posted April 23, 2013 05:46 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
WE don't see the connection. But we are not women. I hear all the time about how women date a nice guy, and he is a total wuss who lets her have her way all the time and makes no decisions.

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posted April 23, 2013 05:57 PM            

And that is a sad stereotype that nice guys are seen by men and women as being spineless wussies.

OK,
I would like to see comments of what men and women consider a jerk and consider a nice guy to be like.

posted April 23, 2013 07:38 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by hannaramaa:
Because we do want a nice guy, and the jerk is a nice guy, he's just not ALWAYS nice. Women are verbal, thinkers. Men are instinctual and doers. I think this is why we (I should say "I", not we... god forbid someone assumes I'm speaking for them) are more tolerant of bad behavior because we understand it, so if we're attracted to them and they're not horrible (because that's the spectrum I'm basing my claim on is not beating us, or being verbally abusive or cheating or lying) we let it slide. Men do this to women too.

Furthermore the phantom of being a "nice guy" carried a certain entitlement. As if because men are nice to me they feel entitled to invade my privacy, not respect my choice to date who I want, and lash out passive aggressively when they don't get their way. That's not being a genuinely NICE person. The only reason nice guys see the guys girls date as jerks is because those "jerks" are being themselves whereas nice guys are playing into a stereotype expecting it to work wonders. It's the same as guys who pretend to be jerks because they think more girls will be attracted to them.

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posted April 23, 2013 10:34 PM            

One: she's living up to feminine ideals (as opposed to being true to herself) and that includes dating a jerk because a jerk is living up to masculine ideals (both genders turn out screwed when they try too hard, and the insecure normally will try too hard to live up to idiotic ideals). Adding to the confusion is that males & females tend to mean slightly different things and have different ways of communicating which confuse each other making them both think something is really wrong with the other (though he'll likely get a free pass before she does, especially if she's insecure, even if he's just as insecure), but can sense that the offense or apparent craziness wasn't entirely intentional and thus give each other another chance. Guys also tend to press the issue more so he's likely to win the tug of war in this way as well.

Two: Guys are encouraged to be jerks, even many women give them a pass for it, so that limits the choices as male behavior isn't as policed as women's in daily life (if he cheats all he has to say is, "She was all over me" and it's her fault, not his) so he's not as encouraged to be decent, living up to society's view of what it means to be a man can make him very entitled to boot, and when enough men are that way that limits choices. In addition many of the guys who are jerks are that way openly but show another side to himself with her when he's not scared of losing his "man card" for it so she feels he's trusting her with an secret part making him "misunderstood" rather than a "bad boy." Sometimes this is even true, other times he's just playing her.

Three: Insecure women tend to define their worth by a man so they'll snatch up anyone who can make her feel better about herself. And sometimes this just means he validates her by going with her, he doesn't have to treat her right, these women are typically conditioned to take a lot of crap with a smile. They can and will blow off their friends for such a guy because their friends (who are likely just as insecure) will still be there in the end whereas she has to do a lot more to keep him into her and from "straying" (though there IS brain chemicals that can make one or both obsessed with each other and not to be confused with insecurity).

Of course looks matter (the old, "Good thing you're cute") but not as much as you think. IF looks are as important to women as to men (and I personally don't think that it is and I base that objective data from experiments & brain scans among other things rather than assuming I can read the minds of men to compare & contrast whereas I think most take a subjective view thinking that since she cares about looks then she can understand EXACTLY what he means when he says he cares, but she's wrong because they're not her and she's not them) then women ALSO consider other things important that men don't. That is, looks only get you so far. Of course not looking good does limit your options, especially in the under-30 crowd where about everything, including people, are often seen in terms as an accessory rather than genuine meeting of souls (generally speaking, of course).

There are a lot of women like this, but a lot more who aren't (but the younger they are the more likely they'll be that way).

posted April 23, 2013 11:04 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Odette:
There's no such thing as a nice guy.

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THIS.

Also

Maybe that massive "jerk" and her have a special bond behind doors.
Just because he's obnoxious or dick does not mean he abuses her.
I dated a really grumpy diagnosed narcissist once, I have to say it was very interesting and amusing experience.
I loved having a go at him and seeing him blow up over small things.
We just drifted part.
I tend to like disturbed individuals, they intrigue me.

I liked the idea of fixing them... idk

posted April 23, 2013 11:51 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Kerosene:
THIS.

