw them in the hallway hugging or holding hands at lunch outside and their parents were supportive of their relationship because "we" all looked at is as a highschooler dating another highschooler..*shrugs*..

And now in college knowing the age laws fully well, I still think of it that way when I was flirting with Seniors.. I was a highschooler flirting with another highschooler.

posted February 05, 2011 01:16 AM            

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I agree with the statutory laws.

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Then why do you think it's just fine that Kat has broken them? And how can you have no doubts that she's a "wonderful mother?"

If you agree with the laws, why do you think a parent breaking the law and allowing an adult 5 years older to be romantically involved with her son (perhaps sexually also--if sexually, it's "rape", if they only ever kissed or touched in the years before he turned sixteen, it's "sexual abuse," not "rape" or "statutory rape") is acceptable?

What bothers me is that blatent contradiction in your position.

And you still haven't answered my question--at what point would this person's encouragement of her teen's involvement with an adult cause you to feel she might be doing something wrong as a parent? If her child had been 13 instead of 14? 12? 11? 10? 9? 8? At what point would it make you think, Hmm, maybe she's not such a wonderful mother?

You've said you agree with the statutory rape laws, but if so, you agree that Kat has done something wrong.

If you think allowing a 14-year-old to date someone 5 years younger is the parent's decision (as you stated in an earlier post), not the law's, then you DISAGREE with the statutory rape laws, which take away the power of consent from both the teen and his/her parents, and say, "A nineteen-year-old can't fool around with a fourteen-year-old, even if he wants to, and even if his parent thinks it's a beautiful meeting of twin souls."

Again, even if they simply kissed and did not have sex yet, it was illegal in the SPIRIT of the law. If she's in one of twenty states where the A.o.C. is 17 or 18, she's still breaking the law.

posted February 05, 2011 01:18 AM            

I knew a lot of honor student white picket fence goody goody two shoe freshman girls hang out with the bad boy Seniors for popularity.

posted February 05, 2011 01:22 AM            

Encouraging a 14-year-old or 16-year-old to date an adult is NOT a sign of "wonderful" parenting, in my opinion.

Lucia

posted February 05, 2011 02:29 AM            

Randall, I have to say I agree with Lucia. How really is happiness a determining factor of success in a relationship? Especially with one completely inexperienced as a minor? Maybe he wants to eat candy for dinner, if that makes him happy would it be right? Silly, yes, but the happiness factor for a minor is unrealistic as 14,16 yr. old's don't understand all the repercussions & consequences of their actions. It might feel good physically for a 15 year old to have sex yet what about the emotional/mental consequences? Should a parent be happy because their child is happy with satisfying superficial desires?

It's a fact that minors have higher insurance rates because they take more chances driving than adults. They are less prepared for the consequences of their actions. Sex included even though they have the desire or 'maturity' does not mean they can handle it. It is their parents/guardian's responsibility to shield and teach them about the reality of their actions. Check how insurance rates changes from 16 to 21. Insurance stats are well researched and prove the immaturity of minors. Statutory rape laws are in the same spirit of acknowledging minors not prepared to deal with adult actions even though they are capable. Countless cases have proven these facts.

I was 17 when I dated a 24 year old. He was able to manipulate me being so much older and I gave that credence even though things he said didn't make sense. His age dominated my wisdom. I figured, "He knows, he's been there before." Even had sex with no protection as he said he could pull out and that is safe. Thankfully, I didn't get pregnant but this is an example of how stupid an older person can be and the influence they can have over a much younger person. We argued but he won as 'he had more experience' and made me feel stupid. A common theme in these relationships. Older has control over the younger, they know what to say to manipulate. Younger concedes to the more experienced even when it's wrong.

Parents should know this or be aware no matter how proud you are of your children or how wise you think they are, they do not know the ways of the world and need time. They look to you to shield, teach and protect them. There is plenty of time for them to engage in relationships. 14 or 16, even of legal age, is not prepared for a real relationship. Their bodies are not even fully developed, how can we expect their psyches to be?

posted February 05, 2011 02:46 AM            

She writes:

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These 2 have been together for 2 years, and have a typically wonderful relationship...but times are a bit rocky for them right now, and last year split during this time for a few months...I am sure Saturn in Rx had/has something to do with it...I know this relationship is fated, and she has lessons to teach him...I am so new to Astrology, and could really use some help as to what to tell these 2 so they don't end up splitting again...this is not the time for that nonsense....you have to understand 'true love' to understand any of this I suppose...understand the times we are in...that the Earth has so many people here due to the fact that souls are reincarnating here like crazy to help the planet...souls that have been together before, and agreed to meet up again...that's 'soul families' and 'twin flames'....This is a spiritual thing people...not 'another teen with another gf'

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posted February 05, 2011 03:16 AM            

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Society is obsessed with age.

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If society seems obsessed with age, it's only due to the maturity of the individuals. Age isn't "just a number" to anyone in a relationship with a serious age gap. You think age is "just a number" to Catherine Zeta Jones? You don't think the mortality of her husband has been thoroughly discussed and planned for? To avoid such considerations would be folly.

No, I think anyone that has reservations regarding serious age gaps has them due to intelligent foresight or experience. It's only natural to consider such things, and a lack of such consideration should give people pause.

posted February 05, 2011 03:33 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by AcousticGod:
If society seems obsessed with age, it's only due to the maturity of the individuals. Age isn't "just a number" to anyone in a relationship with a serious age gap. You think age is "just a number" to Catherine Zeta Jones? You don't think the mortality of her husband has been thoroughly discussed and planned for? To avoid such considerations would be folly.

No, I think anyone that has reservations regarding serious age gaps has them due to intelligent foresight or experience. It's only natural to consider such things, and a lack of such consideration should give people pause.

The 'happiness' factor is essentially nonsense. Why wouldn't the younger person resent at times their older companion (for a multitude of reasons)? Why wouldn't the older companion be insecure about not being youthful enough? An enduring relationship without these issues is hard enough. These just compound things. The 'happiness' factor is an illusion. It won't make you happy to endure this level of adaptation and compromise. It won't make you happy to persistently have to justify the relationship for yourself, much less the people around you.

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The same way as a interracial relationship, it tooks years for society to wrap their sheepish minds around it especially in this bible belt state I'm in, but committed couples are making it happen and I'm one of those in a commited interracial relationship and those who don't like it or have to question it can move on their merrily little way, because I'm not going to stop loving someone just because "so and so" thinks it's morally wrong.

As for the questioning in the relationship, thats what communication is for.

And ultimately it's up to the "two" people in the end anyways.

I personally think they need to change the age group in high school from 14-20 to 15-17, that way it reinforces the laws.