Also

Maybe that massive "jerk" and her have a special bond behind doors.
Just because he's obnoxious or dick does not mean he abuses her.
I dated a really grumpy diagnosed narcissist once, I have to say it was very interesting and amusing experience.
I loved having a go at him and seeing him blow up over small things.
We just drifted part.
I tend to like disturbed individuals, they intrigue me.

I liked the idea of fixing them... idk

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posted April 24, 2013 04:01 AM            

It's more typical or common of a woman to have a desire to be protected by a man.. (rather than vice versa).
I think this is just instinctually normal - based on being a mammal.. and based on the fact that males (in most species) have greater physical strength & usually are the ones to fight intruders and protect their pack..

So because of this desire - I think a lot of women would be attracted to men they assess as being *strong* people.
But everyone's definition of strength can be different.
For instance - a woman with a Scorpio Mars might define strength as "emotional/sexual intensity". A woman with a Capricorn Mars - like myself would define strength as financial or political/social strength. A woman with a Gemini Mars could define it as 'intellectual strength'. A woman with an Aries Mars could define it as *physical* strength or sexual prowess.

If a woman sees a man as strong..... If he is "strong" in her eyes... then of course she is more likely to be attracted.

But the classic definition of "bad boy" involves a kind of behaviour... that MANY women out there would never associate with strength.

A bad boy, as I've mentioned on other threads where this was brought up - is a *BOY*.. and he is boy-ish... and in a sense, not really capable of *grown up* behaviour.

A woman who would be attracted to this kind of boy (a 'naughty' boy..) would either - want to play a motherly role and nag him every day about his behaviour (this is the motherly type) - OR - she would have low self esteem and think she does not deserve to be treated any better by men & also that men who are *actually* strong people would not like her: she wouldn't be good enough for them........... OR.......... she would have a distorted definition of "masculine strength", so in her eyes she might assess bad-boy behaviour as a "strength" (this is the father-issues type!)

quote:

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they date who they are attracted to

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Yes... but they are attracted to *strength*... There is a world of difference between being a -strong man-.. and being a "bad boy.
A confident, mature woman would be attracted to a -strong man-... not a "bad boy"... or a good boy for that matter.. or any other kind of 'boy'.

If the girl in question simply does not understand what *real* strength is... then she might get confused and think that someone taking stabs at her or misbehaving and being generally bad-boyish - is a strong person.. but this couldn't be further from the truth.

posted April 24, 2013 07:36 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Odette:
- OR - she would have low self esteem and think she does not deserve to be treated any better by men & also that men who are *actually* strong people would not like her: she wouldn't be good enough for them...........

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I have experienced this, at least on the level of her thinking she doesn't deserve me.

I know there is nothing I can do, I can't magically make her think she deserves me, I cannot explain to her why I think she does, and I cannot change her own self view, worth, and opinion.

I know we have all met people in general, the easiest example is someone who doesn't trust/believe in xyz for one isolated incident in the past. Our own behavioural self imposed conditioning, is the hardest to break down. It is meant to keep us safe, but sometimes it can keep us from living.

Change, comes from within.

- Chris

posted April 24, 2013 07:59 AM            

"Nice Guy" = Thoughts

Jerk = Biology

Result

Nice Guy - Heart - Jerk

posted April 24, 2013 09:47 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Randall:
My hypothesis is that they date who they are attracted to, and let's face it, most nice guys are pushovers, and that's not attractive. So, sometimes women have to trade off and loosely tolerate some unacceptable behavior in order to be with someone whom they have attraction for. True? Not true? I really lucked out with my gf, because she actually prefers nice guys. But could that be a cultural thing? Charmaine is from South Africa. My hypothesis is made with US women in mind. Chime in.

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This is a great question and I think the answer is not as obvious as it seems, or as simple.

I think woman who were abused "want" to be abused. They don't "want" to be abused consciously but it is what is familiar.

Pain, abuse and love are all mixed into a terrible kind of soup, if you will. When these woman are attracted to someone, the old feelings of this mixture play into it.

That is my opinion and I am not saying it happens in all cases, but in some.

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted April 24, 2013 02:43 PM            

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Passion, Lust, Desire. Check out my journal

posted April 24, 2013 03:01 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Ceridwen:
Are all women the same?
What is a bad guy, what is a nice guy, what is a jerk?
I need clear definitions before I can even start thinking of an answer.

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Are all women the same? No way! In fact, I would say all women are different in many ways.